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GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:04:09 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		OK rant time....

Through out the forum... We see how SOME Doms think that slaves have no rights. And in another post, they talk of honesty, communication, relating to one another. And then in yet another post, they state a slave can have feelings, thoughts, opinions, but that doesn't mean that said Dom has to pay attention to them. WTF??????

I find this not only confusing, but find it to be total bull. Unless the kink some want to live where the slave really doesn't have anything at all. That's all fine and dandy. But the flip flopping about it all leaves something to be desired. Actually less desirable. If I was using this site as a dating service, I would see the so called RED FLAGS everyones talking about right here on the forum.. forget the profiles. It makes trying to seek information for some newbies even more confused. And those actually seeking... seek elsewhere.

How can a submisive/slave... have trust and faith... with a flip flop Dom? How can a sub/slave believe in communication... if it's going to be ignored? How can a sub/slave express feelings, if it's going to be ignored??

Doms/Dommes... how can you expect your sub/slave to communicate their feelings, thoughts, ideas, if you see yourselfs within your right to totaly ignore them when they try?

Where does the communication actually come in at? Where does the sharing actually come in at? For that matter, where does the caring for what you own actually come into all this?

I look forward to the responses from the Doms and submissives on this. Owned or not. Do others see this? And if so. How does this make you feel as a Dom and or submissive/slave.

Sorry for the rant...




< Message edited by truesub4u -- 3/8/2006 3:16:10 PM >

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:06:39 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		Silly me...I thought this was going to be about flip flops.

To answer the OP...
confident
intelligent
artistic
masculine
relaxed
great sense of humor
great work ethic
proud
protective
consistent

These are the characteristics that I listed in the Traits of a Dom thread.
I find that, for me, if one has some of these, especially confidence, intelligence, pride, and consistency
then communication and respect between two people becomes much easier.
The end result...a lot less red flags and a lot less flip flopping.
I think the most important thing in lessening the flip flop is to be able to talk and to listen to each other.

< Message edited by Aileen68 -- 3/8/2006 3:20:35 PM >

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:09:02 PM   
amaidiamond


Posts: 1793
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Watford / London
Status: offline 		As a submissive i would have a great deal of trouble having a Dom that i felt i could not be honest with, even if your relationship is one where the sub/slave has *no* rights I think there surely has to be some sort of out time, time where things can be discussed and opinions heard, as a sub i need to be able to trust my Dom 100%, I need to know they will listen to me and do what best for me, I couldn't handle thinking that sometimes they would and sometimes they would not as if on a whim, it needs to be clearly defined for me where the bounderys lie. Just mho.

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:12:28 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u
How can a submisive/slave... have trust and faith... with a flip flop Dom?

If you KNOW the dom will flip flop a lot, you can learn how to deal with the situation very easily. My ex owner always said "I'm very consistent, except when I'm not"

Yes, confusing. Yes, sometimes hard and annoying. But honestly, I learned how to deal with that part of the relationship pretty well.

quote:

How can a sub/slave believe in communication... if it's going to be ignored?

Communicating "I understand how you feel" is not the same "And I will do exactly what you suggest"

quote:

How can a sub/slave express feelings, if it's going to be ignored??

Sometimes feelings should be ignored. I know I can be irrational sometimes. In most situations of course feelings should be understood and expressed, but sometimes the best route really IS to just shut up and do it. In some M/s situations, the slave knows going into it that this is exactly the standard to which they will be kept.


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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:20:39 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Sounds like you are refering to the Gorean view of things truesub lass... I have no ideas when the slaves involved ina M/s situation do but from a Gorean perspective a slave has only the rights, name, cloths and even food which I grant her. She is property. Albeit, loved and cared for property.... Sure slaves have feelings and opinions. They are encouraged to have both. How and when they express their opinions and/or vent or otherwise display their feelings is my perogative..... Sound harsh? Tough? Unjust? Yeah Gor is like that just as life is unless you take life by the balls and understand what these things mean.... A wise master is not unfeeling and values his kajira/ae. he will allow her to express herself andin fact most enjoy having an intelligent girl with whome they can converse on diverse subjects...It is the timing and attitude which is important.... I can say that a girl who seeks a Gorean Collar knows whwt she is getting intoand this is why she has a fire burning insatiably in her belly, it is what she craves.. To be owned totally.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/8/2006 3:21:51 PM >

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:24:36 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		Personally, even though i am a slave, imo my feelings should never be ignored... they are my feelings for a reason and if they are ignored, it means i am nothing more than furniture (yes i DO realize Some Masters/Doms think this is how a slave should be treated)... but that wouldn't make me a slave, it would make me furniture. i can, however, certainly understand being told to go 'think' about my feelings and how i may or may not have reacted to said feelings. But i would be putting on my walking shoes and hitting the door the first time something so basic as human emotion is ignored.

