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Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 6:36:11 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Often in discussions on limits/boundaries or harm the focus is on extreme situations where the potential for harm is quite high.  However, how often in life are we faced with such black and white issues for the decisions that we make or the decisions of another that we follow?  How often do we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the path we are about to take will result in harm to ourselves?  How often is it that only in hindsight do we realize that we have been harmed?  I am deliberately being vague about what harm is or what the situations are because I am not trying to define for others what is or is not harmful

More often, harm occurs by degrees.  Much like the person who starts smoking; are they harmed with the first cigarette?  The tenth?  The hundredth?  The thousandth?  How many before harm occurs? 

It is nice and pretty for me to say that I will not allow myself to be harmed in my obedience to my Lord, but I have come to the conclusion that for the most part, it is bullshit.  The harm that I may experience (and have experienced) in this relationship is not the black and white, extreme examples that are often listed in threads.  The harm that may occur is the insidious, slow wearing away of my well-being until one day I realize that I am less or the relationship is less than it once was.  Please note the ‘may’ in the previous sentences; there is nothing occurring in my relationship that I perceive as harmful or anything at this point that is even causing negative reactions in our relationship.

What happens then, when someone realizes that they have made decisions or followed someone else’s decisions and it has led or is leading them down a path that was destructive for them?  I know that for myself, based on my behavior in the past, that I will most likely keep doing what I am told and trust in him to find us a way out of it.  He has done it before and I have faith that he will do so in the future if needed.

How do you know that you are on a self-destructive path, whether you are the one making the decisions or following the decisions?  What do you watch for?  What do you do when you realize that you are there?  What other thoughts do you have?

I know these answers for myself and the relationship that I am in and I am quite peaceful and content with them.  These are thoughts that I hope will inspire some constructive dialogue and sharing of opinions.

Knight’s Kyra

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 6:52:06 PM   
JessieMe


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Status: offline 		Kyra,

This is a wonderful post. I am just coming back to the threads after taking a year or so off. I was in a relationship where I was deluding myself that all was well when it wasnt. It was just as you described. It wasnt anything specific that was done to me that made it wrong for me...but that insidious wearing away over time where you become less. It was harmful for me because it drew away from my ability to think or see clearly what was actually going on. I was so focused on what I wasnt doing right or where I was lacking that I didnt see things for what they really were.

I am the type that "needs to be needed" and got involved with a family that was so needy in so many areas that I forgot that first and foremost I moved in to be someone's sub/slave. I am not placing blame on anyone as everyone held some measure of accountability for this not working. I am only saying that I see exactly what you are trying to say and I look forward to seeing other responses.

Jessie

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 6:53:21 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		Seriously? This may not be a particularly appropriate viewpoint, but:

I don't think there's such a thing as "destructive directions". I think that there's plenty of things that each of us have already done that we can decide later were harmful and "beyond the pale". I think that we stay in relationships so long as we can convince ourselves that the good outweighs the bad, and so long as we convince ourselves of this, we choose to interpret events as "non-harmful" or ultimately "worthwhile". But we always have the option to re-interpret. We always have the ability to wake up and say "that wasn't a healthy BDSM relationship, that was abuse". And anyone can do this with any relationship, at any time. There is no magic behavior that is non-abusive. There is no magic line where kink crosses into abuse. There's just labels we hang on things, because we want to call things "good" and "bad" to make people look better or worse.

Worse than that: there is no such thing as consent in the moment. There is only consent after the fact, and that can always be revoked. No matter how many documents you have the other party sign, no matter how adamantly they swear, no matter how much you respect their safewords, if one day they wake up and say "I was raped", you raped them. If one day they wake up and say, "she manipulated me into that scene", you non-consentually manipulated him into a scene. If one day they wake up and tell the local community, "he's a manipulative abuser and dangerous", and they are believed, guess what?

