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Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 11:55:04 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		A few days ago in the “Procuring” thread, softness made the following comment in her original post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

... Sir has told me again and again that I am secure in my position as long as I am pleasing.

... He will not seek to replace me as long as I am pleasing ...



At that time, I knew this comment niggled at me, but as it wasn’t really relevant to that particular thread.  I also wanted to give it some time and consideration before I voiced my thoughts.

Generally, the idea that a dominant would only keep a slave or submissive so long as he or she is pleasing seems to be a reasonable requirement… though not exclusively from a dominant perspective.  I would posit that most people, regardless of orientation or lifestyle choice, would have a difficult time staying committed to someone who behaved in a manner they did not like.

I suppose the underlying difference, though, is the impression that there would be less leeway with a dominant.  Not that they require perfection, but, due to the nature of the D/s relationship, there is a higher expectation of compliance and behaving in a pleasing manner placed on the submissive.

Another prominent difference is that this is more likely an upfront and spoken condition placed upon the relationship.  I would imagine it is rare for a man to propose marriage to a woman with the caveat that he would only stay married to her for as long as she is pleasing to him.

There is also the commonly accepted concept that, like marriage, collaring a slave is a lifelong commitment.  Though, also like marriage, it is generally accepted that it may not work out.  It’s just not typically voiced when people get married.

Which brings me to the crux of why softness’ statement “bothered” me… because it is voiced, it is an ultimatum.  Please me or you will be replaced.

Ultimatums, in and of themselves, are not really a problem.  Whether recognized or not, we live with ultimatums all the time.  If you do not get a license, you cannot legally drive a car… if you do not meet entrance requirements, you cannot attend college… if you do not show up for work, you will not get paid… etcetera.

What is different about this particular ultimatum is that it isn’t absolute.

As I intimated above, it would be unusual for a dominant to require perfection from his slave or submissive.  Unless DV was one who required absolute perfection from softness, then his statement to her isn’t true.  Otherwise, one simple act by her that he found displeasing would have him looking for her replacement.

I doubt that softness’ position is that unsecured.  I suspect that DV allows for her to make mistakes and to occasionally displease him.

However, that brings up the second difference with this particular ultimatum… it isn’t specifically defined.  At what point do the little displeasures earn softness replacement?  Where can softness ever find security in her relationship if she doesn’t know if the very next screw up will send her packing?

I would imagine that most dominants would defend this ultimatum by claiming that the willingness and effort to please is what counts in the end… that as long as the submissive or slave was making a genuine attempt to be pleasing, that the error would not be counted against her.  While I would question just how absolute that particular statement would be (if a slave or submissive consistently failed to please… no matter how much she wanted to and how much she tried… I suspect there would eventually be a point where the dominant would give up or lose interest), it still serves to emphasize that the original ultimatum wasn’t accurate.

In D/s relationships where truthfulness and trust are so highly vaunted, I question the wisdom of a dominant making such an ultimatum… one that, for all intents and purposes, is not true.  Since it seems to be a common ultimatum, is there some other purpose for this that I am missing?
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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:14:55 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
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quote:

In D/s relationships where truthfulness and trust are so highly vaunted, I question the wisdom of a dominant making such an ultimatum… one that, for all intents and purposes, is not true.  Since it seems to be a common ultimatum, is there some other purpose for this that I am missing?


In a sense he is saying 'If I am not happy (someday) with you, then you will be replaced. We all take that chance daily if we are in a relationship if ya think about it.

Makes you wonder if such a situation like marriage 'in sickness and in health, till death do us part bla bla' would even make a difference.  

Sure, it is a wise thing for him to say.  It keeps the door open for a future of readyness or fore-knowing that if (overyly and overtly) disappointed someone/she can be replaced. Seems like the smart thing to say. If an eventual occurance brings one to be displeased, then making them informed makes the end result of 'nexxxxxxxxxxxt' easier no?  

Looks like a means of a verbal 'contract' that has an out clause. 

But who knows the guy's intent?  It could be just an innocent statement or preparation for what is to come.  I guess she find that out when the time comes.

< Message edited by came4U -- 6/24/2008 12:16:14 PM >

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:22:19 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		When it comes to drawing up a contract (or as I like to call it an "outline" for the dynamic), it is impossible to specifically list every single contigency that could possibly lead to dismissal. As such, when I write my "outline" for the relationship, I refer to what it contains mostly as "guidelines". General principles that guide the direction and structure of the relationship.

For example, the axion of my relationship is "No Willful Disobedience" which is defined as "Psychologically and physically capable of completing a command, fully understanding what the command is, and making a concious choice not to". It sounds pretty specific, but it's really not when you get down to the nit and grit. What qualifies and doesn't qualify is decided based on the circumstances of the particular situation as it would be literally impossible to make an entire accurate list with the i's dotted and t's crossed.

If something was really worthy of dismissal, but didn't obviously fit the definition of "Willful Disobedience", an ultimateum would be given at that time to never do it again.

