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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 5:46:22 PM   
MsBearlee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
 
When a carb goes into your body, they all pretty much turn into glucose, except for fiber, I believe.  

That's what I read too, Level.  All carbs become glucose...and ya poop the fiber!  That's why it's good to eat good, complex carbs; which offer some nutrition with their 'harder to convert' sugar. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: LeMis

I bought some Pepperidge Farm "Light Style" 7 grain bread.  The nutritional info is for 3 slices, I usually eat 1 slice when I want something bread-like.  (Although tonight I had 2 slices to make a chicken sandwich) 


Okay, I looked up "Multi-grain, reduced calorie or high fiber Bread" on www.fitday.com: 

Amount Per 1 regular slice
Calories 52.52:      Calories from Fat 5.38

                                   % Daily Value *

Total Fat:    0.598g                 1%

Saturated Fat 0.0905g           0%    
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.288g        
Monounsaturated Fat 0.0915g


Cholesterol 2.6mg                   1%

Sodium 132.6mg                     6%

Potassium 45.24mg                1%

Total Carbohydrate 11.54g    4%
Dietary Fiber 3.12g                 12%

Protein 2.31g                          5%


okay...that's PER slice.  Seriously better than white bread; but still...


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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 5:50:01 PM   
MsBearlee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

On zero carbs: there are those that feel that is optimal.

...  http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm  


A fabulously interesting article, Level, thank you for sharing (again). 
 
I like to follow links-off-links...and sometimes get lost for hours
 
...but I learn a lot! 

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 5:57:26 PM   
LeMis


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Status: offline 		OK, but here is the nutitional info on the package that I use:


Pepperidge Farm® Fresh Breads & Rolls
Light Style Seven Grain

Amount per Serving   (serving size) =   3 Slices

Calories 130
Sugars 3g
Total Fat 1g
Protein 7g
Sat. Fat 0g
Trans Fat 0g
Cholesterol 0mg
Sodium 270mg
Total Carb. 26g      
Dietary Fiber 4g


AGAIN...
serving size is 3 slices....

< Message edited by LeMis -- 1/6/2008 5:58:19 PM >

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 6:14:20 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGenie
I happen to fully read as well as write and conduct medical studies of my own. My how presumptous some are without knowing what one does for a living, their background or where their information comes from, though I said Duke and Stanford studies among others.


If you do not wish to be mistaken for a poorly informed layperson, it is inadvisable to post like one.  I do not know any academic who would offer a cite like "go look at the Duke and Sanford studies".   That's not a cite, that's a huge red flag that proclaims the poster a layperson who does not understand what he is referring to or how to refer to it.  So perhaps the misidentification was understandable.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is at risk of getting shot and served with orange sauce. 


quote:

Long term NO carb diets will eventually burn muscle tissue. I also stated long ago in this thread that I am a low carb freak for my own health issues. I am not dissing the plan merely pointing out a factor which has not, as of yet, been refuted by any major medical study of a no carbohydrate diet.


*blink*   No one here has been discussing a no carb diet, except in the example I brought up anecdotally involving some hunter-gatherer cultures from extreme Nothern latitudes who remained in ketosis year-round.  Even they do not subsist on a zero carb diet, as they consume glycogen from liver stores and the stomach contents of grazers.  Due to the large amounts of protein and fat in the diet, the effect tends to be protein-sparing, and there is no evidence that the Inuit or similar groups "burn muscle tissue" as a result of their extremely low carb (and sometimes effectively no carb) diet. 

As to your suggestion that it has not been refuted by any study, that's simply not true.  A fair number of studies have been done on the Inuit diet, and they are not in the least difficult to find through PubMed among other sources.  Here's a convenient link to this paper on ketogenic diets and physical performance, with a number of useful cites at the bottom.  To address the specific issue of athletic performance and building or retaining lean body mass on a standard ketogenic diet, I would suggest the works of Dan Duchaine and Lyle McDonald.

However no one here was talking about a no carb diet, which is why people are wondering how well you understand what is being talked about.

