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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/27/2008 2:47:10 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
So what I see with this all, is that as long as the status quo remains in existence, nothing will change in reality. Political leaders will still quote or defer to their God as a reason for acts which might be deemed  illogical or without substance.


Whatever the main religion is within a country, it is one of the things that defines its history and culture.  Not thee defining, but one of the things.  To claim it illogical or without substance is negating a countries culture,ethics or history and making it inferior to your own belief.

quote:

Just think, if the US shelved this use of religion, it was banned in politics, what message would that send out to the world, bearing in mind, just about every nation on earth looks to the US and what it is upto to compare itself against ?


And you are perpetuating the myth that the US is some sort of authority or world leader more than any other country.  All it would send out if the US did that, would be it's shelved religion.  But as a world message?  It sends out only what a specific country would want to see, so in the case of a country which is 'anti amrican' all the headlines would be that america is now a godless society.  You are thinking as though religon is the cause, it isn't.  It might be an excuse - but in itself, it is not a cause. 

quote:

Personal belief  or unbelief is fine, just as long as it is kept that way,


...that's ok then, if you say so.

quote:

personal and a person's belief has no bearing on how able they are to lead people, the only belief they should publicise, is belief in their self, their people and their country.


Bullshit.  Of course a persons belief has bearing on how able they are to lead people.  Belief or faith has an enormous baring on a person AND it has a bearing on those that follow that person - how they feel they can relate.
Everything that makes up a person has a bearing on how able they are to lead another person.  You only have to look at the McCain/Obama/Clinton news to see that and in those, and religion has falling back to sex and race.
 
No religion is religion.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/27/2008 6:05:53 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The point I was making is that Christians are no better or worse then Jews ..



The point I was making is that the Christian right have managed to have a huge influence on public policy in America when they should never have had the opportunity to do so: why you decided to bring 'the Jews' (BOOH!) and the Middle East, only you know.


What's with the BOOH?......did ya see a ghost?

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/27/2008 6:55:17 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		Many presidents have been devoutly religious, and have professed belief in divine inspiration. But, if Christians scare you that badly you might want to consider campaigning against Obama with everything you can possibly muster because he claims to be a man of faith as well.



quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yup. In America, you have to be a Kool-aid drinking believer to get anywhere. You have to be able to quote scripture, get down on your knees and pray loudly and publicly to God, and be insane enough to believe that God talks back to you directly.

"I believe that God told me that he wants me to be President of the United States." -G.W. Bush.

...and look at how that worked out.


It seems that God told him to do a lot of things...with disasterous results.  He also said that God instructed him to clean up the Middle East. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html  


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 1:34:45 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Many presidents have been devoutly religious, and have professed belief in divine inspiration. But, if Christians scare you that badly you might want to consider campaigning against Obama with everything you can possibly muster because he claims to be a man of faith as well.



One of the truisms in American politics is that you can't be President if you don't believe in god. Therefore, all Presidents and potential Presidents express faith. It might just be politics, it might not. With America being the most religious country in the developed world aand one where many believe in direct divine intervention, they have little choice

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 1:44:05 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Many presidents have been devoutly religious, and have professed belief in divine inspiration. But, if Christians scare you that badly you might want to consider campaigning against Obama with everything you can possibly muster because he claims to be a man of faith as well.



quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Yup. In America, you have to be a Kool-aid drinking believer to get anywhere. You have to be able to quote scripture, get down on your knees and pray loudly and publicly to God, and be insane enough to believe that God talks back to you directly.

"I believe that God told me that he wants me to be President of the United States." -G.W. Bush.

...and look at how that worked out.


It seems that God told him to do a lot of things...with disasterous results.  He also said that God instructed him to clean up the Middle East. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html  

No, real Christians don't bother me. It's the xtianists that disgust me. The ones who took over the Repub party who scare the hell out of me. The Dominionists. People like that. People that GWB rimmed in order to get votes. And then GWB says he talks to Gowadduh. Well, fuck, who doesn't? He aint so special. Seems like Gowadduh is one cozmic Joker, 'cause he tells everyone something different. It's the ones that think Gowadduh told to go to war that are getting static. Null content. You know, Republicans. The only difference I see between them and, say, the Taliban is they dress different and speak different languages.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 3:31:26 AM   
Sanity


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Obama took his family to the same church for twenty years. Are you claiming that was all just an act, an insincere political stunt?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Many presidents have been devoutly religious, and have professed belief in divine inspiration. But, if Christians scare you that badly you might want to consider campaigning against Obama with everything you can possibly muster because he claims to be a man of faith as well.



