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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 1:00:30 PM

cloudboy

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 1:29:36 PM

MsMacComb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

One who places their safety in someone else so hung up on the details you mentioned just graduated from being foolish to being a royal jackass.

One who resorts to insult and name calling has no other argument and by definition is the loser of that argument. Pity!

Years ago I was at a thing watching a demo. A new female sub with an incompetent "master" was using a whip (supposed to be on her bottom) and it kept wrapping around striking her in the under belly,ribs, near her mons etc. She was afraid (being new and in public) to say anything.
I know of a lady that was blindfolded standing free (not tethered or bound) and as anyone *should* know after a time some people will experience a form of vertigo. She did, she fell and hit her head on the corner of a coffee table.
No doubt there are couples or individuals that are knowledgeable and trustworthy. I feel sure that you in your life would be one of those wherein absolute trust could be placed. But this thread is about newbies, those in training whom ESPECIALLY (examples above) should feel comfortable and confident to use safewords or speak out. If months or years down the road individuals choose to use no safewords thats up to them. New people (novices) come here looking for guidance and direction and while there are many people here that lend good advice I have seen few sites that have other members that could not be more full of bullshit. Its irresponsible to advise people new to the scene to place 100% trust in someone they may barely know.
Foolish and jackass? Yes, I stand by my comment and opinion. If you think its important to me to "win" arguments here than that itself is the true pity.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 2:40:18 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: moon69

Hmmmmmm, interesting..... no safe words...... well I guess we'll see you (unfortunately) on the nightly news later on. Hope not......

Quite seriously, can you please provide me one example (that you, yourself, were either involved in or personally witnessed) where a safeword would have worked better than plain old fashioned communication, that did not involve resistance or role play?

Safewords are not some magic asbestos that prevents people from exploding onto the nightly news...

Taggard

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 2:41:23 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Foolish and jackass? Yes, I stand by my comment and opinion. If you think its important to me to "win" arguments here than that itself is the true pity.

As I do mine even after all your backpedaling post.

It's speaking in absolutes that the fool is established when their own words are held up for comparison. For example; "A sub (novice or veteran) who is with a master/mistress that doesn't allow safewords is being foolish. A master/mistress who doesn't insist on safewords is irresponsible." Yet a few posts later allows for "No doubt there are couples or individuals that are knowledgeable and trustworthy. I feel sure that you in your life would be one of those wherein absolute trust could be placed." I believe both quotes are accurately copied. Which absolute side of the argument, just for discussion and not for debating or "winning", do you stand behind? I view them to be mutually exclusive.

I saw you as a potential source for the issue of control in a relationship or a scene. I'll stipulate to the implied safety net a safe-word, provides a novice, but won't change my position that time and personal knowledge of your partner serves the purpose better. Outside that context, tell me how a relationship, who has a safe-word as it's dogma, is in the control of the "master/dominant"? Regardless of his/her emotional/physical state is at the time, when a submissive safe-words in a scene - it's over. In that context, an "absolute" position is implied. Give me a condition where that is incorrect?

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 3:18:32 PM

MsMacComb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
As I do mine even after all your backpedaling post.
It's speaking in absolutes that the fool is established when their own words are held up for comparison. For example; "A sub (novice or veteran) who is with a master/mistress that doesn't allow safewords is being foolish. A master/mistress who doesn't insist on safewords is irresponsible." Yet a few posts later allows for "No doubt there are couples or individuals that are knowledgeable and trustworthy. I feel sure that you in your life would be one of those wherein absolute trust could be placed." I believe both quotes are accurately copied. Which absolute side of the argument, just for discussion and not for debating or "winning", do you stand behind? I view them to be mutually exclusive.

I saw you as a potential source for the issue of control in a relationship or a scene. I'll stipulate to the implied safety net a safe-word, provides a novice, but won't change my position that time and personal knowledge of your partner serves the purpose better. Outside that context, tell me how a relationship, who has a safe-word as it's dogma, is in the control of the "master/dominant"? Regardless of his/her emotional/physical state is at the time, when a submissive safe-words in a scene - it's over. In that context, an "absolute" position is implied. Give me a condition where that is incorrect?