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 6:17:44 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
On zero carbs: there are those that feel that is optimal.


If you can get reindeer and seal blubber, or at least wild game and fish and all organic grass fed meat, great.  Otherwise, you'll need to tweak the diet some to account for the radically different fatty acid profiles in modern farmed meats.

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 6:27:18 PM   
Vendaval


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Great discussion topic everyone.  Good luck with your new lifestyle changes and thank you for all the links and information!
 
Vendaval

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 6:27:20 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
On zero carbs: there are those that feel that is optimal.


If you can get reindeer and seal blubber, or at least wild game and fish and all organic grass fed meat, great.  Otherwise, you'll need to tweak the diet some to account for the radically different fatty acid profiles in modern farmed meats.


Yum yum, blubber

Yes, the fats are different in the grass fed as opposed to the grain fed meat, but what tweaking would you do?

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 6:57:55 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Yes, the fats are different in the grass fed as opposed to the grain fed meat, but what tweaking would you do?


Drop or eliminate fat consumption from grain fed modern farmed animals, and substitute olive oil, fish oil, flax oil, nuts, avocados, etc.  Avoid trans fats, processed fats and dairy fat.  If you are on a standard ketogenic diet, you will be eating liberally of fats, so it is also worthwhile to work on getting your hands on organic grass fed beef and/or wild game.

Atkins works even if you do eat animal fats from less than optimal sources, but in the long term, recent studies suggest you could run into some trouble that way. 


< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 1/6/2008 6:58:44 PM >

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 7:11:10 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Yes, the fats are different in the grass fed as opposed to the grain fed meat, but what tweaking would you do?


Drop or eliminate fat consumption from grain fed modern farmed animals, and substitute olive oil, fish oil, flax oil, nuts, avocados, etc.  Avoid trans fats, processed fats and dairy fat.  If you are on a standard ketogenic diet, you will be eating liberally of fats, so it is also worthwhile to work on getting your hands on organic grass fed beef and/or wild game.

Atkins works even if you do eat animal fats from less than optimal sources, but in the long term, recent studies suggest you could run into some trouble that way. 



I would agree that grass fed is healthier, but I'm not sure I'd agree with the trouble down the road, with grain fed. Or, I should say, that the benefits of low carbing, even on a supply of grain fed meat, so far exceeds the standard carb-laden diet, that it's worth the doing anway.



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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 7:18:04 PM   
MsBearlee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Yes, the fats are different in the grass fed as opposed to the grain fed meat, but what tweaking would you do?


Drop or eliminate fat consumption from grain fed modern farmed animals, and substitute olive oil, fish oil, flax oil, nuts, avocados, etc.  Avoid trans fats, processed fats and dairy fat.  If you are on a standard ketogenic diet, you will be eating liberally of fats, so it is also worthwhile to work on getting your hands on organic grass fed beef and/or wild game.

Atkins works even if you do eat animal fats from less than optimal sources, but in the long term, recent studies suggest you could run into some trouble that way.   


I have been reading about CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid) which is found mostly in dairy products and meat.  CLA is a trans fat, but not harmful like other trans fatty acids.  CLA, is produced by microorganisms in the rumen of ruminants, but, non-ruminants (such as humans), are able to produce some isomers of CLA, which are then converted to CLA; ...and studies show this little production is responsible for a tendency for reduced body fat (particularly abdominal fat), changes in serum total lipids and decreased whole body glucose uptake.  Awesome, huh?
 
So now, CLA is a popular dietary supplement that is sold with claims of helping people lose fat, maintain weight loss, retain lean muscle mass, and control type 2 diabetes -- the type of diabetes that is often associated with obesity.  In small studies involving animals, CLA has been shown to prevent heart disease and several types of cancer (and all three stages). It also appears to enhance the immune system.
 
