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RE: living expenses - 10/6/2005 3:11:26 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk
Having given this some thought in recent years, a tactic I would use would be to establish a bank account in the slave’s name. Create an automatic monthly payment to this account… whatever amount seems reasonable – this becomes the slaves “emergency fund”.


Setting up a Limited Liability Company (LLC) is not actually appropriate for the situation being discussed and realistically should be completed by an attorney, whereas a contract/agreement discussing the distribution of finances in this type of relationship could easily be written by the parties. Even without being notarized, but signed by the parties gives it legal validity, and it is certainly more private and less expensive than involving an attorney.

Look into LLC's. It has a very interesting and flexible structure that can help with this stuff.



(in reply to Soulhuntre)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: living expenses - 10/6/2005 3:40:13 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

It struck me that in all this talk of financial agreements, trust funds, annuities, LLCs, savings accounts, contracts and pre-nuptual agreements that without realizing it we were saying something very wrong. Because in all these things, in suggesting that a slave should perhaps seek or require these things, that a master should be obligated to provide these things, we are saying one thing. We are saying, "I don't trust you." For those of us who take collaring seriously, who do view owning a slave as owning property and take that seriously, we are asking a slave to place a great deal of trust in us. How then do we reconcile the conundrum of encouraging them not to trust in us, but to trust in financial and legal agreements? The "vanilla" world has these for marriages and it has not provided them with guarantees, the divorce rate still hovers between 40% to 50% depending on who's numbers you use. For all the laws and financial agreements in place, it has not provided a solution, it has not made those relationships work any better nor guaranteed afterwards that things will go as intended. Lawyers find loop holes in prenuptual agreements, probate courts contest wills, trust funds are abused by trustees... are we to place our faith in these same things? These same broken remedies for that essential necessity of trust?



Padriag,

For the most part, you DO make a very valid point. It is essentially the same argument against pre-nuptial agreements. It is not about reducing things to a balance sheet, but rather protecting for the future. Even if the parties are together until the master dies, if no allowances of this sort have been taken in to consideration, that now un-owned slave is out on the street with nothing but the clothes on their back and the grief of losing someone they cared deeply for.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I am in no way saying a master should not be responsible and take care of the needs of their property. But merely questioning where we look to for an assurance that that will be the case. Suggesting that perhaps instead of laws and financial arrangements we look instead to the character of the individual. Consider this. If a master is not of good character and in a break up that becomes bitter, despite all those financial arrangements are you really certain you can rely on them? But, if he is of good character, if he has within him a sense of genuine honor, is that not a better assurance... that these things of his nature say he can be trusted? I know some of you will be inclined to say no, it isn't enough.


The points I have made have been based on situations where a relationship has begun and all assets have been transferred to the master. Several years later, for whatever reason, the two must part company. Yes, someone honorable would try to do what they could to help that slave re-start his/her life. Wouldn't this be easier to achieve if they had been putting away a small amount every week or month during those years in case this happened?

Also, while you noticed all the talk about contracts and savings accounts, did you also notice the posts from "masters" who take the position "it is all mine, they made that choice, so too bad"? These are the people that I am talking about. It is never a bad idea to discuss such matters before entering into a cohabitation type of agreement.

Using your example of IronBear (I know you won't mind). You are very right in your assessment of him and I trust that if I were to ever enter into something with he and Lady Neets (although we have such different beliefs, our friendship is based on mutual respect rather than lifestyle), that I could trust my future to a point as well as they could provide. Does this mean that the potential eventuality of the relationship ending and how things would be handled should not be discussed because I trust him? JohnWarren recently wrote a post about "whipping to blood". I'm sure that Carol (or Carolyn, writing from memory) trust John a great deal, but I am also willing to bet that there were some serious discussions about the event to take place...i.e. what and how it would occur, precautions, possible feelings and aftercare. It isn't based on lack of trust, but rather on "informed consent".

When you buy a brand new car, don't you ask about the warranty? Certainly it is a brand new car and a respected dealer (remember everyone "brand new", the manufacturer's warranty before you comment), but still you research and ask for clarification on that warranty. It is just a wise thing to do.

I just shudder when I think of those who enter blindly because they have that trust and then find themselves with nothing but the sky above to look at because there no longer is a roof.

