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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 10:23:11 AM

missunderstood88

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
My list:

1- No adam's apple

I'm working on the rest.

You must use very elaborate and carefully-fitted collars, if an adam's apple would interfere with the proper fit. =D

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Post #: 81

RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 12:20:52 PM

fornowimjustlook

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

quote:

I have noticed that people who jump into relationships without bothering to take the trouble to find out if the person they are jumping with has the qualities they desire are soon without a partner too. Unfortunately by the time they are without that partner they have usually been hurt or damaged in some way.

By the way, I didn’t see anyone see anyone specifying dollar amounts or model of car here. What I see is someone asking for financial responsibility. This is not superficial. This is a core value.

My responses tp sugarmychurro were not related to Lady Hathor, so why you feel the need to assume they were is beyond me. I was speaking in general of certain replies like this

Well, I guess I would assume that that your responses were related to Lady Hathor since this is a thread where we are discussing Lady Hathor’s list and there was nothing else, in the context of your post that would imply your comments were not related to Lady Hathor's list.

quote:

ORIGNAL: SinergyNstrumpet

As far as someone becoming a financial responsibility down the line, some of us are not worried about that. Some of us realize the future cannot be predicted.

So since the future cannot be predicted, or controlled, with absolute certainty we should make no attempt to control, or direct the elements we can but instead we should just stumble blithely on down the road? Is that what you are saying? Good luck with that!

Look, I want to make one thing clear here before I go on. I am not attempting to single out, or pick on Sinergy's strumpet here. I just happened to pick the quote from her post, but I could just as easily have used a quote from several other posts in this thread that seem to be saying some variation of the same thing which is; since you can’t, absolutely, control how the events in your life will go, why even bother to try?

Well I’ll tell you why. Using financial issues as an example here, since that’s what this thread is about, or what it started out about, at least. If the person of your choosing has a paid up car, has health insurance, is capable of holding a job, keeps their taxes paid, etc., etc, does this guarantee that there will never be financial problems in the future? No, it doesn’t. As some of you have pointed out, anything could happen. On the other hand if the person you are considering is not handling these things now, then not only does it guarantee that you will have these problems now but it very nearly guarantees that there will continue to be financial problems in the future. You can do what you like but I’ll take my chances with the person who demonstrates that they are, at least, capable of financial responsibility.

Let’s try an example from another area.

Most of us would prefer to be involved with people who are not liars and have, at least, some level of personal integrity. This is probably a very important item on most of our lists, and whether we write them down, or not, we all have lists.

So anyway, if we find a person who is not a liar, or as best we can tell, has never lied to us, does that guarantee that this person will never lie to us? No, it does not, but does this mean that we should not even attempt to screen out the liars because, after all, the future cannot be predicted and just because they have not lied to us so far it does not guarantee that they never will? I’ll leave that choice up to you, but I know what my choice is.

quote:

ORIGNAL: SinergyNstrumpet

If a dominant asked me if I had all his economic financial requirements, I wouldn't answer such questions because I was raised not to ask or answer such questions. I would think them shallow to ask in a new situation. I have a car, I pay my bills, I work, and I have health insurance. I am also educated, but I would still find those sorts of questions to be shallow..

Well, certainly that is your choice, and I would be the last person to tell you that you are not entitled to your choice.

For me, they are not shallow at all they are a significant, and important, part of that real life thing that, like it or not, cannot be ignored, or that you ignore at your peril.

I might not start asking them on first contact, but soon, because they are important, and if a person did not wish to discuss these things, and tried to deflect me by, for example, accusing me of being shallow, than I would naturally assume that they figured I would not like the real answers.

You know, I can’t help noticing that often, when an area in the screening process comes up that a person would prefer to hide, they try to put the other person on the defensive by accusing them of being shallow. Well, whatever. If I am shallow, so be it, but I’d rather be shallow and eliminate people who are not right for me early on than find out only after I have invested significant time and emotional recourses.

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:10:43 PM

LaTigresse

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I was thinking about this thread and I came to the conclusion that perhaps those that have more to lose might be more specific in what we expect from others.

I am talking material, physical, possessions. Some may consider that shallow. I don't. I want to be able to retire early. I am sooooooooo not going to do this job until I am dead. I want to be able to enjoy my life. Not worrying about bills gives me pleasure. Knowing I have a home, in a place I enjoy being, gives me pleasure.