Just my opinion.

sorry i'm not sure this addressed the thread.. will go back and re-read it.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:26:45 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Sounds like you are refering to the Gorean view of things truesub lass... I have no ideas when the slaves involved ina M/s situation do but from a Gorean perspective a slave has only the rights, name, cloths and even food which I grant her. She is property. Albeit, loved and cared for property.... Sure slaves have feelings and opinions. They are encouraged to have both. How and when they express their opinions and/or vent or otherwise display their feelings is my perogative..... Sound harsh? Tough? Unjust? Yeah Gor is like that just as life is unless you take life by the balls and understand what these things mean.... A wise master is not unfeeling and values his kajira/ae. he will allow her to express herself andin fact most enjoy having an intelligent girl with whome they can converse on diverse subjects...It is the timing and attitude which is important.... I can say that a girl who seeks a Gorean Collar knows whwt she is getting intoand this is why she has a fire burning insatiably in her belly, it is what she craves.. To be owned totally.


Ironbear,

Knowing not near the amount of Gor lifestyle as you.. for I do not live it.. ... I think I posted more on the more M/s side of this. But yet at same time, I agree with you on the timing. But when the time comes... how can one communicate, express themselves... if they know they're going to be ignored.. or their owner.. on whim.. says.. I agree.. but yet still ignores them?

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:35:57 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Maybe its just a female/male thing/dilemma, woman need to be listened to etc...men tolerate our need for deep and meaninfuls etc..you know that men are from mars, women are from venus thing...so its not that male Dominants ignore it...its just they think differently or whatever...which would explain the.."I believe in communication thing" yet maybe its not playing out fully.. just cuz they just communicate differently...

Just thoughts.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:36:25 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Sounds like you are refering to the Gorean view of things truesub lass... I have no ideas when the slaves involved ina M/s situation do but from a Gorean perspective a slave has only the rights, name, cloths and even food which I grant her. She is property. Albeit, loved and cared for property.... Sure slaves have feelings and opinions. They are encouraged to have both. How and when they express their opinions and/or vent or otherwise display their feelings is my perogative..... Sound harsh? Tough? Unjust? Yeah Gor is like that just as life is unless you take life by the balls and understand what these things mean.... A wise master is not unfeeling and values his kajira/ae. he will allow her to express herself andin fact most enjoy having an intelligent girl with whome they can converse on diverse subjects...It is the timing and attitude which is important.... I can say that a girl who seeks a Gorean Collar knows whwt she is getting intoand this is why she has a fire burning insatiably in her belly, it is what she craves.. To be owned totally.


Ironbear,

Knowing not near the amount of Gor lifestyle as you.. for I do not live it.. ... I think I posted more on the more M/s side of this. But yet at same time, I agree with you on the timing. But when the time comes... how can one communicate, express themselves... if they know they're going to be ignored.. or their owner.. on whim.. says.. I agree.. but yet still ignores them?


truesub, hopa wicincala,

A wise master will tell his girl that they need to talk openly. In other words he will invite her to talk about what is troubling her or what is making her happyand about anything as long as she speaks respectfully. Said trik may also (assuming she picks the time) beg for time to talk openly.... Masters aren't usually blind and mostly know their property so well that they can predict things and will certainly know if something is wrong. Never believe that a kajira believes she will not be listened to or that her feelings or fears will be discounted... A master who was stupid enough to ignor her feelings etc, could reasonably expect his property to beg for release and thus he becomes a failed Master, (Something which many Masters go through as part of their own journey).

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:44:05 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
truesub, hopa wicincala,

A wise master will tell his girl that they need to talk openly. In other words he will invite her to talk about what is troubling her or what is making her happyand about anything as long as she speaks respectfully. Said trik may also (assuming she picks the time) beg for time to talk openly.... Masters aren't usually blind and mostly know their property so well that they can predict things and will certainly know if something is wrong. Never believe that a kajira believes she will not be listened to or that her feelings or fears will be discounted... A master who was stupid enough to ignor her feelings etc, could reasonably expect his property to beg for release and thus he becomes a failed Master, (Something which many Masters go through as part of their own journey).