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 6:53:37 PM   
lovingpet


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Status: offline 		This is just the way of things with most of the "harm" that is most common and, in many cases, most destructive.  A person perpetrating harm on another in this kind of progressive and long term fashion tends to first erode the other person to listen to gut feelings and instincts.  The person is left second guessing things that appear common sense from outside the relationship.  If I find myself having to constantly reconsider my position, never being correct on an issue, or always having to put aside significant feelings, then I foresee harm coming.  Note the words "constantly", "never", and "always".  This is how such things work. 

Now are there cases where harm occurs outside of intent of either party?  Of course there is.  These are what are called accidents.  Even if the outcome was progressive in nature, if it was not foreseen or preventible, there was little chance that one could know or have an idea that this was the path on which he/she were set.  There is a level of risk assessment, planning, and education that should go into a new venture to curtail as much accidental harm as possible.  Still, the preparations are inadequate to account for personal responses.  A strong relationship can prevent most of this type of harm as well, but not all.

At the end of the day, it is a risk to get out of bed in the morning.  It is usually only far too late to turn back when we realize we really should have just stayed in bed.  The harm has occurred.  There is no undoing it.  There is only living with the consequences and not allowing that bad day prevent us from getting out of bed the next day. 

lovingpet

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 7:10:08 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Seriously? This may not be a particularly appropriate viewpoint, but:

I don't think there's such a thing as "destructive directions". I think that there's plenty of things that each of us have already done that we can decide later were harmful and "beyond the pale". I think that we stay in relationships so long as we can convince ourselves that the good outweighs the bad, and so long as we convince ourselves of this, we choose to interpret events as "non-harmful" or ultimately "worthwhile". But we always have the option to re-interpret. We always have the ability to wake up and say "that wasn't a healthy BDSM relationship, that was abuse". And anyone can do this with any relationship, at any time. There is no magic behavior that is non-abusive. There is no magic line where kink crosses into abuse. There's just labels we hang on things, because we want to call things "good" and "bad" to make people look better or worse.

Worse than that: there is no such thing as consent in the moment. There is only consent after the fact, and that can always be revoked. No matter how many documents you have the other party sign, no matter how adamantly they swear, no matter how much you respect their safewords, if one day they wake up and say "I was raped", you raped them. If one day they wake up and say, "she manipulated me into that scene", you non-consentually manipulated him into a scene. If one day they wake up and tell the local community, "he's a manipulative abuser and dangerous", and they are believed, guess what?


This is an interesting post, and I appreciate you putting it out there.  In some ways, but not all, I can relate to what you said.  For me, what used to feel good began not feeling so good.  I communicated this, as I communicated all my thoughts and feelings to him.  Over time, I felt emotionally starved.  I communicated that as well, explaining the whys and hows, and waited it out, hoping for resolution or a chance to talk about it.  I began feeling things really weren't right, and yet, as mentioned in the OP, I kept doing (or, trying to do) as I was told and trusting in him.  The result was that I became depressed, lethargic, confused and frustrated.  The resolution was that he let me go.  Painful, yes, but ultimately it was the best thing to do given the circumstances.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 8:06:48 PM   
catize


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I have been thinking along these lines myself.  There are activities that I have submitted to which have created changes to my body.  A few months ago I was feeling resentful about fisting and what it has done to my vaginal walls.  I’m not sure why I was so focused on that; after all both R. and S. have assured me they appreciate my body just fine while I was feeling bitter.
Another example is that I had one nipple pierced because my first dominant demanded it.  It resulted in suffering for a year with infections, rounds of antibiotics that caused side effects and was only resolved with surgery from which I bear a scar straight across my nipple.  If I spent much time thinking about it, I could begrudge the experience and I could, (but no longer do) blame him. 
 
It has occurred to me that other life events could have produced the same results.  Would I feel angry if, for instance, my vaginal changes were from giving birth multiple times?  The breast surgeon told me the type of infection I had sometimes has no known cause—who would I blame if that had been the case?
 
My body bears scars from several surgeries and accidents.  I was not ‘harmed’ by a person but by happenstance. Why is it easier to feel serene about what life has dealt me and more difficult to accept what another person purposely or inadvertently caused?
 