Backpedaling? I think not. I stated that I am sure there are cases where this happens. I still think its a foolish thing and even more so for others to advise people that its the right thing to do. You notice by my acknowledging that it happens is not the same as my advocating it.
As to the second part that is where we have a difference in the entire practice. The sub is ALWAYS in charge regardless if others wish to pretend otherwise. If the sub does not consent to the intial scene, the arrangment, the relationship and does not freely give up the power to be dominated, then what you have is domestic violence. Consent is the operative word. Some people get all hung up on the power dynamic of this which is really a bit of a waste of time.
Answer this for me please. Your walking down the street. You see an attractive woman that you would like to be with and dominate. Do you just walk up to her, throw her down, or push her to her knees and make her blow you? Or whip her? Or tie her up? I would hope not. You would be in jail for a long time and rightfully so as some acts that may occur are known as rape. So whats the difference between that and if you were to do the same thing with your wife or some other *willing* participant? Ahh, *willing* as in they gave consent. Without that consent it would be morally wrong and illegal. So who has the power? You could be married for 40 years and have *absolute* control during that time. But one day your wife pops up and says "No more". Do you still have control, did you ever? Or was it that she extended to you this gift of *allowing* you to exert control?
You know there are some absolutes in this world. Death for one. Speaking in absolutes is not a bad thing if its correct.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 3:35:38 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

You know there are some absolutes in this world. Death for one. Speaking in absolutes is not a bad thing if its correct.

In those statements I agree whole heartily. The rest...and especially; "The sub is ALWAYS in charge", I take the 180 degree position.

But therein lies the basis of our disagreement. And it's a much better point to debate than name calling. It's also one where absolute doesn't apply. Perspective and a huge dash of rationalization provides an valid argument on either side. For those that need that final grasp at personal power implying control, as either a sub or the Dominant, I guess there needs to be feeling of being "in charge". There is no absolute in the argument if beth allows me to spank her or I spank her whenever I want because I can and do. In our situation we don't believe in either side of the argument.

We have our own "rationalization" supporting neither position - the "RELATIONSHIP" is in charge. No need to agree or disagree, because our perspectives won't be changed.

quote:

Your walking down the street. You see an attractive woman that you would like to be with and dominate. Do you just walk up to her, throw her down, or push her to her knees and make her blow you? Or whip her? Or tie her up?

No-but given the opportunity to chat and get to know her during a fine dinner, she may beg me for the privilege or I may decide she's not worthy of it. In the case of the former, I wouldn't, while I trained her allow her a safe word, or make her ever feel she needed one.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 3:55:55 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
He when then interogate, torture, and play with the sub asking the same question over and over until she could take no more and gave the answer, thus ending the scene.

Being asked the same question over and over again sounds like torture!

*grins

- LA

It is!!!

Recalls the question in young whinny voices......"ARE WE THERE YET!!!?

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 4:25:41 PM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jillwfsub4blkdom

I was curious as to whether a slave in training should be allowed to use the safeword?

While I know opinion on what a slave is or is not varies greatly among posters here, I will say that for myself I do not believe one should undertake true slave training with partial resolve—much less as a skittish novice. If one is entering conditioning and training as a slave, a certain choice has been made, and clarity of forethought about slavery and what it entails should pervade one's understanding of it. Safe words should seem moot.

If, on the other hand, you are training under the title as it is usually digested in mainstream BDSM, negotiate, be safe, sane and consensual and use however many safe words you need.

< Message edited by amayos -- 5/3/2006 4:27:20 PM >

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 4:31:35 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Since then, I have spoken to many bottoms and many have said that during play they have not used a safeword when they wanted to communicate discomfort because 1) they forgot the word 2) they were in subspace and wen't non-verbal or 3) they felt that using a safeword was a failure. What could possibly be less safe than a system where the one giving the pain is relying on the bottom to safeword when they have had enough, and the bottom refuses to give that signal because they feel like it would be a failure.

Relying on the bottom to use there safe word is nothing more than a Top refusing to take responsibility for the consequences of play. Relying on the bottom to use their safe words is like the Top twisting the bottom's arm until they scream "uncle". Highly stupid in my opinion. Like Taggart has stated and for many other reasons, bottoms will fail to use safewords on many many occassions. Frankly bottoms are often not even in the best of conditions to effectively judge their state and if play should continue, stop or just pause.

What is wrong with a Top actually relying on themselves. What is wrong with a Top judging and assessing the condition and situation of a scene and deciding if play should stop, continue or pause. What is wrong with a Top actually taking responsibility for the actions they do.

I do not Rely on a bottom to use safe words. I rely on myself to make sound judgements that is based on experience and knowledge of the people I play or played with. So many lose themselves in the need and want of safe words and really loose the point of what they are for. To Communicate! However, often communicating by the bottom can become limited or even non-existent. Often, the bottom's ability to judge their condition is actually impaired and not something to be relied on. I suggest to anyone that plays is to learn to watch for Triggers or flags of concerns. But also watch for Triggers or flags of enjoyment. These Triggers/Flags are not universal. I have played with more that a few people and everyone is going to be different to some degree or another.