I've worked very hard to pull myself out of poverty. There is no way I am going to make a bad judgement call, on a person, and allow that bad judgement to take the things I have worked for, away from me.

If someone that wants to be with me, cannot fathom the security and work to gain that, that I have done......if they expect that they are just going to prance right into my life and ride my coat tails without any effort or contribution of their own.........they are in for a rude awakening.

I want a responsible mature adult in my life. Not another child to raise.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:13:05 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Well, I guess I would assume that that your responses were related to Lady Hathor since this is a thread where we are discussing Lady Hathor’s list and there was nothing else, in the context of your post that would imply your comments were not related to Lady Hathor's list.

I posted on her list in my first post on this thread. Threads take all sorts of turns and do not always stick to the original subject matter.

quote:

So since the future cannot be predicted, or controlled, with absolute certainty we should make no attempt to control, or direct the elements we can but instead we should just stumble blithely on down the road? Is that what you are saying? Good luck with that!

I have a wonderful. close intimate relationship with a man that makes more than probably about 80% of those posting on this site. He has a great job, wonderful benefits, and he has been extraordinarily generous with me. He has a car, life insurance, and he also has a retirement account. He also was paying child support when we first met, and since then his UMs are now legal adults. He has had economic troubles due to giving his ex wife all the assets and he took all the debts... this is one reason I love him. He was willing to throw his economic life under the proverbial bus to keep his offspring. in the family home. Now if I was to predict our future based upon his past, I may have passed on him because of a divorce in his history and his child support baggage... I didn't pass on him. I am in control over my abundance... no one else. I suppose I see this being overly concerned about someone else's economics as putting them in charge of my abundance. I have supported myself my entire life without UM support for the most part. I am responsible for me, and my Daddy is responsible for him. Unless I marry him it is none of my business what is going on with his economic life. I am not his wife. He has volunteered much about his economic life, which is pretty clean now, but he was having some small issues when we met. People get debts that need paying in this life. They are not my debts so why do I care. And yes I wonder about people who think that other people owe them an accounting of what they make and where they have spent it on the second date. It comes off as a bit like a person that wants this sort of info is looking for a gravy train to ride.

I can understand not wanting to support someone, but if they are gainfully employed and paying their own rent, unless one is comingling assets, it is none of your business in my opinion. But hey, if people are willing to let you look at their credit report before you meet them... go you!

quote:

seem to be saying some variation of the same thing which is; since you can’t, absolutely, control how the events in your life will go, why even bother to try?

I don't try to control things in this life. I make plans, I enact them to the best of my ability. I do what needs doing in this life to get to tomorrow, but I am under no delusion that I control anything. Now my Daddy, he likes being in control over things, but knows that control is all an illusion. In other words, you have a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C. But sometimes the best laid plans go awry.

But no, I do not try to control life anymore, I live it

quote:

. On the other hand if the person you are considering is not handling these things now, then not only does it guarantee that you will have these problems now but it very nearly guarantees that there will continue to be financial problems in the future. You can do what you like but I’ll take my chances with the person who demonstrates that they are, at least, capable of financial responsibility.

I am so glad I took my chances on who I have taken them with.

I will get back to you a year from now, I have a good feeling we will still be together, and happily so. We had bumps in the road, and some of those were economic, but you know what? After all we have been through together I love him all the more. Fair weathered relationships just aren't what I want anyhow.

quote:

Well, certainly that is your choice, and I would be the last person to tell you that you are not entitled to your choice.

For me, they are not shallow at all they are a significant, and important, part of that real life thing that, like it or not, cannot be ignored, or that you ignore at your peril.

I might not start asking them on first contact, but soon, because they are important, and if a person did not wish to discuss these things, and tried to deflect me by, for example, accusing me of being shallow, than I would naturally assume that they figured I would not like the real answers.

You know, I can’t help noticing that often, when an area in the screening process comes up that a person would prefer to hide, they try to put the other person on the defensive by accusing them of being shallow. Well, whatever. If I am shallow, so be it, but I’d rather be shallow and eliminate people who are not right for me early on than find out only after I have invested significant time and emotional recourses.

You say that as if I am the one looking for a relationship and cannot find one... that isn't the case. You also assume I have never answered economic questions my Daddy has put to me, of course I have. You also insinuate I am "hiding" something... that is just so damn laughable. My life is an open book, my Daddy knows all.

