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RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 4:54:39 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
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truesub, it seems to me that you think that just because a Dom or Master listens to his sub/slave, he must act on eveything she expresses. This is simply not the case. For me it depends on what she's expressing, the reason behind what she's expressing (how rational it is) and it's over all effects that it may have.

For example: my current mate (free coompanion, wife, lover, significant other) expressed concern about the fact that I'm seeking a slave. She is not poly and had fears of me loving her less if there were to be another involved with me. I listened to her fear, wieghed how rational it was and told her that my feelings for her were unwaivering but if ever there were any doubts I would talk to her about them.

Three months later I met my current slave online. We talked, hit it off and decided we wanted more then just online. I told my mate and she stated again her fear. I stated again that my feelings for her had not changed but neither have my wants and needs for a slave. So I proceeded to enslave my slave but while doing so, have always been open, honest and listened to my mate.

I listened to my mates fears but instead of re-acting to them and not enslaving my girl, I ignored them and proceeded on with the enslavment. All the while reassuring my mate as to my feelings to her. A year and a half later, they both are still with me. My mate appreciates my slave for what she fulfills in me and our relationship.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 21

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 5:02:29 PM

IrishMist

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Joined: 11/17/2005
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I was trying to think of a good way to say it also, but MrDiscipline44 said it perfectly.

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 22

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 5:14:55 PM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

truesub, it seems to me that you think that just because a Dom or Master listens to his sub/slave, he must act on eveything she expresses. This is simply not the case.

Mr Discipline... being a submissive, I know not every Dom is going to act on things a sub/slave has expressed. But it also depends on the subject matter as well.

For Example.... Master I feel we can not go to Nashville Next month, the bills say no.... Master can say screw that...and still go.

Master... I do not feel I can be involved in a poly relationship.... Master really needs to listen.. and act on this.. to ignore this statement.. and go ahead without taking into account his sub/slave has mixed feelings... (granted in the end.. he has to decide.. if losing the sub/slave he has now.. is worth it or not) Especially when upon entering said relationship.. it was agreed on no polly. And now Master has changed his mind.

But that's been an example. Not something to actually argue over. It's the fear of communication, and expressing... because of past "ignorings".. how does the sub/slave express and communicate... Master.. we agreed no poly.. and for him to say.. STFU I decide.

It's the problems of communication.. expressing... when someone claims they believe in these... but yet.. turns the tables on the forums.. or in real life... to sit and say.. be honest.. tell me how you're feeling... why ask someone to be so open.. if you're going to ignore it??

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 23

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 5:27:16 PM

DragonNphoenix

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/2/2005
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I can understand this rant soooooooooooo well. But, I think of myself very lucky in that my Dragon does really care what I think and what I need/want and how/what I am feeling. I dont think that I could trust a Master that doesnt/wont listen to the slave that they say that they care for and want. These are the same ones that give their dogs the rights to the bed over the slave.

1st Girl Phoenix

_____________________________

**Pain is just pleasure with a twist**

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 24

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 5:47:47 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

For example: my current mate (free coompanion, wife, lover, significant other) expressed concern about the fact that I'm seeking a slave. She is not poly and had fears of me loving her less if there were to be another involved with me. I listened to her fear, wieghed how rational it was and told her that my feelings for her were unwaivering but if ever there were any doubts I would talk to her about them

since she is your free companion, wife, love, significant other.... not poly... what if she had said "you go to another, i go"... would your response have been different would you have weighed those consequences? just my own curiosity...

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 25

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 5:48:04 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
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Ok True...grab a seat...it's my turn to take a shot at this

First off, let me say that I am one of those who belongs with the mind set that believes that A SLAVE does give up his/her rights to his/her Master ( this does not mean that he/she becomes a mindless robot, but that is another discussion ). That being said...