Experience and the trust I have for both R. and S. have taught me to focus less on the potential harm (whether real or imagined) and allowed me to be at peace with the consequences of their (and my) decisions.  I know it is not destructive because overall what we have feels right and good. 
 
I believe that submission has helped me to be more forgiving, more willing to let go of shock and anger. I know that what I have now is not destructive because I may suffer a little, I may be physically and sometimes emotionally altered, but I am not broken. 

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 8:35:52 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

What happens then, when someone realizes that they have made decisions or followed someone else’s decisions and it has led or is leading them down a path that was destructive for them? 
 
I am just answering this part.
 
When a person realizes that what they are doing is destructive for them, they need to decide what they are going to do about the situation to change it, so that it is no longer destructive.  They need to be an adult and take responsibility for where their life is at and where it is going and how and if they are going to change it. 
 
You say that you are going to continue trusting him.  That is your choice.  This means that you cannot come back later and blame him.  (I know that this is not a personal issue.)  Instead you have to be responsible for yourself and your decisions (YOU decided that you would continue trusting him, he did not decide this for you.)
 
As adults we must accept that ultimatly our actions and decisions are our own individual responsibility and that means no whinging about it after the fact.   

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 8:42:24 PM   
masterforRT


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Status: offline 		I believe that ultimately adult people need to be responsible for themselves. Not only that, if you have young children, your responsibility extends to them as well. If ANY kind of destructive behavior is occuring (especially abusive behavior), then YOU have to remove yourself (or your children) from it! This isn't limited to BDSM-it applies to ALL facets of everyday life!

Unfortunately, too often this doesn't occur, with sometimes tragic consequences.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 8:55:11 PM   
LATEXBABY64


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Status: offline 		what is more valuable your life or a dom that really does not care    would you damage your favorite car  somethings we do to please others are not worth tragic end

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 9:18:06 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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Status: offline 		Luck.  Usually so far when it hits the point of being really utterly wrong for me, life will throw a new perspective at me, a new option.  Then it's really clear really fast how sucked into that wrong place I was.

Most of the time we're doing what we feel is best, or we're trying our best to "make it work."  I think asking the question "Do I feel more secure and like I'm growing into who I want to be?" is a good start.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 9:18:46 PM   
MadRabbit


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Status: offline 		-FR-

Hmmmm....

I appreciate your post, Kara and get the point of what your attempting to say. I find the issue of "harm" to be something incredibly complex and the solution to avoiding harm or preventing harm to one's self or one's charge to be something that cannot be boiled down into a one-line bumper sticker.

The fear of causing "harm" to a girl was something that plagued my mind for a long time, but I came to accept the fact that no matter how hard I tried, I would not be able to come up with some set of criterion that I could religiously follow that would prevent "harm" from ever happening. Soooo...in light of that...I just decided to settle for trusting myself instead .

I consider harm to be a "deterioration in the physical, emotional or emotion health" of myself or my partner. Recognizing it, preventing it, and stopping it comes down to having faith in my own intellect and my benevolence as a person. When it does happen (I say "when" and "does", because in all probability, despite how good our intentions are, it will (and "has" in my case)), then to quote your Lord, old decisions and their consequences provide new information for us to make better decisions.

I've found that it's the only way you can really look at it without driving yourself crazy with worry or guilt. 


< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/17/2008 9:19:19 PM >

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 9:24:09 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

You say that you are going to continue trusting him.  That is your choice.  This means that you cannot come back later and blame him.  (I know that this is not a personal issue.)  Instead you have to be responsible for yourself and your decisions (YOU decided that you would continue trusting him, he did not decide this for you.)
 


I love what you wrote here, mostly because it applies to what my situation was.  While I might still feel anger for the way things were handled, I am the one who ultimately chose to be there and to accept what he was doing.  Admittedly, the part I bolded above is what I am still processing.  Thanks for writing it, as it reminded me of something I needed to remember.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 9:31:42 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

what is more valuable your life or a dom that really does not care    would you damage your favorite car  somethings we do to please others are not worth tragic end


To lump the cause of harm into the category of "doms who don't care" really does an injustice to the issue of harm itself. As individuals, we like to fall prey to the idea that whatever it is we do is always "righteous" and above being "wrong" or "evil" and as such, I've found a lot of harm that is caused stems from a place of good and well meaned intentions.