~Strumpet~

Edited to add, I thought I was in my other account when I posted this

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/7/2008 2:19:48 PM >

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:39:56 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

There is no way I am going to make a bad judgement call, on a person, and allow that bad judgement to take the things I have worked for, away from me.

How can someone take what you have worked for away from you? I just do not get how someone can take what you have, unless you give it to them. Why would you hand over what you have worked so hard for? I surely wouldn't!

I have made my largest investment in my brain. I have spent the amount someone would pay for a nice house on my education and the living expenses/lost wages that went with getting it... no one can ever take that away, they can't repo it, they cannot steal it, nor can they get a percentage of it... what a wonderful investment my brain was

.

Edited to add, I hope the economy improves so my wages will match my Daddy's in the not-sp-distant future... but they are just not there... yet.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/7/2008 2:41:39 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:44:00 PM

LaTigresse

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Julia if that makes you happy and gives you joy, that's all that matters.

For me, an expensive education with nothing else to show would be an empty platter. I already know I am intelligent, I never felt the need to take classes to prove it. Now, if I had chose career path that would have benefited, I would see it differently.

Again, different priorities for different people. What is important to you may not be important to me and visa versa.

All I got from the OP is "This is what is important to ME". It doesn't have to fit anyone else.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:47:40 PM

Lumus

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The first thing that caught my eye was "burial plan or life insurance" and I thought to myself [for this is the situation I'm currently in]:

"How reasonable is that if you accept those who relocate, and they are from another country?"

That opened a full can of worms for me. I wouldn't want my girl buried back in the States; I'd want that up here, with me, in Canada.

Then I saw some of the posts that chose to agree, disagree, or state simply that this list is completely valid for LadyHathor but may not apply to others. I like the latter of those, so I'll go with it, since the first two options imply I have any say in the validity of what works for another Dom/me. [I certainly didn't mentor her.]

As for myself [which I took as the implication from LadyHathor's last word]:

I set compatibility first. I do this because anyone I would choose to take would also be, in my view, a SO. I've tried collaring without the extra commitment and it's not for me. That being the case, the girl I take on as mine better damn well be compatible, as I expect her to be with me for some time. It's also worth noting that compatibility with myself is not that easy; I'm not an easy person, so compatibility isn't as simple as you might think...

After compatibility is established [and not just in the bedroom - I mean aesthetic appreciation, philosophy, personality, and more], I will step back and look at the other, equally important but non-lifestyle or 'mundane' factors. This includes UMs [I have kids; do they, and how well do they deal with children], finances [in all of my lifestyle or vanilla relationships I've been the primary or only 'breadwinner', so I'm not as concerned about what they have as knowing how it will fit into the overall expenses we will share]; and other things, many of which change and permutate with each relationship, I find.

So I start with 'you and I' and progress to 'we', which is what makes sense for how I choose to live my life, and how I allow others to be a part of it. I won't grocery list the criteria; each relationship I've had had different factors and therefore different standards were set [this does not imply that a person's standards change, but rather that not every standard will come into play every time!].

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:49:39 PM

SugarMyChurro

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Funny thing about being financially responsible - sometimes it's all semantics. Somebody might claim to be a homeowner - unless the house is owned outright we all know that in today's world a mortgage might actually mean owing more than a house is worth. So is that person responsible or under water? Fuck, most americans are about one month away from being homeless or otherwise financially screwed.

That's why they call it the "wheel of fortune," people. That life changes one's fortunes is a fact well recognized since the middle ages and probably long before. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Fortune
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Burnejones2.jpg

So I just don't get this intense focus on finances - if it's such a big deal: prenup! End of story. Where's the risk then?

There's so much more important stuff to worry about.

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 2:58:48 PM

LaTigresse

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The mortgage situation you described is as irresponsible as massive credit card debt. Too many fools got sucked into that mess and will be losing their homes.

Helloooooooo recession.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:01:43 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Julia if that makes you happy and gives you joy, that's all that matters.

For me, an expensive education with nothing else to show would be an empty platter. I already know I am intelligent, I never felt the need to take classes to prove it. Now, if I had chose career path that would have benefited, I would see it differently.

Again, different priorities for different people. What is important to you may not be important to me and visa versa.

All I got from the OP is "This is what is important to ME". It doesn't have to fit anyone else.