A scenario:
We have two ADULTS who have entered into a relationship with each other willingly. The slave is not bi, or bi-curious, and his/her Master knows this, and accepts it, although he/she has made it plain...BEFORE THEY ENTERED INTO THE RELATIONSHIP...that there may come a time when the slave may be required to be with another of the same sex. Although the slave does NOT WANT this, he/she accepts it....Some time down the road, Master tells the slave that he/she is considering bringing another into the relationship and is interested in the thoughts that the slave has on this. After much thought, the slave openly and honestly tells his/her Master that it is not something that he/she wants...and gives very good reasons as to why. Master listens carefully to what is being said, thinks about it for several days or weeks...maybe they even have discussions on this for several months...Master decides though that he/she is bringing in another, and explains to the slave why he/she thinks that it would be something that would be beneficial to the relationship...on both sides. The discussion is over. Another will be brought into the relationship.

Now, was the thoughts, ideas, and opinion of the slave ignored? I don't think so. Everything was discussed, weighed, and discussed again. A decision was made with both sides giving their own opinion on the subject at hand...

Now granted, all relationships are different, and the people in them have different goals. But, if I read your question correctly...this may help to explain a bit more.

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 26

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:01:22 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

Doms/Dommes... how can you expect your sub/slave to communicate their feelings, thoughts, ideas, if you see yourselfs within your right to totaly ignore them when they try?

what is Ignoring? Is it because a person chooses not to listen to you at that particular moment for (whatever reasaon)....

Just because the Dom/Domme has the expectation of the sub/slave to communicate their feelings and thoughts, does that also mean that sub/slave dictates the when and how these thoughts and feelings will be to be communicated. Does that mean that the thoughts and feelings of the sub/slave must be appreciated and understood by the Dom/Domme and the sub/slave gets to communicate until they feel appreciated and understood and if the Dominant chooses to end the communication all they are doing is ignoring the sub/slave.

mmmmm yes... ignoring please tell me what is ignoring.... with a clear understanding what it means maybe we can understand what is the difference between a person that is crying wolf and using the ignoring card as a means to manipulate the Dom/Domme as to compared to an actual ignoring that is harmful and detrimental to the sub/slave and relationship.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 27

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:10:09 PM

MrDiscipline44

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Joined: 1/5/2005
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quote:

Master... I do not feel I can be involved in a poly relationship.... Master really needs to listen.. and act on this.. to ignore this statement.. and go ahead without taking into account his sub/slave has mixed feelings... (granted in the end.. he has to decide.. if losing the sub/slave he has now.. is worth it or not) Especially when upon entering said relationship.. it was agreed on no polly. And now Master has changed his mind.

To me truesub, it about whether some just says they're a slave to a Master and someone that is enslaved to a Master.
With your statement, truesub, I see only three options for the Master.
1) He sticks with the agreement of no poly.
2) He changes his mind, there by changing their agreement to which give the slave the option the leave.
3) He releases the slave he has now and proceeds to have a new relationship with a slave open to poly.

If the Master changes his mind about poly with someone that just says they're a slave, the slave has no obligation to stay with him. He changed the basis of their verbal agreement, making it null and void. The slave may walk if she wants or stay. But someone who is enslaved heart, mind and body will not choose to walk away. The man may lie, cheat and/or steal but they won't even think of stepping out that door. In that, they are bound by their Master by something more then just words. It's the same as those that will do anything for the person they're in love with. I can do no better than to explain it like that, truesub. But at least I tried.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 28

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:20:33 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
since she is your free companion, wife, love, significant other.... not poly... what if she had said "you go to another, i go"... would your response have been different would you have weighed those consequences? just my own curiosity...

I had wieghed those consequences long before I found my slave. Had my mate said what you said, angelic, I would've walked away from her. As much as it might have hurt me to do so, staying would've hurt me more. In staying, I would've denied two things in myself:
1) The fact that I'm poly and will need to surround myself with those that I love.
2) That I'm the Dominant in any and all of my personal relationships as well as my home.
In my home, angelic, mine is the final word on any given subject. I have yet to meet anyone that is going into my home and tell me otherwise.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 29

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:23:57 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

To me truesub, it about whether some just says they're a slave to a Master and someone that is enslaved to a Master.
With your statement, truesub, I see only three options for the Master.
1) He sticks with the agreement of no poly.
2) He changes his mind, there by changing their agreement to which give the slave the option the leave.
3) He releases the slave he has now and proceeds to have a new relationship with a slave open to poly.