Your own analogy proves this point, because there is countless examples in daily life that we can all relate to of car owners who trully care and cherish their vehicles, but yet somehow...still manage to damage them.

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Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 10:06:24 PM   
marieToo


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I've experienced relationships in which red flags were there, but I saw them as something other than warning signs, I explained them away, or my mind distorted them into whatever I needed to see them as.  Then after it was over, and not even immediately after, but some time after it was over, it was like a fog lifted and I saw things as they actually were.  Looking back, I can't believe I didn't see certain things the way I should have.  I'm not sure what it is that makes me temporarily blinded like that, except maybe being emotionally involved or maybe wanting something to be a particular way so badly that I convince myself that it's good when it really isn't.

I can analogize this with an optical illusion.  It's like when you're staring at something so closely that your eyes and brain begin to contort something to look like something other than what it is.  But once you step far enough away from it, blink your eyes and look again, it all comes into focus with complete clarity.

I'm not sure how to recognize this while it's happening instead of after, but I've learned to ask myself one question when I'm having doubts.  "Does this relationship make you feel good?".  This seems to be pretty foolproof, because we can logic anything out when we want to convince ourselves of something, but you can't get it wrong when you ask yourself how does this feel.  This is why I try to rely on my feelings rather than on logic.  It just seems more foolproof for me.  Logic is too easy to twist in your mind, but feelings always hold the truth.  No matter how much you want to convince yourself of something with reasoning and rationale, if you feel shitty in the relationship, then the truth is that the relationship is bad for you.  The tough part is walking away from it sometimes.
 
 

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 10:09:29 PM   
MasterBrat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Often in discussions on limits/boundaries or harm the focus is on extreme situations where the potential for harm is quite high.  However, how often in life are we faced with such black and white issues for the decisions that we make or the decisions of another that we follow?  How often do we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the path we are about to take will result in harm to ourselves?  How often is it that only in hindsight do we realize that we have been harmed?  I am deliberately being vague about what harm is or what the situations are because I am not trying to define for others what is or is not harmful

[......]

How do you know that you are on a self-destructive path, whether you are the one making the decisions or following the decisions?  What do you watch for?  What do you do when you realize that you are there?  What other thoughts do you have?

Knight’s Kyra


If we are going to explore harm, what is the definition of harm?

Once we figured out that then the next big question is whose standard applies?

Once we figured out that then by what right do we have to impose our respective beliefs on the dynamic of another?

It's really nice to sit back and judge and judge and judge. Really it is. But.....

What if the dynamic consists of a group of people that live on the fine line between life and death?

We take the top 10 people in lot A and they say OMG that is harm, we MUST put a stop to it.
We take the top 10 people in lot B and they say OMG that could be harm, we NEED to educate them on what they are doing.

We take the top 10 people in lot C and they say OMG are you kidding its dangerous, its not harm, sure they are playing with fire.

We take the top 10 people in lot D and the say OMG are you people for real, it's a thrill, its enjoyable, yes we are playing with fire and it's  loads of fun.

Then we take the top 10 people in lot E that have no life of their own that which to impose their standards on everyone else because they have nothing really better to do.... and it sounds like this.......

I once told this: Until they come up with an Olympics sports on BDSM there is no standard that can be applied onto any dynamic by anyone outside of it for any reason, under any justification, regardless of your "good well meaning intentions", no matter how well you spin it. Period. I am utterly amused by the number of people that sit around and judge and apply what works for them as though it applies across the entire ranges of dynamics, as though their standard is suddenly "the standard". And, even if their standard is shared by the top 1,000,000 from lot F, it in no shape, fashion or form negates or otherwise deminishes anyone in lot G that enjoy living on the edge between life and death.