What I find interesting as hell is research conducted since 1999 shows that grazing animals have from 3-5 times more CLA than animals fattened on grain in a feedlot. Simply switching from grain fed to grass fed products can greatly increase your intake of CLA!  Here is more interesting information regarding the difference in grain and grass fed livestock: http://www.nwhealth.edu/healthyu/eatWell/grassfed.html
 
Okay…I’m gonna try to keep it ‘lite’ here…and stop now.  But, I’m gonna look for leaner cuts of meat and use even more olive oil.  I mean it, too! 
 
Beverly

edited for readability.

< Message edited by MsBearlee -- 1/6/2008 7:23:35 PM >

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 7:27:06 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		As with many things, the grass fed meat can be quite a bit costlier than the grain fed. We have a good store nearby, I get grass fed steaks and ground beef there.

And the grass feds are generally antibiotic and hormone free, I believe.

< Message edited by Level -- 1/6/2008 7:29:00 PM >

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RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/6/2008 7:47:31 PM   
MsBearlee


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Status: offline 		From:  http://www.mercola.com/beef/cla.htm:
 
CLA is a fatty acid found in beef and dairy fats. Scientific interest in CLA was stimulated in 1988 when a University of Wisconsin researcher discovered its antioxidant properties in a study of rats fed fried hamburger. CLA cannot be produced by the human body, but it can be obtained through foods such as whole milk, butter, beef, and lamb.
 
"The interesting thing is that dairy cattle that graze produce higher amounts of CLA in their milk than those which receive conserved feed, such as grain, hay, and silage," says Agricultural Research dairy scientist Larry Satter. This is true even when the non-grazers eat pasture grass conserved as hay.
 
Satter, who is based at the Dairy Forage Research Center in Madison, Wisconsin, conducted a study comparing the amount of CLA in milk from cows grazing on pasture to the amount from cows fed hay or silage.   His findings: Pasture-grazed cows had 500% more CLA in their milk than those fed silage (grain).
Larry Satter is at the USDA-ARS U.S. Dairy Forage Research Center,
1950 Linden Lane, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706;
phone (608) 264-5353, fax (608) 264-5147.
 
CLA may be one of the most potent antioxidant substances in our diet.
 
In animal studies, as little as one half of one percent CLA in the diet showed promising health benefits. 
 
More here:  http://www.westonaprice.org/farming/splendor.html
 
More about CLA and the difference in grain and grass fed meat:
 

http://www.eatwild.com/cla.html

  •  http://thyroid.about.com/cs/dietweightloss/a/cla.htm http://www.datecreekranch.com/healthybeef.php 
    http://www.footstepsfarm.com/docs/grassfed.pdf 
    http://americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_fed_beef
    Yeah...I find the same thing to be true about grass-feed or 'free-range' beef and other animals we eat.  But, it's no wonder the cattle-men keep a few out of the feed-lots for their own... I remember watching that little tid-bit come out some 30 years ago in a discussion between a rancher and a vegan.  Funny, huh?
     
    But hey, now we can buy CLA tablets! 

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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 5:52:47 AM   
    MsBearlee


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    Status: offline     		Kewl, LeMis... thanks for the information.  I in no way meant to challenge you or the product you talked about.  www.FitDay.com didn't have your 'brand' listed; I just went with 'generic'.  Still, if there are that many carbs in 3 slices; I'd call a 'serving' only one. 
     
    I used to read labels for fat and sugar; this whole carb thing is new to me...especially where folks calculate 'total carbs' or 'real carbs' or whatever.  Still, if you take the 26g of carb and divide by the 3 slices; you DO have more carbs per slice of bread than is a teaspoonful of sugar (even if you credit the protein)!  Granted, with all that protein, it's gotta be better for ya!
     
    I appreciate your sharing that perhaps there IS some bread that is better than others.
     
    Level, I wanted to ask two things of you:
    1. What do the Revolution Rolls taste like <shudders>
    2. Why is it you stay below 40g carbohydrates daily; are you still interested in Ketosis after all the weight you've already lost?  Why?

    Thanks again, everybody!!!