If the Master changes his mind about poly with someone that just says they're a slave, the slave has no obligation to stay with him. He changed the basis of their verbal agreement, making it null and void. The slave may walk if she wants or stay. But someone who is enslaved heart, mind and body will not choose to walk away. The man may lie, cheat and/or steal but they won't even think of stepping out that door. In that, they are bound by their Master by something more then just words. It's the same as those that will do anything for the person they're in love with. I can do no better than to explain it like that, truesub. But at least I tried.

I've agreed with pretty much everything you've said on this thread. The one thing I did want to raise is that at least for me I have thought about walking out the door (i.e. asking for release). I call it my slave escape plans. I think to some degree its a coping mechanism for me because I know its not going to lead to anything, but it helps me work through any sorts of problems I'm having because I get to feel like I had the option and considered it and then decided to stay (when in fact in my clear moments I know that I wasn't ever going to leave).

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but just my thoughts on the concept of thinking about leaving.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 30

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:36:06 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I believe a wise Master will gather all facts and information they can, including the feelings and thoughts of their slave, then make the decisions he believes to be for the best for their relationship. Sometimes, Himself will make decisions based on facts which I do not have, but it's not my place to do anything other than share my thoughts and feelings with him as he requires. I trusted him enough to want his collar and I know him well enough after all this time to do everything I can to keep it. I don't know whether he ignores my thoughts and feelings or not because I don't question the decisions which he makes. He decrees I share myself with him so that's what I do. I know sometimes I make suggestions and low and behold, they come to fruition and sometimes they don't. That's always up to him.

Celeste

Perfectly said, but then i think what you are talking about is not ignoring someone, it is managing someone for the best outcome. Ignoring is paying no regard to. You trust that he weighs your thoughts and feelings into the way he manages you, and therefore even if they are not addressed or referred to, you still do not feel they were ignored. You trust they were taken into account and he chose to do otherwise....right?

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 31

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:39:02 PM

angelic

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Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

thank you for responding... and i KNOW this is off topic a bit; however....

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
since she is your free companion, wife, love, significant other.... not poly... what if she had said "you go to another, i go"... would your response have been different would you have weighed those consequences? just my own curiosity...

I had wieghed those consequences long before I found my slave. Had my mate said what you said, angelic, I would've walked away from her. As much as it might have hurt me to do so, staying would've hurt me more. In staying, I would've denied two things in myself:
1) The fact that I'm poly and will need to surround myself with those that I love.
2) That I'm the Dominant in any and all of my personal relationships as well as my home.
In my home, angelic, mine is the final word on any given subject. I have yet to meet anyone that is going into my home and tell me otherwise.

had she said "hey cool... i'm getting another man" too!!! ?

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 32

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:47:55 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

To me truesub, it about whether some just says they're a slave to a Master and someone that is enslaved to a Master.
With your statement, truesub, I see only three options for the Master.
1) He sticks with the agreement of no poly.
2) He changes his mind, there by changing their agreement to which give the slave the option the leave.
3) He releases the slave he has now and proceeds to have a new relationship with a slave open to poly.

There is a fourth option, i believe, of working with the slave until she/he is ready for such a situation, as my Master did with me. Sometimes it is simply (or not so simply) a matter of time, effort, communication, and relationship building.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 33

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 6:52:33 PM

CERCKL

Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
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quote:

If I was using this site as a dating service, I would see the so called RED FLAGS everyones talking about right here on the forum.. forget the profiles. It makes trying to seek information for some newbies even more confused. And those actually seeking... seek elsewhere.