The common purpose that I find for such guidelines is to provide a general direction for both parties who are hopefully working to make the relationship successful. Thus in this case, if the guideline was "to be pleasing or else", then when I told her to wear a certain outfit, she can safely assume that I find this outfit pleasing and that she should take wearing it for me seriously.

It still provides some degree of expectaction which is better than no expectation and both people operating in how they think the relationship should be.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 6/24/2008 12:24:00 PM >

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:23:26 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I get what softness is saying.  I am assuming, though (and hopefully she will clear this up), that her dominant/master works with her to help her be pleasing.  Through discipline, rewards of certain behaviors, etc.  I guess I feel that it's the dominant/master's job to fully instruct the sub/slave and then reinforce what he wants, as much as possible and to provide an environment in which she strives to be pleasing.  It can't all be on her shoulders.




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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:24:25 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		while I construct a more lengthy answer .... consider this

What if His definition of "being pleasing" .. is something I would actively have to fail to do ... rather than just passively failing to do?

puts a rather differnt spin on it ... don't you think?

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:26:43 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		To me what he is saying is a threat that boils down to this: either please me or hit the highway. Personally I don't think thats a solid foundation for a relationship, in fact its rather rocky. Anytime a Dominant has to resort to threats it makes me wonder just how in control (of themselves or their subs) that they really are.

Just my two cents.
~Lashra


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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:39:59 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

... Sir has told me again and again that I am secure in my position as long as I am pleasing.

... He will not seek to replace me as long as I am pleasing ...



At that time, I knew this comment niggled at me, but as it wasn’t really relevant to that particular thread.  I also wanted to give it some time and consideration before I voiced my thoughts.


Which brings me to the crux of why softness’ statement “bothered” me… because it is voiced, it is an ultimatum.  Please me or you will be replaced.

He also has an ultimatum from me ... behave responsibly or I will leave ... does that mean I am a princess ... nope .,,,, does it mean I will leave when it gets hard work ... nope. My choice to be in the relationship is my one control over it, if He forces me to exert that control, then I will. What it means is that if I ever stopped and looked back over weeks and months of DV behaving irresponsibly, of me showing Him this and Him continuing to disregard the health of our relationship... I would give my notice and start booking flights home.

Otherwise, one simple act by her that he found displeasing would have him looking for her replacement.
DV and I don't deal with this kind of relationship. We both realise the other is human. Weeks, months of me being displeasing, that is what would cause Him to relase me, not one scorched shirt.

I doubt that softness’ position is that unsecured.  I suspect that DV allows for her to make mistakes and to occasionally displease him.
You suspect correctly. I am not a total idiot, I wouldn't get this involved with one either.

However, that brings up the second difference with this particular ultimatum… it isn’t specifically defined.  At what point do the little displeasures earn softness replacement? 
When they destroy the health and wellbeing of our relationship
Where can softness ever find security in her relationship if she doesn’t know if the very next screw up will send her packing?
By knowing that being pleasing IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR RELATIONSHIP is something simple and straightforward. I wouldn't enter into a relationship that required me to sacrifice everything I am going have to sacrifice if it had the potential to be that unstable.

Dark Victory and I have negotiated a service based relationship. It meets His needs to be served and own human property and serves my needs to be owned. We will never be married, He will never be my boyfriend. I am His slave, service is the first, and most important connection between us. If that service ceased, or it ceased to be done pleasingly ... what would be the point in our relationship?

works for us ... I understand it wont work for many others

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:40:01 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

What if His definition of "being pleasing" .. is something I would actively have to fail to do ... rather than just passively failing to do?


could be, like I said, who knows what he is thinking?

is he thinking you are so perfect that it would never happen?  That you would have to try to be displeasing?

ask him.

I'd certainly want to know beforehand. 

< Message edited by came4U -- 6/24/2008 12:42:24 PM >

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:42:10 PM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Just sounds to me like he's putting all his cards on the table.  I am going to be a pig here for a second...lol.
Okay so if your in a relationships the concept is that you benefit from it in some way.  I have personaly found that with some woman that they are great comming out of the gate but once they are placed in a "secure" position within the relationship they have a tendency in laze off so to speak.  When a Dom takes on a girl (or at least when I take one on)  Its kind of with the understanding that if they focus on the relationship I will handle the rest and all will be perfect.  You do as you are told which includes of course being bent over daily or on your knees daily or both.  Now, with the exception of medical reasons when a girl is picked out and used for a few months its pretty much a given that she is capable of the job. When a girl looses focus on her duties and responsibilities within the relationship is leaves these little holes in things.  When another girl comes along and sees the first girl living the life she wishes she could have and if she finds those holes in things she will fill them... These holes are not usually sexual but they do lead to sex...lol.  Girls tend to start out with a prove it well see attitude then moves into the begging for the relationship only to bitch there ways out of it.... The way that I interpreted what was said to her is simple.  Do what you are told to the best of your abilities and focus on the relationship because from that comes everything else. If you start to slack off and there are empty slots... they will be filled if not by softness then by someone else.  By picking her, however, she is as is a perfect foundation capable of meeting all his needs and will grow to become the perfect girl. If she wavers from that goal chances are he will not notice and by the time he does it will be too late for her.

