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RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 9:36:53 PM   
Chimortis


Posts: 39
Joined: 8/29/2009
From: Morgantown, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Edited to add: The hard limits you mentioned were sexual. Did you make certain that you told her your commands would extend to non-sexual things, like commanding her to sing? If she is new to this, I wouldn't consider it unreasonable for it to just not have occured to her that you expect everything to be obeyed, particularly if she had stated a preference for a more vanilla situation.


This is a very valid point, and one which you should probably think about a bit before having that heart to heart talk. I think a little introspection on your part in terms of how to approach that based on your previous interactions/negotiations with her will really help you nail down the points you want to discuss and how to most effectively discuss them.


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(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 9:44:43 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

So I am driving to Busch Gardens to take my new slave to a 2 day trip. I was driving and I asked her to sing to me, she said she doesn't sing. I said neither do I but that I would show her it could be done and sang an old Lefty Frizzel tune.  She siad she still wouldn't sing.

After a nice steak dinner I told her I would like her to sing a simple nursery ryhme and again she refused.  I am about to take her back home without going to the Amusement Park in the morning (I am too tired to drive home tonight)

I need advise.


This post says much less about her commitment as your slave, to your collar and her submission to you as her Master, than it says a great deal about your lack of experience, ability and Mastery.

The smart Masters I know together with the experienced ones all who are comfortable in their Mastery, may face such a thing and even rarely seek advise from a peer but not a single one would wine and hang such dirty personal laundry in a public forum. I'd be too ashamed and mortified to show my face in public if I did that probable for a decade. But them I have personal pride.

Just my personal opinion which has just as much value as anyone wants to vest in it.


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(in reply to CougarStud)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 9:51:34 PM   
DePubed


Posts: 71
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline 		When the princes and princesses of European Courts were being educated, one of the principles that they were taught was  "It is better to 'overlook' than to 'forgive'."
The concept was that when a person in power, in authority, notices that someone beneath them has been disrespectful,there are two ways of reacting:
(1) OVERLOOK IT AND PRETEND THAT YOU DIDNT NOTICE THE DISRESPECT;
or
(2) FORGIVE IT--which weakens your authority since it shows that you not only  recognized the disrespect but  that somehow you are allowing for the subject to show the disrespect. No, No, It is better to overlook the insult, to act as if you didnt notice it, to mask over it,  rather than to forgive it. 
Thus it was considered better to overlook it rather than to forgive it.
Maybe with Dom.sub the same principle can be used.  If the slave is asked to sing but refuses, maybe the Dom should pretend to overlook it, pretend not to notice it is a refusa; instead, at the moment pretend to be distracted by something else and to 'forget' that a confrontation was brewing. This is wisdom: to know how to overlook and to pretend not to notice.It preserves your respect . But to forgive is giving someone a 'free pass', in effect saying, 'yes, you disrespected me, but I am going to let it go.'
Either way,whether  'overlooking' or 'forgiving' you  'let it go', but 'overlooking' protects your status, whereas forgiving weakens you and sets you up for the next time when it will happen again.age


(in reply to CougarStud)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 10:03:27 PM   
RealSub58


Posts: 1073
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

Really! Come on guys, this is a little much huh? Her refusal to sing is not going to destroy their relationship!! Aren't we putting a little too much emphasis on this? 


WHO said anything about destroying a relationship????  I got mad and said "okay,don't sing"  and asked a question about what it could possibly mean and how to deal with it and I have gotten fine advise.  I am not one to immediatly react to my emotional response, but rather to logically think about how best to deal with it.

It is not the singing that bothers me but her refusal of something so simple and playful. 

I now see it could be:

1.  early trama.
2. she doesn't understand her role
3. she is a spoiled brat
4. she is not comfortable enough with me to let down her guard

or it could be a number of other things and it is my job to calmly figure it out and decide if it is an important issue or not.

All I said was that it mad me really mad and nothing more.



quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


As much as the v word gets a bad rap around here, starting out "vanilla" with a bit of d/s isn't such a terrible, awful thing. You are learning, she is learning. Learn together and change your relationship as you go and as you both feel comfortable. If you honestly think you two would be a good match, you might want to consider setting the rules where you are comfortable now and seeing where things go.


I've done enough "vanilla" to know  that is what I DO NOT want ever again!!!
 

This response is hardly non-reactive.  If you are like this response to your girl......
I know what I'd be thinking......  if I sing she'll use corporal punishment cuz I am pretty bad at singing.