One of the truisms in American politics is that you can't be President if you don't believe in god. Therefore, all Presidents and potential Presidents express faith. It might just be politics, it might not. With America being the most religious country in the developed world aand one where many believe in direct divine intervention, they have little choice


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 4:11:42 AM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		Wow, who would have thought religion could get people disagreeing. 

Religion has become a very powerful lobby in the USA, it is a small number if people using it to force their personal beliefs onto others.   I don't mean the people who attend the churches, but rather those who profit from it, the leaders who are gaining power controlling their flock of sheep.

The newest religion is TV, what a great way to control the masses, keep them dazed and confused and they will follow for the simplest of reasons. 

I find it very interesting that I get asked the same question about religion from family members overseas, they just don't understand why it is so important when getting elected, or why what someone does in their bedroom is important during an election.



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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 4:15:40 AM   
colouredin


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I didnt read many of the posts and am basically responding to the title of the op. Religion is important to many people some of whom are politicians for many it helps focus how they live their life so to those politicians relgion is important in politics. I dont believe that any government should enforce a religion on a national scale that harps back to the days of persecution because people practice their faith differantly.

Politics is basically meant to be reflecting the needs and wants of a nation and as religion is important to many people it HAS to be in politics, I was reading in my local pastoral newsletter about a political drive to include women in the church if we were to keep religion totally personal and individual or outside of politics then all churchs would fall into ruin and we would effectivly be removing peoples ability to practice an element of their faith in the traditional way. Just because religion is (and has to be) included in politics doesnt instantly taint policy in other areas.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 4:49:08 AM   
MissIsis


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Status: offline 		Religion was a big reason that bush guy got into the white house 8 years ago. Unfortunately, it seems to be a very important thing in politics, although, I for one, wish it wasn't. 

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 4:51:53 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Obama took his family to the same church for twenty years. Are you claiming that was all just an act, an insincere political stunt?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Many presidents have been devoutly religious, and have professed belief in divine inspiration. But, if Christians scare you that badly you might want to consider campaigning against Obama with everything you can possibly muster because he claims to be a man of faith as well.



One of the truisms in American politics is that you can't be President if you don't believe in god. Therefore, all Presidents and potential Presidents express faith. It might just be politics, it might not. With America being the most religious country in the developed world aand one where many believe in direct divine intervention, they have little choice



I've spent quite sometime in America, going to church is like going to a club, there is social pressure to do it and to be seen to do it. I know of no other western country were there seems to be a need to flaunt ones faith in public. If you have ambitions in public life you had better conform, America doesn't like mavericks and merely having doubt about faith can be seen as negative indeed.

Obama might believe or he might not, only he knows and he is smart enough to know, believing will get his public ambitions further than not believing.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 5:06:55 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


I've spent quite sometime in America, going to church is like going to a club, there is social pressure to do it and to be seen to do it.




your ignorant generalization could be offensive to those of us Americans who go to church for the right reasons....if your opinion mattered.


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 5:16:48 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		I think on the whole, the American public have expectations of faith by those they wish to elect. They see religion as prima fascia evidence of the person having a moral compass.Living in the South as I do, I am always amused at those that wear their religion on their sleeve  but, don't show it in their actions. I dislike the discussion of religion because of the "MY religion is right and yours is wrong" attitude some take. Being Episcopalian in a world of Baptists isn't easy!

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 5:21:18 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		Meatcleaver, you have hit on something that makes many people very angry.  There is a large portion of American churchgoers who attend to be seen as "holy" or "devout" in the eyes of others.  The fact that they have to dress as a fashion plate to go to worship tends to give away their true faith .... self worship.  
As Sirsholly pointed out, there are many who go for the right reasons, to express their beliefs in a way that makes them and others feel good and to teach others who wish to know about their path.  The truly sad part is that we often can't see the ones who truly care because they are hidden by "The Fashion Faithful" and the "Betterthanyou Family." 

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 5:37:10 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

I know of no other western country were there seems to be a need to flaunt ones faith in public.



England, Italy, Greece, Spain,  Denmark et al. have had state churches or ties to powerful religions for centuries, Aren't people still put on criminal trial for violating canon over there? Isn't that where some churches can levy taxes, require monarchs to be church members, and even maintain armed forces?


That is why there is such a strong backlash in America against the movement from the religious right to emulate the 'motherland' in that regard.

America has always been caught up in the pendulum swing between those who would drag us back into the European influences of the Dark Ages, and those who saw leaving Europe behind as a chance to do things in a more enlightened and progressive manner, hoping that an ocean would be sufficient to shed religious intolerance, prejudice, slavery, generational cycles of grudge wars, superstition, divine right to rule, oppression and so forth. 

