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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 8:47:37 AM

UncleNasty

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From a legal standpoint there is no religious test for our elected representatives. From a practical standpoint there is a test. I would prefer the reality match the ideal in that regard but such is not the case.

Personally I see no good or safe way to combine religion/spirituality and government/politics.

Richard Dawkins came out with a book recently, "The God Delusion," that posited this. In any speech given in which a politician mentions or refers to "God" replace "God" with a lesser known, or perhaps even an historical, diety and see how silly he appears.

Change "And with the help of God we will...." into "And with the help of the Gitchy Manitou we will..." or "And with the help of the Flying Spaghetti Monster we will..." or "And with the help of the severed head of Baphomet we will..."

It does become pretty silly.

Jefferson is quoted as saying "History, I beleive, furnishes no example of a priest ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 21

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 8:58:09 AM

Raechard

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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Of course, the flip side is that opposing the war amounts to "I believe you are wrong."

Or is it phrased "I know you are wrong" to make the argument supremely ... "rational"?

Opposing the war is the status quo in the UK thus it was up to Blair to prove the case for war not others to disprove the case for war. The case for war as handed out in the document to parliament was exaggerated and Blair then, after the fact the lies came out, dismissed the lack of evidence and instead put his personal beliefs forward, that was wrong. Tony Blair saying he believed he was right wasn't good enough.

What I said earlier related to a leader that had to weigh up evidence and make a person decision based on that evidence not a man that in his heart knows there is no real evidence but goes ahead with the war for other reasons and then blames god for his choices.

I can’t believe people still can’t see how wrong this whole circumvention of democracy was even after all these facts and the chain of events surrounding them have come to light.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 8/26/2008 9:07:13 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 9:07:13 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Not to me.
What a candidate believes or doesn't believe spiritually is their business not mine.
I really wish they'd keep it to themselves.
I'd rather hear how they plan on getting us out of Nafta, Gatt, trade with China, "foreign aid" programs, Nato and the "U.N."
I *DO* want to know how they plan on securing our border with Mexico, enforcing our immigration laws, replacing or repairing thousands of roads and bridges that are falling down, getting our Troops out of Iraq, Japan, Germany and S. Korea, and how they'll get the national debt down to managable levels.
I couldn't care less which church they go to or how they say their prayers.

I would agree almost entirely but would advise...don't hold your breath, I am not. While I am not so sure about what 4 to 8 years of McCain would mean, I do like his idea of a 'League of Democracies' which is looking even better since Russia invaded Georgia.

However, I don't think the bankers will go for it with all those non-democracies holding so much of our money. Iraq wanted to open an oil exchange in Euros and we invaded. Iran is threatening the same...McCain will invade sometime before that happens.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 23

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 9:09:18 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

As Blair once said about the Iraq war, I believe I am right! There is no rational argument to that and that is the problem with politicians that have faith, they believe they have a moral compass without the need to be rational.

Of course, the flip side is that opposing the war amounts to "I believe you are wrong."

Or is it phrased "I know you are wrong" to make the argument supremely ... "rational"?

Bush wanted the weapons inspectors out of Iraq and the war started as quick as possible. Both Chirac and Schroeder both said they hadn't seen any evidence to suggest Iraq currently had WMDs. That would make it rational enough to doubt a war was necessary. As we know now, the war was based on a lie or should that be 'blind faith'?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/26/2008 9:10:12 AM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 9:26:33 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

In those images you'll notice the enlarged dark area I read somewhere this part was responsible for forming ideas into language. I can only assume you are not suffering from schizophrenia. You could also argue that maybe god made these people’s brains this way to channel ideas down from a higher existence. This is quite possible but you'd have to ask yourself what kinds of things were these people being told to do and then ask yourself if any god telling someone to do that is worthy of being worshiped.

No, my 'voices' came from the fact that according to the medics, I died or was on the very precipice of it. Now, I am a rational person and though I claim a spirituality, I always look to logic and explore every avenue to explain something before I uneasily accept something as possibly supernatural. Even then, I am still looking for a plausible reason for things, I will not accept the unkown until I have exhausted every rational possible explanation, and then I still wonder.