Breaks out dictionary... hoping it has Gor language in it as well... <smiles>

Thank you Ironbear.. now I have not only a little homework.. but feel alittle less frustrated in knowing that not all Doms think that submissive/slaves... are not human beings.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:44:35 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		i understand a slave "having no rights" as having only the rights her Master gives to her. In my case, and in that context, i have the right to communicate, the right to be heard, the right to be treated fairly and honestly. (Well, sometimes fairly is in question, lol). i have those rights because he has deemed it so. If he were a Master who did not believe in granting such rights, i would not have begged his collar.

It IS within my Master's right to ignore my feelings, or treat me however he wishes - even poorly. But he is smart enough to know that if he does, my response to that will not give him the benefit he currently enjoys in a slave. He does not want a frightened and withdrawn slave, he wants a happy, lustful, adoring slave, and he knows the way to foster that does not include continually squelching her.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:46:04 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

i understand a slave "having no rights" as having only the rights her Master gives to her. In my case, and in that context, i have the right to communicate, the right to be heard, the right to be treated fairly and honestly. (Well, sometimes fairly is in question, lol). i have those rights because he has deemed it so. If he were a Master who did not believe in granting such rights, i would not have begged his collar.

It IS within my Master's right to ignore my feelings, or treat me however he wishes - even poorly. But he is smart enough to know that if he does, my response to that will not give him the benefit he currently enjoys in a slave. He does not want a frightened and withdrawn slave, he wants a happy, lustful, adoring slave, and he knows the way to foster that does not include continually squelching her.


well freaking said, owned!!!

_____________________________

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:48:20 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

Breaks out dictionary... hoping it has Gor language in it as well... <smiles>

Thank you Ironbear.. now I have not only a little homework.. but feel alittle less frustrated in knowing that not all Doms think that submissive/slaves... are not human beings.


Red Savages Language taken mainly from the Sioux Nation....

"hopa wicincala" = Beautiful girl.....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 3:53:48 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		There are times when feelings should not be "fed." Ignored means not even acknowledged, which also means he turns a blind eye to them. So i agree feelings should not be ignored.

But in the example LA used, if i am completely overreacting to something and not stopping to listen to him but arguing endlessly instead, he will turn away, until i change my frame of mind and can express myself and listen to him calmly. i call that discipline, rather than ignoring. i disagree, however, that feelings should not be expressed, particularly if the slave is required to be transparent and express everything. The sub/slave just needs to express such feelings appropriately.


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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:02:23 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

i understand a slave "having no rights" as having only the rights her Master gives to her. In my case, and in that context, i have the right to communicate, the right to be heard, the right to be treated fairly and honestly. (Well, sometimes fairly is in question, lol). i have those rights because he has deemed it so. If he were a Master who did not believe in granting such rights, i would not have begged his collar.

It IS within my Master's right to ignore my feelings, or treat me however he wishes - even poorly. But he is smart enough to know that if he does, my response to that will not give him the benefit he currently enjoys in a slave. He does not want a frightened and withdrawn slave, he wants a happy, lustful, adoring slave, and he knows the way to foster that does not include continually squelching her.


well freaking said, owned!!!



OK.. I can see now.. this is going to be a deep discussion for me... (going to put on the coffee after this post)... because I've known slaves.. and submissives... and this.. "A slave has no rights" just doesn't fly with me. Now I'm not popping off on anyones beliefs. It's only my opinion. Because some have stated in other posts that a slave has no rights... not even to ask for release.. but yet.. MOST will agree... she does maintain that right. So there for a slave DOES have rights.

If a Master sees fit to mistreat said sub/slave... she has the option to stay or walk. Now i'm not talking physical abuse here.. (lord knows we don't need that dead horse here... lol) I'm refering to the mental... and emotional aspects here. and only on the notion that the sub/slave sees this.. not someone else.

But then again we join back the ranks of flip flops... flip.. he listens... flops.. he ignores... flip.. she stays.. flops.. she walks. This has got to be causing a strain on both parties. When from the get so.. it's the Doms responsiblity (To quote others here now) to make sure things run smoothly in their domain.

So a Dom decides... Looky here slave.. from now on.. keep all thoughts.. ideas... feelings.. opinions to your own damn self.... Don't know about others.. but after I stop laughing... I'm headed for the door. But he asks me to stay.. and we'll work on things together.. next go around.. same thing... he claims to listen.. nods his head.. even gives feed back.. but simply ignores it all.......... DING DING DING...... there's sub/slave.. headed to the door again.

See the pattern??? So again it's asked.... how can a sub/slave... feel free to open up.. communicate... express... when they know deep down.. they're going to be ignored again?