A little less defensiveness when asking and responding on forums is a good start. 

< Message edited by RealSub58 -- 9/23/2009 10:05:07 PM >

(in reply to CougarStud)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 10:07:31 PM   
Chimortis


Posts: 39
Joined: 8/29/2009
From: Morgantown, WV
Status: offline 		DePubed, I tend to disagree fairly strongly. That works when you have a large number of subjects, most of whom you just don't care about. In the context of a deeply intimate personal relationship, however, it does not.


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:06:57 PM   
RealSub58


Posts: 1073
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed

When the princes and princesses of European Courts were being educated, one of the principles that they were taught was  "It is better to 'overlook' than to 'forgive'."
The concept was that when a person in power, in authority, notices that someone beneath them has been disrespectful,there are two ways of reacting:
(1) OVERLOOK IT AND PRETEND THAT YOU DIDNT NOTICE THE DISRESPECT;
or
(2) FORGIVE IT--which weakens your authority since it shows that you not only  recognized the disrespect but  that somehow you are allowing for the subject to show the disrespect. No, No, It is better to overlook the insult, to act as if you didnt notice it, to mask over it,  rather than to forgive it. 
Thus it was considered better to overlook it rather than to forgive it.




Like Chimortis wrote....  but I will also add, a well known published child psychologist states that this is the way of teaching children incorrect behaviour (not behaviour a parent/domme wants).

I also want to say after I went and read the first posting on punishment.... and the fact that you firstly went into this just for kinky sex........
changing course from kinky sex as a top to an M/s relationship takes alot more change on your part than you realize.   Having been in a situation (M/s) where the twue dumbinant wanted blind obedience, ignored true punishment and discipline chosing rather to ram his cock in frustration down my thoat, which I loved obedient or not and I was rarely disobedient...but when I walked over a boundary he NEVER told me about.......
I was ignored and finally down the road at some juncture I knew his domliness was only kinky sex and I was tired his tired lazy sore ass NOT asking me respectfully why I would NOT have a gnagbang without his physicl presence and I had to screen all these men.

Presently, I KNOW Sir would treat your offenses VERY differently ----- only because I am not his first girl, "project" and he has a dozen plus years over me in this D/s stuff.

1)  Overslept when I told her to wake at 7am
He'd ask me why.  If my reason was precise, sincere and ligitamite-- no discipline/punishment. 
2)  Missed her exercises one day
Again the same as #1, but with my knees, and back pain he expects this more than once a week, and I do tell him.
3)  Gave herself and orgasm without my permission
Today he told me there were only four [4] rememdies to this and I did known of them.... so yes, am do for OTK and it will hurt like hell and he knows I neither like the brush or the cane, so I am not expecting "fun punishment" but emotional as well as physical.  Is my punishment/discipline "FUN" for him.....
NO !

Ms CS  you need to learn your trade (dominance, control, authority, whatever)  better cause I think it stinks and personally I would walk.  Your exercise program from what you have mentioned is bogus. 

Calling her a SPOILED BRAT, LAZY and other things will NEVER built her self esteem or garner trust for you.

Finally --  you will never make a slave out of a girl whose will and mind is not yours to command.   Is she really all that into you or does she just have the new infatuated M/s craze??

I am rather blunt tonight, opinionated but I believe truthful
and sincere in what I have said based on both threads and your profile.

(in reply to DePubed)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:21:12 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

I think you are making too big a deal of it honey. Is it vital to the relationship that she sing to you? If not...don't throw away a good thing for a silly request.

Her ability to obey is vital to the relationship. A slave choosing not to happily acquiesce to hir D-type's demands over something that is not dangerous or health-threatening is the most paramount form of insult.

The slave, in this instance, has chosen to render her relationship ambivalent because of ineptitutde and the fear/inability to explain why or via being too block-headed and/or incongruent in mentality to being a slave, not the OP for expecting the slave to actually behave like one.


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I know they're all insane
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I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to Sunnyfey)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:22:25 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

she thinks it is "uncool"

And I'd find it "uncool" being in an M/s dynamic with someone who thinks whimsy is sufficient reason for not obeying.


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"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:24:02 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

This is a new slave to you... you claim her as your slave and yet becasue she has a struggle with something you are ready to ditch the rest of the trip? That would only add to her fears or whatever is causing her to hold back. What happened to the dominant assisting, building up and guiding? What does dominant mean to you?