I agree with Taggart that simple open clear communication is much more effective than formalized safe words. But even more important is a Top that actually relies on themself and and takes the responsibility to decide if play should continue, stop or pause.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 5:16:21 PM

CreativeDominant

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[Tahoma]I use safewords. I tend to use either the "Red, Yellow, Green" or, like TallDarkWitty, will use "Yes, Stop, ouch". I will also monitor the submissive's body and reactions. To me, though, is another point that I have not seen mentioned yet.

Yes, there do have to be safewords of some sort in place and yes, a dominant needs to pay attention to his/her submissive. But even those things being in place and adhered to does not help sometimes. You also have to be paying attention to what may be key points discussed in pre-scene conversation. Back when I was new, I played with a submissive in a corporal-type scene. I spanked her and paddled her and flogged her and cropped her and you get the idea. Before the scene, we had negotiated safewords. The scene started and I'm listening closely and paying close attention to her skin and her reactions, etc., etc.. When I ended the scene (about an hour later and after achieving a nice shade of red), I spent an hour or so with her in aftercare. The next day, she called me in tears because of the pain from the bruising. She was angry and she was hurt. In the anxiety to have safewords and to closely monitor her and the excitement of the scene, I had forgotten that she had not only told me that she is "stoic" and does not like safewords but also that she does not "color" up easily and by the time she does, she is going to be heavily bruised the next day and NOT in good pain.

Would a safeword have helped? I think so. Should I have paid more attention to her body and her reactions? I watched closely...no coloring up, a submissive arching and moaning in pleasure while pushing their ass back towards the one inflicting the pain. And I gave the pain until she was a nice shade of red.
Too late...what I also should have done was remember what I had learned in our earlier conversation leading up to the scene.

I learned. Not the way I would have preferred, but I did learn. I immediately started listening intently to the whole pre-scene conversation and not just the part about safewords and the submissive's reactions to various things (as she perceives them). I've started listening to things brought up in other conversations that, though the conversation may not be pre-scene, may come in very handy at some future time.[/Tahoma]

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 5:27:58 PM

yourMissTress

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I agree that safewords are not the be all and end all of safety in BDSM play. Safewords are only as good as the people using them.  The bottom must use them if necessary and the top must honor them.

Having and playing with safewords is a far cry from relying solely on them as a measure of the subs well being.  Implying that having a safeword takes any responsibility at all from the Dom/me is quite insulting. I pay incredibly close attention to anyone I'm playing with.  And I take full responsibility for anything that happens during a scene, regardless of the sub and the safeword.

I play with a lot of people on a casual level, and a few people on an intimate level.  I prefer that people I play with on a casual level have every opportunity to let Me know if something is wrong.

As always, YMMV.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 5:39:45 PM

KnightofMists

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maybe you should actually read what I said... and not read into it implications that I didn't make..

If you feel that those implications are there... MAYBE just MAYBE you should actually ask! instead of getting all insulted over nothing but your own perception that is well beyond what I said and actually not anything to do with what I actually said.

I simple state.. A Top's RELIANCE on a Bottom to use Safe Words IS STUPID!

I do not make any implication or comment on how one should use safewords or those that do. In fact, I haven't even indicated here if I use them or not.....

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 5/3/2006 5:41:01 PM >

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 6:10:35 PM

sylphgossamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Since then, I have spoken to many bottoms and many have said that during play they have not used a safeword when they wanted to communicate discomfort because 1) they forgot the word 2) they were in subspace and wen't non-verbal or 3) they felt that using a safeword was a failure. What could possibly be less safe than a system where the one giving the pain is relying on the bottom to safeword when they have had enough, and the bottom refuses to give that signal because they feel like it would be a failure.

Relying on the bottom to use there safe word is nothing more than a Top refusing to take responsibility for the consequences of play. Relying on the bottom to use their safe words is like the Top twisting the bottom's arm until they scream "uncle". Highly stupid in my opinion. Like Taggart has stated and for many other reasons, bottoms will fail to use safewords on many many occassions. Frankly bottoms are often not even in the best of conditions to effectively judge their state and if play should continue, stop or just pause.

What is wrong with a Top actually relying on themselves. What is wrong with a Top judging and assessing the condition and situation of a scene and deciding if play should stop, continue or pause. What is wrong with a Top actually taking responsibility for the actions they do.

I do not Rely on a bottom to use safe words. I rely on myself to make sound judgements that is based on experience and knowledge of the people I play or played with. So many lose themselves in the need and want of safe words and really loose the point of what they are for. To Communicate! However, often communicating by the bottom can become limited or even non-existent. Often, the bottom's ability to judge their condition is actually impaired and not something to be relied on. I suggest to anyone that plays is to learn to watch for Triggers or flags of concerns. But also watch for Triggers or flags of enjoyment. These Triggers/Flags are not universal. I have played with more that a few people and everyone is going to be different to some degree or another.