Let us remember that in the Old Testament, it was reported that Abraham was to sacrifice his son. Now to me, that is a particularly barbaric thing which with the laws of today crosses many crimes, murder and infanticide to name two. I cannot have a faith that has that as the word of the supreme deity. Fair enough, the sacrifice did not happen, the God changed his mind, but as an act of faith to push someone to the point of doing that, it is to me pretty sick

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Raechard)

Post #: 25

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 9:26:42 AM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

One nation, under God? Yes, it is a big one.

The thing that gripes my nerves is the pastors who use fear to gain favor for the republican party. I have had this philosphy shoved down my throat all my life. It is in both the black and white churches. It needs to stop.

Democrats believe in God as well.

Regards, MissSCD

Growing up in Chicago, 99% of the Democrats I knew, were Catholic, and IMO the Dem's preach fear just as much as the Repubs, just about different issues, like social programs, and the elderly, and who could forget those poor children that are always in danger of something.

One side doesn't have a lock on the "fear" issue, it's just a matter of which issue matters to you...

Without fear, politicians don't get reelected.

As for religion & politics, I don't give a rat's ass what religion the politician is, as long as he/she keeps it to themselves, and doesn't try to turn it into an official national religion.

(in reply to MissSCD)

Post #: 26

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 12:19:29 PM

Vendaval

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Hello Aneirin,

If you look at the political history of the US you will note that being a WASP male was the standard. (White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant). When President Kennedy was elected there was controversy because he was Catholic.

IMO, religion or lack thereof is a private matter. I am more concerned with the ability of the candidates to manage our country well than with their private beliefs.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 27

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 1:21:03 PM

aggressiveblkdom

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From: The Dark Side of The Moon
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Unfortunately the seperation of state and religion is non-existant. Religion has always had a VERY strong hand in politics. While many still don't want to admit it, look at many of the laws in western society. Many of these were implimented due to the ultra-conservative religious viewpoints of the puritans who founded the U.S. I completely agree with the post which mentioned that you will never see an atheist elected, or for that matter a Hindu, Buddhist, and let alone a Muslim. Sad, but true....

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 28

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 3:32:36 PM

bipolarber

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Yup. In America, you have to be a Kool-aid drinking believer to get anywhere. You have to be able to quote scripture, get down on your knees and pray loudly and publicly to God, and be insane enough to believe that God talks back to you directly.

"I believe that God told me that he wants me to be President of the United States." -G.W. Bush.

...and look at how that worked out.

(in reply to aggressiveblkdom)

Post #: 29

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 4:24:05 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

[Incidentally, those ultra religious people in the US who are into politics tend to be Christians:

Yeah, we Jews get REALLY nervous when the government starts pontificating about how they follow God's word devoutly. It worked out REALLY badly in Germany.

Yes and Jews and their beliefs are working so much better in the Middle East.

Butch

Better at stopping those dedicated to killing every Jew on the planet, yes... your point?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 30

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 5:31:08 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

[Incidentally, those ultra religious people in the US who are into politics tend to be Christians:

Yeah, we Jews get REALLY nervous when the government starts pontificating about how they follow God's word devoutly. It worked out REALLY badly in Germany.

Yes and Jews and their beliefs are working so much better in the Middle East.

Butch

Better at stopping those dedicated to killing every Jew on the planet, yes... your point?

Hi Alumbrado

The point I was making is that Christians are no better or worse then Jews ..It is not religion that makes war it is people who use religion to further their personal ambitions.

I don't know a religion that does not preach peace and good will to others...yet look at how some manipulate others by twisting the words of religions to set us against one another.

Religion is both a blessing and a curse…perhaps it is our test by god on how we ultimately use his words…As a weapon or as they were meant as a guide to a good life.

Butch

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 31

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 5:36:37 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yup. In America, you have to be a Kool-aid drinking believer to get anywhere. You have to be able to quote scripture, get down on your knees and pray loudly and publicly to God, and be insane enough to believe that God talks back to you directly.