I have a chosen career path... more of a life calling and vocation that gives me great joy and my Daddy is very supportive of it, it gives me purpose which he finds extremely attractive.

Now that is just us. I noticed you did not answer my question, how can someone take what is yours? You have it, you would have to sign it over to them. What I really hear when people make statements like that is that they want their partner to have as much or more than they do so that together they can be even more wealthy and comfortable as a team with their economic resources... otherwise what someone else had or did not have wouldnt mean fuckall.

It is nice my Daddy makes good money, but it really means nothing to my life, I have no access to it, so what do I care? I may never co mingle our assets. I eventually want a marriage and the co mingling, and I want to add economic value to the relationship... but until we make that step, it really is moot in my opinion.

Perhaps I am wrong about this,but when I read people talking about how "indepedent" economically they are, and then they turn around and demand someone have similar economic status as they do, it comes off a bit strange sounding to me... why does it matter what someone else has as long as you already got yours? If they are not asking you for anything, what does it matter?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:04:37 PM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Now that is just us. I noticed you did not answer my question, how can someone take what is yours?

Yes, we keep asking why this is so important...

Tick, tick, tick...

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:08:43 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Now that is just us. I noticed you did not answer my question, how can someone take what is yours?

Yes, we keep asking why this is so important...

Tick, tick, tick...

I wanted to add... I do understand people wanting to be comfortable and finding a mate that has something to add to the pot. I will admit one day when I finish with my graduate school education and hopefully teaching college I hope to add a great deal to a marriage.... but I do not claim to be "independent", nor do I demand someone have a stellar credit rating because it doesn't matter if I can take care of me....

Edited to add, I have always taken care of me and mine

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/7/2008 3:09:26 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:15:46 PM

SugarMyChurro

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Well, maybe it's a gender issue too. Most women have no intention of taking care of a man, it is often and loudly made abundantly clear. I don't necessarily intend to take care of anyone else myself. So two financially independent adults may not have too much to talk about money-wise. And that's probably smart as mixing finances is often the end of many a good relationship.

But even if you did talk about it, even if everyone was perfectly responsible, even if you did mix things up with the other person, and even with the best of intentions...

...disaster strikes. Thank you, Dame Fortune.

Then what?

The best thing to know then is who that other person is in a crisis (as I have already stated earlier in the thread).

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:18:21 PM

LaTigresse

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Julia, you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I don't expect anyone to have the same $$ value. Just the same work ethics and drive to provide for themself.

As far as someone taking from me.......no, I don't expect anyone to walk into my home and take the title of the property from me. However, they can, IF I allowed them and didn't care how they planned on providing for themself......take from my income. I know that what money is currently coming into the household will provide a very comfortable existance for me and the other person that shares the house. It will not however provide the same for additional people that are costing money for their existance but not contributing to it.

IF I were to take someone into my home that was financially dependant upon me and they became seriously ill. I would feel obligated to see that they had the best medical care possible. My health insurance provides me care, it will not provide care for another woman should she require it. Because I am the type of person that takes my responsibilities seriously I would not want her to go without care, and would do whatever I could financially. That could potentially endanger my financial future, depending upon the extent of the costs. Therefor, I expect that whomever lives with me, in my care, be able and responsible enough to provide their own basic needs. It gives me SOME insurance that I will not have to take from my assets to deal with her major expenses.

It is a responsibility issue for me. It would be wonderful if I were wealthy and knew that I could provide for all her needs, health insurance, her expenses to relocate outside my home should she or I decide it isn't working. However, that is not the case. I feel it is my responsibility to make sure that she would be able to survive without me. I also feel it is my responsibility to myself and those I have already made commitments to, to not take anything away from them.

It all comes down to one thing for me, being responsible.

I hope that explains my thought process on the issue better.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:19:58 PM

SugarMyChurro

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Wait, is this the Universal Healthcare thread again...

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:20:42 PM

LaTigresse

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No, but that would make all of this alot easier at times wouldn't it!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 96

RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:22:59 PM

SugarMyChurro

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Shhhh, everyone in the western world might hear you...

Oh wait, only Americans are stupid enough to go without!

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 3:29:25 PM

juliaoceania

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Your post is one of the strongest arguments for socialized medicine that I have seen in a long time. As others have mentioned on this thread, they are uninsurable and are not afforded that luxury from their job. It does not say to me that a person is not responsible because they have medical issues. I have been blessed thus far with terrific health, but I could fall ill tomorrow... so could you LaT. In fact you could be dropped from your insurance if you became ill enough, and then you might lose all your assets.