I agree with Taggart that simple open clear communication is much more effective than formalized safe words. But even more important is a Top that actually relies on themself and and takes the responsibility to decide if play should continue, stop or pause.

yes, yes, and yes to the words of both of these very wise men.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 7:07:40 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Would a safeword have helped? I think so.

Ok, you lost me... Unless I am not following your story, you had safewords...they didn't help.

quote:

I immediately started listening intently to the whole pre-scene conversation and not just the part about safewords

And that is what should be taught to novices...pay attention to the person, not the safewords.

I think you proved my point.

Taggard

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 7:12:03 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress
I prefer that people I play with on a casual level have every opportunity to let Me know if something is wrong.

And how does forcing a novice to learn a new way of communication increase the opportunities for communication? So much more can be conveyed with regular English language, so why not, at least with novices, start there?

It seems, to me, that people actually think the process of converting from (in the bottom's mind) "stop" to "red" and then converting back (in the top's mind) from "red" to "stop" is a good thing, and makes play safer...

I just don't get it.

Taggard

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 8:32:14 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

While I know opinion on what a slave is or is not varies greatly among posters here, I will say that for myself I do not believe one should undertake true slave training with partial resolve—much less as a skittish novice.

Hey now...I resembled that remark! Remember the mosquito? ;)

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/3/2006 9:48:22 PM

yourMissTress

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Actually, KOM, I wasn't offended by a single thing you said, I hit fast reply and yours was the last response on the board at the time I did it. I was replying in general to the thread. I am a bit surprised that you would become so upset and I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I usually will state that I'm using fast reply just so things like this don't happen. I won't forget again.

Taggard, I am not asking anyone to learn a new language by telling them that when they say "stop" I am going to. Now, I also didn't mention that I talk with them continually during a first, second, and sometimes even third scene and we are communicating, and it's not in code, pig-latin, or any other language but English.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/5/2006 7:24:36 PM

johnxinxscruz

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This discussion reads like an argument between people who aren't actually arguing _against_ each other, but with each other's terminologies.

A) No Communication of any kind -- everyone seems to agree that this is bad.

B) Safewords -- a form of "shorthand for communication", and everyone seems to agree that this is generally better than (A).

C) Full Communication -- a few people (Taggart originally, and Knight of Mists) are asserting that this is generally better than safewords (a statement that I would agree with, even though I've not been to a point of it being relevant), and that reliance upon safewords has problems.

The people who seem to be arguing with the people making assertion (C) seem to be mistaking that position with assertion (A). They see "safewords don't solve the problem" as meaning "don't communicate at all", yet no one backing assertion (C) has made any statement even close to that (that I have seen). They are arguing for something better than safewords, not a lack of communication.

And, psychology is on their side in their statements about safewords. The statement one person made about "the bottom having to translate from stop to red, and then the top having to translate from red back to stop, instead of the bottom just saying stop" is spot on. Speaking generally: signals should be straight forward, direct, and to the point. Otherwise, they will go unused and/or ignored because the extra cognitive bits in the process confuse or short-circuit the process. In essence, code words inhibit communication instead of enhancing it. What's more straight forward, direct, and to the point than using the actual word you mean? No means no, stop means stop. Say what you actually mean, and listen to what is actually being said.

(and, as has been stated, the exception is when you're getting in to certain kinds of role-play)

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/5/2006 7:34:08 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear jillwfsub4blkdom, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I think novice slaves/submissives feel they are less than a slave/sub if they don't bully or tough it out what the Dominant dishes out. That isn't learning submission, that is being reckless. The idea is to touch your limit on all things, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual and challenge yourself.

Submission isn't an endurance race, see how much your body can take pain or injuries. Submission is not a competition. Submission is not an excuse to make it ok to batter yourself/beat yourself up inside even more and or to validate low self esteem.

Safe words/Safe codes aren't dirty words. It is merely another form of communication when words fail to express what you mean.

Use them when necessary--not to avoid the situation and or deny it exists.

I highly recommend safe words/safe codes.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 5/6/2006 3:29:51 AM

barbiealto

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A person who calls himself ' Dom' and yet does not observe safewords, to my mind is NOT Dom , does NOT understand BDSM and does NOT adhere to safe sane and consensual.
I would not stay with such a person as I would fear for my safety ..... been there ,done that, worn the T shirt...... and left the guy

barbs

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