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:43:43 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

What if His definition of "being pleasing" .. is something I would actively have to fail to do ... rather than just passively failing to do?


could be, like I said, who knows what he is thinking?

ask him.

I'd certainly want to know beforehand. 


you know .. I *never* thought of asking Him that in the years I have known Him .. in all the time I was negotiating for Him to take full financial, legal, medical and sexual control of me ... I never once thought to ask what He considered being pleasing to be

damn .. should really have thought of that one before ....awwww ... never mind! .. it'll all work out



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veritas, respectus honorque in corio





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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:47:29 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

What if His definition of "being pleasing" .. is something I would actively have to fail to do ... rather than just passively failing to do?


then why ask this?

if you don't know it is simple advice.

ask HIM. 

If you know the answer because you know him so well, then why ask here?

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:48:57 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		look up rhetorical question in a dictionary ...

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:50:08 PM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		softness's situation aside.. because I don't know either of them well enough to comment on that statement for their relationship.. its up to them....

in general -- I find the statement extremely vague and I don't care for it... that's me... seems she's good with it

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:50:14 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		seems most relationships are built on this premise - its just not usually voiced.
I would not stay in a relationship where i did not find the other "pleasing". And my definition of pleasing is sure to be different from the next persons. Which is why we all connect with different people. There is no universal ideal of "pleasing".
Equally with softness, it would take months , if not years , for me to get to the point where pleasing is gone beyond redemption.
I am not fickle, and i think most people in relationships aren't either. We tolerate a lot to keep the relationship going, and the pleasing intact.

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:54:04 PM   
charlotteS


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		What if a Dominant who says this doesn't equate "pleasing" with "perfect?"

Softness said much the same and I am sure she will clarify in regards to her specific situation so I will not try to speculate for them.  I can say that I used to have the very same problem with statements like this.  It felt like it would leave the submissive in a constant state of insecurity.  I thought that anyone who said that must either be trying to make sure he can blame the submissive if things go sour or must simply not mean what he's saying. 

Eventually I came to realize that while some people use the statement in a negative way there are those that really do mean it but aren't being manipulative.  I realized that I was making a massive assumption by assuming that pleasing had to mean perfect at all times.  I wouldn't want to ally myself with a man who thought that being happy meant being happy all the time.  To use the old car analogy we don't kick our cars to the curb and go buy a new one everytime the oil needs changing or a tire goes flat.  It's when the car starts breaking down every month, is no longer reliable and we're putting more money into it than the service we're getting back that we look to replace it.  If Master were miserable with me more often then he was happy, or displeased with me more often than he was pleased I would hope that he would replace me.  No one should stay in a relationship that is bringing more negative aspects to their life than positive.  I trust that if Master started to feel that way he would talk to me.  He wouldn't just kick me to the curb and say "cunt, you forgot to do the laundry one too many times."  That is the symptom of an unhealthy relationship vanilla or D/s.

When Master reminds me that I will only wear his collar so long as he finds me pleasing I don't feel scared, I feel reassured.  I can reach up and feel that I am still wearing his collar and although I may have been worrying about having annoyed him the other day or forgotten a task I can let it go because I trust that if he says he's pleased, then he's pleased. 

charlotte




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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:56:19 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		what charlotte said ... with bells on

thanks hun .. *kisses* ... always there when I need you

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 12:58:19 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		I don't think it's a stretch to say that most people would want to be with someone that pleases them.  I see it as a positive thing.  I have kanji on the back of my neck that means "to be pleasing".  It's a goal for me in relationships.  I also expect my partner to be pleasing.  Just to go about it in a more masculine way.  Pleasing leads to happiness within the relationship.  If happiness goes, usually the relationship falls apart.  I see nothing wrong with leaving someone who no longer tries to be pleasing.

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 1:03:35 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		I certainly know what rhetorical means.

I thought you were really asking.

if there is no question to what he means, then why all the doubt as to what he means?? Not all of us live to hear your every day details to keep track of what is going on and who is seeming whom. 

I don't frankly care what he means, you are the one who has to hear it. 

So then again, I realize the topic isn't about you you you, you were an example (your situation of not knowing what it means).  So remove any of my mention of you and put in 'average jane doe subby' in place of it.




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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 1:05:09 PM   
charlotteS


Posts: 203
Joined: 3/9/2008
Status: offline 		*edited for unnecessary huffiness.


< Message edited by charlotteS -- 6/24/2008 1:43:26 PM >

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RE: Be Pleasing, Or Else... - 6/24/2008 1:06:56 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

So then again, I realize the topic isn't about you you you, you were an example (your situation of not knowing what it means). So remove any of my mention of you and put in 'average jane doe subby' in place of it.


Actually she was directly quoted in the OP, that sort of makes this about her.  And she has graciously answered questions and clarified things.  Sheesh.


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