How can a submisive/slave... have trust and faith... with a flip flop Dom? How can a sub/slave believe in communication... if it's going to be ignored? How can a sub/slave express feelings, if it's going to be ignored??

Doms/Dommes... how can you expect your sub/slave to communicate their feelings, thoughts, ideas, if you see yourselfs within your right to totaly ignore them when they try?

Where does the communication actually come in at? Where does the sharing actually come in at? For that matter, where does the caring for what you own actually come into all this?

I think the red flags SHOULD be up for anyone here...certain limitations to email/boards but on the other hand the ability to communicate with people from all over. Pros/Cons...
As for faith in a 'flip flop' Dom...I believe part of the process for both Dom and submissive is self-awareness; whatever role you take in whatever 'arena', there will be times that your reaction will not be it's best; the aspect of Dom, is taking a look at everything and deciding from that perspective, not being reactive...your question seems more like a 'relationship' type D/s situation and in either situation both parties need to take responsibilty for fulfilling their roles...
As for 'ignoring' feelings, thoughts, etc...again that would be based on the situation and people, like any other relationship; My vanilla relationship which has ended after 12 years. one of the complaints was not 'acting' on her complaints...what she stated had been heard and acted upon when appropriate, but I didn't announce myself everytime I acted as she requested...another was that she felt as a 'second-class' individual next to Me...this was because she felt that intellectually, spiritually I brought more to her than she did to me; I enjoyed watching her learn and grow...she came to resent the fact that I was the force behind a lot of her becoming who she is now...that ties into your statement regarding communication; different expectations, differring perspectives...never clearly stated...
In getting to know people online and in person; I have a label which is just a generalization but it is a starting point and there is a lot more information seeking than 'out there'; not only interests, blah, blah blah...but expectations, parameters, etc...different sub/slaves are seeking differing experiences just as different Dom/Dommes are seeking different things.
Myself, I welcome questions, seeking, trying to understand why one feels as they do; but there are times instead of her being reactive, I would expect her to be contemplative and understand why? Then speak with Me. I have the habit of not saying anything if everything is acceptable and others need the positive feedback where I tend to only give praise when something is beyond what is expected...it's primarily that you are supposed to know how I feel since I am in this situation (another problem in my ending vanilla...).
As for my reacting to that communication, that would be an ongoing process.
Sort of a long response which could just focus on both individuals in a D/s situation/relationship needs to be responsible in My view; My responsibility is to get to know her intimately enough that there is the trust that I will protect her, cherish her, help her grow and become more aware of herself...her responsibility is to give of herself completely, to obey...together our responsibility is to set out clearly how we are going to achieve that and understand this is a dynamic...
Now looking for coffee, too much typing...
C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 34

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 7:01:53 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic
had she said "hey cool... i'm getting another man" too!!! ?

Well, that depends on what the other man was going to be, dominant or submissive? Would he be living in my house as well? If he was dominant and wanting to live in my house, then I would say no. I tire of power plays easily and hell, I'm just spoiled enough to want to keep my toys to myself. Submissive I could see but not dominant. Dominant and living in his own place? I could allow this but the relationship with me would have to be primary. Then there's the fact that she would have two Masters (so to speak). Could she handle it? I also don't think a switch would work either. The minute he wants to power play me, his ass is in the street. It's just in my nature to dominant everything in my house. Even the damn cat wants my attention.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 35

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 7:08:28 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

There is a fourth option, i believe, of working with the slave until she/he is ready for such a situation, as my Master did with me. Sometimes it is simply (or not so simply) a matter of time, effort, communication, and relationship building.