< Message edited by truesub4u -- 3/8/2006 4:04:57 PM >

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:06:01 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		true, to me it's a little like 'no limits'... of course there are limits...

of course i have rights... i have rights to breathe and live...

imo 'no rights' doesn't exist anymore than 'no limits' does

(takes the dead horse out back again) LOL

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:19:19 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

So a Dom decides... Looky here slave.. from now on.. keep all thoughts.. ideas... feelings.. opinions to your own damn self.... Don't know about others.. but after I stop laughing... I'm headed for the door. But he asks me to stay.. and we'll work on things together.. next go around.. same thing... he claims to listen.. nods his head.. even gives feed back.. but simply ignores it all.......... DING DING DING...... there's sub/slave.. headed to the door again.

See the pattern??? So again it's asked.... how can a sub/slave... feel free to open up.. communicate... express... when they know deep down.. they're going to be ignored again?


What you have here, my friend, is an unhealthy relationship. submissive, slave, or otherwise. i have witnessed this before, in others. And then the Dom wonders why oh why his girl is not so responsive anymore... So, either he realizes he is not getting what he wants and changes his methods so that he does, or they both continue miserably, or she asks release. If she asks release and it is not granted...well, we've had those threads before - she is not legally bound to him, is she.

In my case, Master says i can always ask for release, and he can always say No. LOL. But it is not so black & white with him, and knowing him, i am confident that he would opt to try to fix the problem and keep a slave who serves him well, than to ignore it or get rid of it.

i feel fairly certain however that stifling a person's feelings generally does not bring a positive outcome.

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:28:27 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

Breaks out dictionary... hoping it has Gor language in it as well... <smiles>

Thank you Ironbear.. now I have not only a little homework.. but feel alittle less frustrated in knowing that not all Doms think that submissive/slaves... are not human beings.


Red Savages Language taken mainly from the Sioux Nation....

"hopa wicincala" = Beautiful girl.....



Blushes... you're too kind.

But it figures.. Cherokee runs through my veins.. not Sioux <smiles>

_____________________________

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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:32:19 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I believe a wise Master will gather all facts and information they can, including the feelings and thoughts of their slave, then make the decisions he believes to be for the best for their relationship. Sometimes, Himself will make decisions based on facts which I do not have, but it's not my place to do anything other than share my thoughts and feelings with him as he requires. I trusted him enough to want his collar and I know him well enough after all this time to do everything I can to keep it. I don't know whether he ignores my thoughts and feelings or not because I don't question the decisions which he makes. He decrees I share myself with him so that's what I do. I know sometimes I make suggestions and low and behold, they come to fruition and sometimes they don't. That's always up to him.

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:43:08 PM   
Slipstreme


Posts: 817
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Looky here slave.. from now on.. keep all thoughts.. ideas... feelings.. opinions to your own damn self....


I believe you are referring to a post where one of the Doms mentioned that a slave has feelings but that he doesnt need to serve on them. Which is true. However, vice versa, this is human behaviour, whether or not to ignore the feelings of another.

Is it a good thing? No.

If a person in a relationship, ANY relationship be it D/s, M/s, Gorean, or just plain 'nilla, if they are holding back what they truely feel, it will eventually destroy that relationship. Period. Simple. End of story. However, it is still up to the other person, be they a Dominant, a submissive, a Master or simply a boyfriend/girlfriend to decide whether or not to ignore that person. This will cause contention and is still not a good way to go about a relationship. I have had this happen with a couple relationships in my past, one which I carried on for a year. If I had truely opened to that partner earlier on in the relationship, how I felt about him, there would have been less heartache in the end. Sure, there may be more protocol involved in how and when in an M/s situation, but I wouldn't know about that. I speak from 'nilla experience, and a lifetime of neglect with my peers.

So ignore feelings? Yes, I can. Most likely I won't, because I know enough about how ignoring them can effect the chemistry you have with another person.

However, I have built a wall around myself in the past to protect myself; a cold and callous shell. Truth be told, a submissive/slave ordered to keep it to themselves will seem more like this shell of a being, and it really didn't help my social life any. I don't see the benefit such would have to a Dominant.

Yes there are feelings that should be "ignored" at least in the sense that they should be assured irrelevant or unfounded and, if need be, comforted away. Cause yes, there are times such feelings are irrational and may be based on moodiness. (Example: We all know about PMS)

_____________________________

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Painslut? How about "Endorphin Junkie"?

For information about "the furry thing" please check out my profile journal entry for: 1/17/2006

Alpha of a leather family of four. Master to the slave z.

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