I would also like to point out that yes, most have misread the OP original post. She is talking SPECIFICALLY about a situation where the MASTER has stated that they do not want the sub/slave to work outside the home. It was never about a submissive wanting a "meal ticket" or anything of the sort. It was a question of when a master WANTS this type of relationship, and the master states they will take care of the needs, what needs are they thinking they are taking care of?

All this nonsense about lazy people wanting to stay home is just that, nonsense. I am a single parent who works, raises my child, keeps my house, does laundry, cooks meals and does pro bono freelance work. So if the right "master" walks into my life tomorrow, there needs to be some scheduling adjustments if he wants me to spend time with him.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: living expenses - 10/6/2005 4:56:33 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not so much arguing for or against pre-nups or other arrangements. I think you've missed my point, so I'll try rephrasing it in a way that is hopefully clearer.

You stated:
quote:

Also, while you noticed all the talk about contracts and savings accounts, did you also notice the posts from "masters" who take the position "it is all mine, they made that choice, so too bad"? These are the people that I am talking about.

Yes I did. Did you notice something else? That those masters who have talked about various ideas and solutions for seeing to the welfare of a slave are also those who are generally of good character, while those who are not of good character are the ones most often objecting to doing anything. There's the crux of my point. That those of us who are of good character will do something to see to the welfare of our property. That might be an annuity or a savings account or a trust fund or an offshore account or something... but we are already inclined to see to these things because our own good character, our own sense of accountability, demands it of ourselves. That's what I meant when I said this...

quote:

In the end, a master (or mistress) of good character will do their best to take care of their property, their slave, because that is their nature. It will not matter whether any such agreements are in place, whether laws or societies or cultures obligate them to do so, because their own nature, their own good character, that nobility of spirit will require it of themselves.

If you felt I was saying that nothing should be done, you misunderstood me. My observation was that those of good character will do something, find some sort of solution that fits their individual situation and their means. Those who are not of good character won't, and even if you forced them too they would fight it and why would you want a master or mistress who was not of good character anyway?

My point was not to say that the welfare of a slave should not be provided for, but rather to question where the faith that that would be done, and done honestly, rests. What I was observing in this thread was what seemed like a shift towards putting that faith in laws and written guarantees, which I feel is a mistake. Instead, I think it is better to invest that trust in someone of good character, because with such a person you can count on the spirit of any agreement being kept, regardless of whether there are loopholes or not. I would rather that we teach slaves to look for that good character before they ever accept a collar from anyone, rather than teaching them to rely on contracts and other agreements for their welfare and safety.

As I said in my closing statement...
quote:

There is no perfect solution to these questions, but I cannot help but think that in any solution we choose, trust should be an essential element. How can there be that trust if we have not sought out and learned to recognize good character? Because in good character we find not accounting... but accountability.

What good is it to have a master or mistress that does not in their behavior exemplify accountability? We are not talking about buying a car from a car salesman we don't know. You ask for warranties in those situations precisely because you do not know them and do not have six months time to get to know a car dealer personally before deciding if they are trust worthy or not. I would hope, that any slave in considering a potential master would take enough time to be able to judge the character of that potential master. I've also made it clear elsewhere what I think of those who rush into collars with someone they've known for only a few days or a few weeks or even a month... its taking a huge risk. No amount of contracts or written agreements will really mitigate those risks, but then again I would observe that most in such a rush wouldn't bother with such agreements anyway.

In short, the irony of it is that those who are most likely to provide such agreements are the ones you least need to worry about them with... and those who are least likely to be ammenable to such provisions are precisely the ones you most need them with. Perhaps the wisest solution then is for a slave to simply choose those with whom they need to worry about the least and avoid the rest.

Does that clarify the point?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: living expenses - 10/6/2005 5:19:56 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce

quote:

Thats wonderful that you do that, my point was simply that someone can actually do that and work. It sounds like in fact you do work and keep the house.


But that wasn't always the case. For the first year and a half that I lived with Master, I did not work at all. Not outside the home, at least. And we have no children living with us, either, so I did not have that additional burden. What I DID have was a routine He expected me to live by, and specific things He required of me when He was not home. And I still paid my own bills.