What the progressives failed to forsee, is that the Euro-loyalists would follow them over here in great numbers, and try to rekindle the very things it was hoped would be extinguished.

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:13:04 AM   
servantheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
There is a large portion of American churchgoers who attend to be seen as "holy" or "devout" in the eyes of others.......
 
As Sirsholly pointed out, there are many who go for the right reasons, to express their beliefs in a way that makes them and others feel good and to teach others who wish to know about their path. 


Bingo.  Yes there ARE those who attend for the wrong reasons.  However, when one attends worship, he/she should be focused only on the state of their own heart rather than seeking out examples of hypocrites.  It is not our place to sit in judgment of another's faith.  When I used to attend, I saw those who I judged as being there for iniquitous reasons, but I was wrong.  When my family experienced a devestating crisis involving the health of one of my UMs, it was those very people who were the most supportive, offering their time and a shoulder to lean/cry on.  They were the ones who took the time to call and ask how we were doing and who mailed numerous short notes to say they were thinking of us during the 18 months from diagnosis to cure.  They were the ones who got up at the crack of dawn in order to babysit for our other UMs so that we could take the ill one to early appointments to specialists many miles away.  They offered quiet words of wisdom that helped sustain my faith when I was sure I was being "punished".  I learned a lot from these so-called glory seekers.  Most of all, I learned that I do not have the ability nor the right to determine who is a "true" follower of God.      

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:19:27 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I know of no other western country were there seems to be a need to flaunt ones faith in public.



England, Italy, Greece, Spain,  Denmark et al. have had state churches or ties to powerful religions for centuries, Aren't people still put on criminal trial for violating canon over there? Isn't that where some churches can levy taxes, require monarchs to be church members, and even maintain armed forces?


That is why there is such a strong backlash in America against the movement from the religious right to emulate the 'motherland' in that regard.

America has always been caught up in the pendulum swing between those who would drag us back into the European influences of the Dark Ages, and those who saw leaving Europe behind as a chance to do things in a more enlightened and progressive manner, hoping that an ocean would be sufficient to shed religious intolerance, prejudice, slavery, generational cycles of grudge wars, superstition, divine right to rule, oppression and so forth. 

What the progressives failed to forsee, is that the Euro-loyalists would follow them over here in great numbers, and try to rekindle the very things it was hoped would be extinguished.



I think you are wrong. When Blair was asked by a reporter whether he prayed with President Bush, he said 'we don't do religion'. He knew that 99% of the British electorate cringes when politicians talk about god and religion.

You also fail to understand the historical significance of state churches, it wasn't a case of everyone having to belong to a state church, it was to stabilize the establishment after the religious wars. That allowed anyone to believe what they wanted. Puritans didn't go to America for reasons of religious freedom, they went because they couldn't tolerate living amongst people with different views. Why do you think that America has a fundementalist Christian problem and not Europe.

It was middle eastern peoples that created the superstitious religious nonsense we have all suffered from, not Europe but feel free to blame Europe.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/28/2008 6:23:17 AM >

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:27:04 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

You also fail to understand the historical significance of state churches, it wasn't a case of everyone having to belong to a state church, it was to stabilize the establishment after the religious wars.

You fail to acknowledge the Oath of Supremacy, Elizabeth I's Act for Restraining Popish Recusants, the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829, among other bits of legislation involving mandatory attendance in Anglican church services.


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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:31:09 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

You also fail to understand the historical significance of state churches, it wasn't a case of everyone having to belong to a state church, it was to stabilize the establishment after the religious wars.

You fail to acknowledge the Oath of Supremacy, Elizabeth I's Act for Restraining Popish Recusants, the Catholic Emancipation Act of 1829, among other bits of legislation involving mandatory attendance in Anglican church services.



I could write the complete history of European state churches but no doubt most people would be bored. Alunbrado mentioned several countries not just England which hasn't been an independent state for 300 years so the Church of England isn't even a state Church, even though it is an established church.

Giving Catholics the vote was more of political significance than religious significance since the whole argument between Rome and north Europe was one that was more about power than religion.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/28/2008 6:33:38 AM >

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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:34:48 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

I think you are wrong.


Because of course, actually dealing with facts would upset your fantasy.





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RE: Is religion important in politics ? - 8/28/2008 6:37:07 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I think you are wrong.


Because of course, actually dealing with facts would upset your fantasy.



No because a European politician ranting on about god and faith in a way American politicians do would haemerage votes and not gain power. Western Europeans have had their gut full of mixing politics and religion a long time ago and don't want any more of it.

Actually Amunbrado, my fantasy has more reality that your reality.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/28/2008 6:42:41 AM >

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