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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 6:56:24 AM   
    SeeksOnlyOne


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    Status: offline     		be sure to read ingredient labels also about breads and anything that claims to be whole grain, making sure that is the first ingredient listed.

    a question for some of you that have been doing the low carb for a while......how has it affected your cholesterol level, if at all? 

    and thanks for this thread-you have saved me SO much googling.

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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 7:21:46 AM   
    backseatbebe


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    Status: offline     		anyone have any low carb cereal suggestions
    as i can always find high fiber, just not low carb

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    Profile   Post #: 135
    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 7:33:02 AM   
    EvilGenie


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: EvilGenie

    I happen to fully read as well as write and conduct medical studies of my own. My how presumptous some are without knowing what one does for a living, their background or where their information comes from, though I said Duke and Stanford studies among others. I have kept much of my career as a personal matter and decided not to publicise it on CM. Long term NO carb diets will eventually burn muscle tissue. I also stated long ago in this thread that I am a low carb freak for my own health issues. I am not dissing the plan merely pointing out a factor which has not, as of yet, been refuted by any major medical study of a no carbohydrate diet.

    **edited to add: Just as a by the way, I read medical studies not articles in magazines. This means medical journals and the studies/information contained therein. 


    Right.  It would seem to me that HAD you done so, you'd know the plans we are discussing here are NOT no-carb; not a single one of them.
     
    You offer a lot, but never seem to come through with much; no recipes, no links, no support, no reality.  Generally folks who cannot walk their talk are not well received; yanno?  How odd you insist you both read and write medical studies...and yet missed that part.
     
    YOU are the one who mentioned the Duke and Stanford studies on this topic...and seem not to have read them throughly enough to catch that the diets we are discussing are, again, NOT no-carb.  Maybe you're too busy, like you said.  Perhaps you should read the 'condensed' versions...you know; to save time.
     
    B


    I have posted 3 links here, am trying to post the recipes though I had to do a complete wipe out and reinstall of my computer and am just now replacing my informational discs I removed from this computer, I don't even have my photos on here yet.. I am ill though recovering and directly after I offered the recipes I became more ill.

    I also never said that ''anyone'' here is doing a no carbohydrate diet though there are more than 3 people either discussing or watching this thread. As I have nothing to offer I shall leave you all to it.

    Be Well and Best of Luck,

    EG

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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 7:36:16 AM   
    MsBearlee


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    Correct me if I'm wrong...but generally grain, flour + sugar = high carbs.  THAT would be why the AMA has done Americans such a disservice by saying have a bowl of good cereal, a piece of toast (dry) and a glass of OJ for breakfast!  I think they've finally conceded a cheese omelet and vegetable juice would be MUCH better.  Or, how ‘bout a porkchop smothered in onions and some fresh-frozen blueberries on the side?  Heaven!!!
     
    The cardiologists (especially the ones who publish books), are finally convincing the AMA that fat is not evil, that protein and MODERATE carbs are the way to stay healthy.  A bowl of cereal is likely high enough in carbs to max ya out for the day.  I’d rather get my carbs from salads and vegetables and a bit of fruit. 
     
    B

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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 7:36:29 AM   
    lauren0221


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: backseatbebe

    anyone have any low carb cereal suggestions
    as i can always find high fiber, just not low carb


    They seem to be hard to find. Netrition.com does have some hot and cold lower carb cereals.


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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 7:37:33 AM   
    MsBearlee


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    Thank you.

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    RE: High Protein, Low Carb Diet - 1/7/2008 7:41:33 AM   
    MsBearlee


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lauren0221

    They seem to be hard to find. Netrition.com does have some hot and cold lower carb cereals.  


    LOL   You spell like I do, lauren!  I'm betting that is www.Nutrition.com  I'll have to check it out.
     
    www.FitDay.com is free to register and has awesome tools available when you do register.  Including a carb counter with some cereals, etc. listed.  Like the bread thang though, none of 'em can list them all.
     
    This is so great...thank you for all the cool questions; some I had not considered!  As far as helping others with information...it sure does lead to some LONG posts; after seeing that thread regarding long posts...it makes me cringe when I leave 'em.
     
    Beverly

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