True, girlie. That is a fourth option. I just had the impression that the sub/slave in the scenerio wasn't open to that option.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 36

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 8:23:35 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

True, girlie. That is a fourth option. I just had the impression that the sub/slave in the scenerio wasn't open to that option.

i think in many cases, a devoted and loving sub/slave would prefer that option. Sometimes it is fear that causes us to want to run, and in those cases, the alleviation of that fear not only can resolve the problem but strengthen the bond. But you are correct - if the sub/slave is not open to working it out, then you basically are down to two options. In that case, i can see one being the primary option over the other.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 37

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 8:41:23 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Perfectly said, but then i think what you are talking about is not ignoring someone, it is managing someone for the best outcome. Ignoring is paying no regard to. You trust that he weighs your thoughts and feelings into the way he manages you, and therefore even if they are not addressed or referred to, you still do not feel they were ignored. You trust they were taken into account and he chose to do otherwise....right?

I believe, truly, there are only three reasons that Himself would ever ignore my thoughts and feelings.

When he has to, when he needs to and when he wants to.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 38

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 10:24:27 PM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
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OK I can get the understanding that to each their own. If a slave or submissive wants to stay in a relationship that has no feelings. So be it. If a submissive/slave wants to stay in a relationship where anything and everything about her means nothing to the owner.. so be it. I can grasp this and not going against ones beliefs or way of life.

What I do not buy is... when two ADULTS enter into a relationship... and everything is laid out on the line. Everyone knows the limits ... likes.. dislikes... agreements are made! And then the Dom does the flip.. they fall back on to the... I've decided I would like to.... (Fill in the blank)... let's talk about it.... communicate... relate... express ourselves to each other... No matter if 1 day, 1 week, 1 month.. and many talks.. he says.. I'm going to do it anyways!... All the time, energy and love a sub/slave put in that relationship.. the trust, the honesty, shot down.. that damn fast. Because the Dom chose to ignore the pleas, and feelings of the one he already claimed as his own.. the one he promised to take care.. keep safe... and secure. One that asked a slave/sub to put their life in his hand and guide them. To trust them not to hurt them.... just slammed the door in their face.

Now before anyone jumps in with the.. when he decided to do (fill in the blank) because it's his way of guiding, helping one grow... ppppffftttttt..... a verbal contract was broken. It was agreed upon... and now just because you say so... Uhhhh NO. When someone enters into a relationship and says.. I don't do k-9's... by God that's what they mean. Just because the Dom decides to help his sub/slave's growth... Come on here!

So yes... when ones being ignored.... (Knight... as in a Dom asking them to communicate... and if he's asking.. he damn straight should be listening that's what communication is about... LISTENING) He ignores them completely... where has the trust gone to? What's the sense in communicating... if what you communicate.. UPON REQUEST... is ignored?

The bottom line is... why does a Dom.. once again... knowing they're going to blow off anything you have to say.... ask you to communicate it in the first place??????????????????

Because they pulled you into the relationship with the .... how was put before... Romantic notions of being open, honest, communicating to each other. And this is what I've seen from a few of the Dom on the forum.. which brought this thought out to begin with. They talk in one thread about all the honesty.. communication.. etc... but in the next thread.. they're stating.. STFU ... I will do it my way and sense I own you.. tuff titty said the kitty when the milk ran dry!

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 39

RE: GRRRRRR Flip Flops - 3/8/2006 10:34:02 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

i think i am looking at this differently than you are. Master has final word, and always does what he feels is in our best interest, even if it is something i might not like, and might even plead against. Ultimately, i have to trust his final word.

But, i don't see that as a realtionship which has no feelings. i don't see it that i mean nothing to him either, in fact, based on the journey we have had, i know very much that he cares for me.

i also know that circumstances in life change. There are ebbs and flows and situations which were not planned for. At times he may have to change the course, and i must trust that it is for the greater good. If i don't then we don't have much of anything.

This is not to say i wouldn't have the opportunity to express my feelings - all of them. They would be discussed. But if the outcome ends up differently than i had hoped for, i have to trust in his view of the bigger picture. When i begged him to own me, it was to run me as he sees fit - not when he sees fit except when i don't like it.

This is not to say there aren't selfish and bad people out there. But i didn't ask one of those people to own me.

Does that help?

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 40

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