My Daddy and I just watched this documentary called "Sicko". Really, it is possible that an HMO could deny you care and then you die because you did not get the care you paid your rates to get. I am just saying that no one can control all outcomes, we can try, but we just can't. It is sad you feel this fear of entangling your assets with another person because of medical insurance which really is no insurance when it comes down to it... it just highlights how we blame people for being irresponsible when they are just doing their best in this life and plugging away. If they are too sick to get insured they are irresponsible, if their job gets offshored they are irresponsible. I just do not see it that way.

Fortunately if we decided to get married he would not worry about my medical situations impinging on his finances... he is well insured and so would his spouse be. But in your situation because of your orientation that is not the case with you. If we had a national healthcare system it wouldn't be an issue at all.

You know, people in Western Europe do not have these worries... perhaps I should move there

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 4:30:58 PM

fatass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

The first thing that caught my eye was "burial plan or life insurance" and I thought to myself [for this is the situation I'm currently in]:

"How reasonable is that if you accept those who relocate, and they are from another country?"

That opened a full can of worms for me. I wouldn't want my girl buried back in the States; I'd want that up here, with me, in Canada.

Then I saw some of the posts that chose to agree, disagree, or state simply that this list is completely valid for LadyHathor but may not apply to others. I like the latter of those, so I'll go with it, since the first two options imply I have any say in the validity of what works for another Dom/me. [I certainly didn't mentor her.]

As for myself [which I took as the implication from LadyHathor's last word]:

I set compatibility first. I do this because anyone I would choose to take would also be, in my view, a SO. I've tried collaring without the extra commitment and it's not for me. That being the case, the girl I take on as mine better damn well be compatible, as I expect her to be with me for some time. It's also worth noting that compatibility with myself is not that easy; I'm not an easy person, so compatibility isn't as simple as you might think...

After compatibility is established [and not just in the bedroom - I mean aesthetic appreciation, philosophy, personality, and more], I will step back and look at the other, equally important but non-lifestyle or 'mundane' factors. This includes UMs [I have kids; do they, and how well do they deal with children], finances [in all of my lifestyle or vanilla relationships I've been the primary or only 'breadwinner', so I'm not as concerned about what they have as knowing how it will fit into the overall expenses we will share]; and other things, many of which change and permutate with each relationship, I find.

So I start with 'you and I' and progress to 'we', which is what makes sense for how I choose to live my life, and how I allow others to be a part of it. I won't grocery list the criteria; each relationship I've had had different factors and therefore different standards were set [this does not imply that a person's standards change, but rather that not every standard will come into play every time!].

I really liked your outlook on things. I wouldnt let someones debt inhibit a relationship from forming if true compatability was there. How ever, if that person was irresponsible about it, that would be a deal breaker for me.

(in reply to Lumus)

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Post #: 99

RE: The slap of reality - 3/7/2008 5:19:34 PM

SubbieOnWheels

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Joined: 12/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
how can someone take what is yours?

"Oh, gosh, Mistress, I just don't have my share of the household expenses this month. Please don't put me out. I can't get a lease cos my credit is too bad."

"Well, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to be late on my rent this month cos I have to get my car out of the impound lot - too many tickets."

Need more?

quote:

Perhaps I am wrong about this,but when I read people talking about how "indepedent" economically they are, and then they turn around and demand someone have similar economic status as they do, it comes off a bit strange sounding to me... why does it matter what someone else has as long as you already got yours? If they are not asking you for anything, what does it matter?

"Gee, Mistress, how come I have to pay anything for household expenses? Aren't I your property? Don't you have the responsibility for keeping me in food, housing, ciggies, gas, and all that?"

"Why should I have to pay that much? You make more money than I do, and you own this house. I'm serving you - you owe me."

You don't have these attitudes. But there are those who do. It is the right of anyone who is contemplating a relationship to be aware of the pitfalls of relationships and to make certain that they avoid those pitfalls. Each person has his or her own way of avoiding them, and Lady Hathor's way obviously rubs some people the wrong way. That doesn't say anyone is shallow; it just says that you and Lady Hathor would not be a good match. Besides, I didn't see any amounts being discussed - she just asks that the person have their finances in order.

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Bethical
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(in reply to juliaoceania)

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Post #: 100