"I believe that God told me that he wants me to be President of the United States." -G.W. Bush.

...and look at how that worked out.

Not sure which religion you were raised with, but it sounds scary. It also could explain a lot.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

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Post #: 32

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 6:52:17 PM

Vendaval

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Yes, even an agnostic or a Christian from one of the non-mainstream denominations would have a hard time being elected into higher office in the US.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to aggressiveblkdom)

Post #: 33

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 6:57:18 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The point I was making is that Christians are no better or worse then Jews ..

The point I was making is that the Christian right have managed to have a huge influence on public policy in America when they should never have had the opportunity to do so: why you decided to bring 'the Jews' (BOOH!) and the Middle East, only you know.

_____________________________

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 34

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 7:09:09 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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So what I see with this all, is that as long as the status quo remains in existence, nothing will change in reality. Political leaders will still quote or defer to their God as a reason for acts which might be deemed illogical or without substance.

Just think, if the US shelved this use of religion, it was banned in politics, what message would that send out to the world, bearing in mind, just about every nation on earth looks to the US and what it is upto to compare itself against ?

Personal belief or unbelief is fine, just as long as it is kept that way, personal and a person's belief has no bearing on how able they are to lead people, the only belief they should publicise, is belief in their self, their people and their country.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 8/26/2008 7:13:44 PM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 35

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 7:49:30 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The point I was making is that Christians are no better or worse then Jews ..

The point I was making is that the Christian right have managed to have a huge influence on public policy in America when they should never have had the opportunity to do so: why you decided to bring 'the Jews' (BOOH!) and the Middle East, only you know.

It was not in response to you but the person that answered your post.. so I apologize for the confusion. But since you directed your post to me I would ask you...Don't you think the Jews have influenced American Policy?.. If you don't think they have more influence then the Christian right then you’re not as smart as I thought you were.

Butch

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 36

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 7:56:34 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

I will vote for a politician with whose moral values I disagree categorically over a politician who is completely amoral every time.

Damn, CL - guess this means I can't count on your vote when I decide to say Fuqit and run for office myself, huh?

(I'll have you know it takes a lot of effort and Practice to be a truely outstanding amoral sociopath, damnit... )

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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 37

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 8:23:08 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you don't think they have more influence then the Christian right then you’re not as smart as I thought you were.

Surely, you speak in jest? Where do I start... abortion rights, creationism, anti gay-marriage, state AND federal money for Christian organisations, the promotion of 'intelligent design' and (Christian) prayer in public schools... I won't even mention bioethics and other shameful things... the list goes on. The movement has infiltrated so many aspects of government policy, it's hard to keep track: that you can compare the influence of American public life by the Christian right to Judaism is more than telling

.

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Post #: 38

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 9:06:00 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you don't think they have more influence then the Christian right then you’re not as smart as I thought you were.

Surely, you speak in jest? Where do I start... abortion rights, creationism, anti gay-marriage, state AND federal money for Christian organisations, the promotion of 'intelligent design' and (Christian) prayer in public schools... I won't even mention bioethics and other shameful things... the list goes on. The movement has infiltrated so many aspects of government policy, it's hard to keep track: that you can compare the influence of American public life by the Christian right to Judaism is more than telling .

All you’ve stated is fluff with no meaning or majority even among the so-called Christians... I mean the real influence...our stand on the Middle East...and out defense of Israel for a start.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 39

RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/26/2008 10:01:36 PM

igor2003

Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yup. In America, you have to be a Kool-aid drinking believer to get anywhere. You have to be able to quote scripture, get down on your knees and pray loudly and publicly to God, and be insane enough to believe that God talks back to you directly.

"I believe that God told me that he wants me to be President of the United States." -G.W. Bush.

...and look at how that worked out.

It seems that God told him to do a lot of things...with disasterous results. He also said that God instructed him to clean up the Middle East. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

(in reply to bipolarber)

Post #: 40

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