Being dominant doesn't mean I have to imbue a submissive (a slave, no less) with the ability to act like one if she's chosen to enter into that sort of dynamic. Being a slave and/or submissive does not absolve you of actually being responsible to the roles you've vowed to undertake.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:26:20 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirlbc

i think you need to acknowledge that you have a learning curve here as a Master and Dom, just as she does as a slave. no reason why you can't learn together.

Outright refusal may be part of the learning curve of a submissive who expressed needing time to become comfortable with how xhe expresses hir servitude and submission, but outright refusal is not a learning curve issue for someone choosing to be a slave any more than ability to swim is for someone choosing to be a lifeguard.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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(in reply to slavegirlbc)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:29:06 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

Really! Come on guys, this is a little much huh? Her refusal to sing is not going to destroy their relationship!! Aren't we putting a little too much emphasis on this? 

No.

It destroys the context of the relationship because the individual is not what they've advertised themselves to be.

You may as well ask of an online relationship is worth being destroyed because the person you have been developing a connection with turns out to be of another gender than what you'd presumed.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:30:39 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

yes, I am new to this and am not to proud to ask for imput.

I think she is wanting a mostly vanilla relationship with me and a bit of the D/s

For the sake of context, why do you refer to her as "slave" then?


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:31:45 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Pretty good advice there, which I'd likely follow, depending on what kind of mood I was in

She thought it was "uncool".... ay, yi.

Either she's going to have to do what you want, or not. That's either going to have to be okay with you, or not.

Get back in the car... ask her to sing again. She says "no", pull over. Look her in the eye, and ask her how "cool" disobeying you is. How "cool" letting you down is. Get an answer, not some bullshit "I don't know" mumbly nonsense. Then evaluate.

20 points.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:32:58 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/24/2009 12:10:09 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:33:11 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

So I am driving to Busch Gardens to take my new slave to a 2 day trip. I was driving and I asked her to sing to me, she said she doesn't sing. I said neither do I but that I would show her it could be done and sang an old Lefty Frizzel tune.  She siad she still wouldn't sing.

After a nice steak dinner I told her I would like her to sing a simple nursery ryhme and again she refused.  I am about to take her back home without going to the Amusement Park in the morning (I am too tired to drive home tonight)

I need advise.


Well I assume singing is not a hard limit. Direct and what appears to be defiant disaobendience. Denial of contact for a time appears to be in order, which is something I would rarely recommend except in extreme cases such as this. She did not just cross the line, she stomped on it, Permenant dismissal is also an option you may wish to consider

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:37:31 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

I think you are making too big a deal of it honey. Is it vital to the relationship that she sing to you? If not...don't throw away a good thing for a silly request.


So it is you belief that submissive should get to chose which commands she wishes to obey?

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
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(in reply to Sunnyfey)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:42:56 PM   
Sunnyfey


Posts: 1436
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: OK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

I think you are making too big a deal of it honey. Is it vital to the relationship that she sing to you? If not...don't throw away a good thing for a silly request.


So it is you belief that submissive should get to chose which commands she wishes to obey?


A submissive yes, a submissive has a right to choose. a woman who does not ID as a slave, a woman who is "vanilla" with D/s interests. Yeah she has a right to say no to an order.


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:45:23 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: CougarStud

yes, I am new to this and am not to proud to ask for imput.

I think she is wanting a mostly vanilla relationship with me and a bit of the D/s

For the sake of context, why do you refer to her as "slave" then?


Just bringing this up again for clarity. We're back to earlier points:

1) Either she does not identify as "slave" in the way you do (having chosen to use the word "slave" in the OP now appears a bit misleading).
2) She's too green to what an M/s dynamic would require of her to understand how she should be acting/reacting in such a dynamic.
3) She understands what is to be expected of her, has willingly chosen to be in that role and is just clearly not genuinely fit for it.

Which is it?


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:46:36 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnyfey

A submissive yes, a submissive has a right to choose. a woman who does not ID as a slave, a woman who is "vanilla" with D/s interests. Yeah she has a right to say no to an order.

Which is why the OP's description of her partner is suddenly a confusing topic concerning the entire thread.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to Sunnyfey)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: A slaves refusal - 9/23/2009 11:50:20 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Using a hammer to force open a glass jar and experience the contents usually breaks it. A sadist (as a subset of narcissism) will lack empathy and not care what their partner feels. A sadist seeks a partner who enjoys getting broken.

If you care, you need to dig deeper into yourself and find your own empathy, which you can then apply to how she feels (not what she thinks).

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 60
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