< Message edited by MasterBrat -- 9/17/2008 10:15:28 PM >

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 11:31:50 PM   
patina


Posts: 493
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

-FR-

Hmmmm....

I appreciate your post, Kara and get the point of what your attempting to say. .......sic

The fear of causing "harm" to a girl was something that plagued my mind for a long time......sic

I consider harm to be a "deterioration in the physical, emotional or emotion health" of myself or my partner. Recognizing it, preventing it, and stopping it comes down to having faith in my own intellect and my benevolence as a person. When it does happen (I say "when" and "does", because in all probability, despite how good our intentions are, it will (and "has" in my case)), then to quote your Lord, old decisions and their consequences provide new information for us to make better decisions.




greetings kara:

i have always known on one level that the Dom;s "job" was harder than a slave but your post put a completely different perspective of it into my head to ponder.  It makes it even more clearer to me that a slave must really be sure who she gives herself too.  We need to really understand even the ethical and mentality of the master to know we will be kept as safe as possibe.  As MadRabbit says even though he tries things will happen.  i hope a lot of sub/ slaves read this thread and learn from it.  It has made me think a lot more thank you kara and others.

patina

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/17/2008 11:46:08 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
How do you know that you are on a self-destructive path, whether you are the one making the decisions or following the decisions?  What do you watch for?  What do you do when you realize that you are there?  What other thoughts do you have?


Hello dearest Kyra.  Regards to Knight and Alandra.
 
I do not believe that people do know they are on a self destructive path most of the time.  Obviously there are exceptions.  Those are usually people who stand back and look at themselves and question if they and the relationship are growing, so if it isn't, that is something I would look out for.  What to do?  That's up to individuals.  And you cannot make people see it, they have to make the decisions for themselves.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 4:34:52 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
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Status: offline 		Well, if I have a panic attack then it's pretty obvious that what we're doing isn't good for me.
Beyond that, I've had enough therapy to know what I feel. And to identify when I'm feeling scared all of the time, afraid of attracting someone's attention, looking to not be noticed, and generally more insecure.

Since I do know myself this well, I don't really worry about being in a situation of long term harm or emotional abuse. Btdt. It won't happen again. But of course, as I know I've said elsewhere, this is one reason why I did not seek out an emotional sadist as a partner, because I already knew it would be harmful for me.

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:21:36 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		i think what kyra was referring to is more about an overall generalized change that occurs over time...like wear and tear. Am i the same girl i was 15 yrs ago? Hell to the no. Would i trade my battlescars for a less harmful past?....Honestly, sometimes i think i would. But my body is a relief map of my life and the choices that i made along my way. So are my emotional scars or current opinions on things...they are direct results of "harm" that has "befallen" me over the years. i am pleased with the lessons that i have learned. i have become a woman who knows what she wants and knows how and when she is ready to get it. i wouldnt know for sure what i want, or more specifically, what i dont want, without the harms of daily life.

eta...fast reply.

< Message edited by persephonee -- 9/18/2008 5:22:17 AM >

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And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

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RE: Crossing the Line of Harm - 9/18/2008 5:33:17 AM   
natasha66


Posts: 321
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From: NJ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
 
I've experienced relationships in which red flags were there, but I saw them as something other than warning signs, I explained them away, or my mind distorted them into whatever I needed to see them as.  Then after it was over, and not even immediately after, but some time after it was over, it was like a fog lifted and I saw things as they actually were.  Looking back, I can't believe I didn't see certain things the way I should have.  I'm not sure what it is that makes me temporarily blinded like that, except maybe being emotionally involved or maybe wanting something to be a particular way so badly that I convince myself that it's good when it really isn't. 



Speaking strictly for myself, in a previous relationship, red flags were definitely there, but it was only way after the fact that i could really take a look at them and see the situation for what it had been.  Hind sight is, as they say, 20-20.  Sad to say it often takes an outsider to point out what's wrong in a situation.

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Collared June 4th, 2008
Love is giving him the power to destroy you, but trusting him not to.



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