Then its wonderful that you stayed at home. I'm all for people making decisions that resonate with them.

quote:



While I would agree with you that SOME would take advantage of the "opportunity" to stay home, it's not always a luxury. Unless the Master has a cook, housekeeper and gardener, it's a lot of work.



Sure its a lot of work. Not as much work as doing that *and* holding a job.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to Evanesce)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: living expenses - 10/6/2005 5:31:47 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I own a slave and I provide for most of her living expenses, that is a roof over her head, food in her stomach and a plce to lay her head at night. But in order for her to recive these things she is in college to further her educational level. After she graduates she will work and help with the home. But for someone to expect jsut because they are a slave gives them the right to just stay at home when they are capable as I in helping support a home,,I would pass that one right up and keep moving along. I am poly and all will work in one fashoin or another

Master Six

_____________________________

I wish you well

(in reply to sweetieboop)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: living expenses - 10/6/2005 7:02:43 PM   
JustaTop


Posts: 511
Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		A good slave pays her way by freeing up her Master's time to be more productive.

Slacker slaves are a drain on them-guess which type is more accepted?

(in reply to sweetieboop)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: living expenses - 10/7/2005 3:12:50 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

A good slave pays her way by freeing up her Master's time to be more productive.

Slacker slaves are a drain on them-guess which type is more accepted?


It's been my experience that, among those who have owned or currently own a slave, the idea of keeping a slave in the lap of luxury with little or no responsibility to contribute anything to the welfare of the house is an uncommon one. Having said that, there are those who do not need or want a slave to contribute financially, while others find that it's better for a slave to hold a job outside of the home. I prefer my girl to remain at home and contribute by running the household in a fiscaly responsible manner, but that's no more than my personal preference, based on toy's skills and our financial situation.
I can certainly envision circumstances under which I would require a slave to maintain outside employment and possibly even seperate housing.
As has been pointed out already, there are those who consider ownership a responsibility and those who appear to accept little or no responsibility for the long-term security of their slaves. With such wildly differing perspectives on ownership, it should not be surprising that are slaves with equally diverse views on what is involved in being owned. Luckily, we are all able to seek that which is most appealling, regardless of the disapproval of uninvolved third parties.
While I would not want to own a girl that preferred to sit around and look pretty all day, and would not pursue a slave with career obligations that prevented her from serving me regularly, I take no issue with another searching for just such a slave. Different strokes for different folks. The key, IMO, is to know what you're looking for and why and be able to express that in a way that is easily understandable by a potential partner.
Timothy

(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: living expenses - 10/7/2005 6:07:59 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaTop

A good slave pays her way by freeing up her Master's time to be more productive.

Slacker slaves are a drain on them-guess which type is more accepted?


I agree with you as far as you went. yet there is another catagory to ge considered. there are High Maintance and Low Maintance slaves. The Low Maintance slave is one who accepts what time a Master has to give her. She values her ability to help his life run smoothly which in turn frees up his time. Conversly, the High maintance slave is not necessarily lazy but requires every spare minute her Master has to ber spent on her. She is not topping from the bottom necessarily it is just her nature to need more time with her Master. I know a few Masters with high maintance slaves. these girls are basically trophy slaves and as such do earn their keep. Often enough they are the type of girl who, whilst they have beauty and possibly youth, will never be without a home.

Just my views which may not be in accordance to the findings of others. I make no judgement calls on this one.....Each to his or her own.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to JustaTop)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: living expenses - 10/7/2005 10:54:15 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

You stated:
quote:

Also, while you noticed all the talk about contracts and savings accounts, did you also notice the posts from "masters" who take the position "it is all mine, they made that choice, so too bad"? These are the people that I am talking about.

Yes I did. Did you notice something else? That those masters who have talked about various ideas and solutions for seeing to the welfare of a slave are also those who are generally of good character, while those who are not of good character are the ones most often objecting to doing anything. There's the crux of my point. That those of us who are of good character will do something to see to the welfare of our property.


We are in total agreement here, as well as the concept of "teaching" slaves to learn to be good judges of character, although I don't know if that is something that can be "taught". My thing is that this should be DISCUSSED prior to doing it. I don't care how good your character is, we may have different viewpoints, so discussing it before signing anything away is always a good idea. There are many here that if on discussion said they would do something, I would likely trust them to abide by their word and that would be the end of it.

As for the car thing, that is why I specifically said a NEW car, where you have the history of the manufacturer not the dealer and can have that trust.

Yes, you have mentioned in previous threads the risk of jumping too quickly and I agree totally. It seems to often, from what I gather from the posts that subs/slaves blindly obey and do what they are told without discussing possible ramifications later or even thinking that there might be (at the should we become involved stage) any negotiating on their part. That old discuss, discuss, discuss and when you are through discuss some more concept, to me, can not be stressed enough.


(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: living expenses - 10/8/2005 12:05:44 AM   
Soulhuntre


Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
Setting up a Limited Liability Company (LLC) is not actually appropriate for the situation being discussed and realistically should be completed by an attorney, whereas a contract/agreement discussing the distribution of finances in this type of relationship could easily be written by the parties.


The second part of that I agree with - it sure is somethign to deal with via an attorney. However the appropriatness I am unsure of. Then again, it coudl be that it was more approriate for my case than the norm.

The vast majority of what I have to "leave behind" if I die is in the form of rights to intellectual property that generates income. In working with our attorney it turns out the best way to manage house assets and so on was to effectively turn our house structure into an LLC. The LLC holds the IP for the income producing revenue and in the case of my death control of that income (and thus the house assets) passes to Tatsumi.

There are other advantages, but in a situationw here the primary value was not in terms of business assets and properties it might be less useful for others. Hence why I said "look into" :)

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: living expenses - 10/8/2005 12:30:39 AM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		But an LLC does not fit in terms of the one on one relationship. Furthermore, in that case, an attorney would also not likely set one up for a couple because it borders on being less than an ethical endeavor. You had a situation a bit different making it an appropriate document. In most cases, it would not likely be the appropriate way of handling things. Of course, that is just the opinion of someone who has worked in the legal field for a bunch of long years.

(in reply to Soulhuntre)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: living expenses - 11/7/2005 5:47:32 PM   
jro2020


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/23/2005
From: Idaho
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieboop

I don't understand why Masters don't feel that "all living expenses provided" is a necessity when trying to aquire a slave. If you want to own someone, then you need to be responsible for them, IMHO. Living expenses doesn't mean anything the slave WANTS you to buy her, it means anything she NEEDS. If you want someone to come live in your house, take care of your wants and needs, and do as you say, then don't you have the responsibility to take care of them and provide for them?


I think the mentality is pretty simple. When real slavery was legal a slave was used as a money making devise, any slave who could not bring in more money than they cost to maintain was sold.

Rationally any slave who cannot bring into their masters household at least as much money, or housework and "services", as is spent on them is not infact a slave but in truth a prostitute.

_____________________________

Visit me at http://blog.kistren.com

(in reply to sweetieboop)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: living expenses - 11/8/2005 12:58:17 AM   
wipmebeetme100


Posts: 198
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Let me be more specific. If you want a slave that does not work outside the home. You consider the slave's job to take care of you and your home. I'm talking about 24/7 slave, not a sub.


A slave who does not live with Master, and has a job can still be a 24/7 slave.

I can not begin to imagine a Master telling his slave that she will not work outside the home, she will live in his home and be responsible for the running of the home....then telling her that she would have to provide her own food, clothes or hygiene items. Has something like this happened to you?

cathy

_____________________________

Happiness is like peeing your pants: Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth
~Unknown

(in reply to sweetieboop)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: living expenses - 11/8/2005 4:40:32 AM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline 		Why do you seek someone to support all of your financial needs?

Cloudz

(in reply to sweetieboop)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: living expenses - 11/8/2005 11:28:01 AM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Our "hardcore" friends insisted that marriage gave me rights to which I wasn't entitled to.


Funny that they thought it was their right to determine your entitlements...

quote:

Last thought. For the umpteenth time. For those that think that a slaves only entitlement is to serve. WRONG. We are all in this lifestyle because it makes us happy. Everyone is entitled to that happiness, not just the Dominant/Master.


Agree 100%

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: living expenses - 11/8/2005 11:50:55 AM   
girl4you2


Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		removed by poster

< Message edited by girl4you2 -- 11/14/2005 1:02:47 PM >

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maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to jro2020)
Profile   Post #: 116
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