RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it

RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (Full Version)

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MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:42:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA they do NOT, however, expect to be subject someone else's kink... Please define "kink" so we can ascertain what characteristics specific to this term make it unsuitable for casual discourse. Referring to each other as Master and slave to third parties not a part of your power dynamic... quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA and referring to one and other as "Master" and "slave" to others outside a power dynamic is doing so without their CONSENT to be included. Like every time someone tells a dirty joke at a bar. Except the purpose of the dirty joke is specifically to shock, not any sort of honest expression of a relationship. You are aware that this behavior is NOT ALLOWED in the workplace, right? Guess why... IT'S INAPPROPRIATE, because not everyone wants to hear your "dirty joke". quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Play as many games as you like, but nobody in this dynamic has the right to shove this off anyone who hasn't consented, as many would find it offensive in the extreme. ...a woman who spilled a restaurant's obviously hot coffee on herself and felt entitled to not have to suffer the grievance of natural, logical consequences of living. While I find the basis for this type of lawsuit silly (and for the record, it's not that said person didn't expect they may spill hot coffee on themselves, they complained of the heat/degree level of said coffee), it is based on EXPECTATION.... expectation not be be severely burned; just as one would have the EXPECTATION not be included in another's kink. Rude.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:43:13 PM)
Also I think a line is being blurred between "involving others in what you do" and "making others aware that you do something." Using the word Master to describe your Master isn't involving someone else in kink, it's simply making them aware that you are kinky. And honestly, I would say the clerk has every right to respond "Master? What, are you some sort of pervert?" because that's what this is about - freedom of expression. Not having to stifle your own view, just to make someone else feel better about themselves. And then Orion'd have the right to complain, and the manager'd have the right to fire the clerk/give him a bonus (depending on the shop) and well...the world goes on.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:46:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think what you're missing is that for someone like Orion, being called Master isn't his kink. I think YOU ARE MISSING that for 'nilla folk... IT IS KINK, and quite offensive, irrespective of what this person thinks!!! Some may find smacking their kid pefectly appropriate, for example, while others may take GREAT OFFENSE to this. This, it doesn't matter what you or I find acceptable, it's the audience one has to take into consideration. Another example... for some, use of the word NIGGER is pefectly fine among themselves; so should they act the same publicly, irrespective of others around them... should we then applaud them for "daring to live unapologetically" too??? No, as I guarantee you many would find that just as disgusting and insulting as a woman referring to a man as her "Master".

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:46:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I don't see why you feel that outright lying would be the moral high ground. It seems the suggestion is that, in a social setting, 'proper etiquette' dictates that one must never divulge more information about anything unless it is asked. Now that, I understand. Heh, last night I watched The Age of Innocence (brilliant movie BTW) and the basic dilemma was "do I follow my instincts and heart to be a pariah, or do I stifle that part of myself to live an easy and secure life?" No doubt if someone's slave comes to their office job and says "hi Master" it's going to make life harder. But I think it's up to that person what path they want to follow...and really I think we should be thanking them for living unapologetically so that those of us whose first instinct is to apologize might not have to in the future.

NihilusZero -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:46:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HimNbabygirl So where is it crossing the line and forcing the kink? i know, this was asked earlier, but i'm trying to get the train back on track. That's actually a really interesting question. If no one were ever likely to be offended by the instance of "forcing", then there is no issue. What percentage of 'offense' probability makes an instance of this something worth censoring if we even were to think about giving the "imposition" notion any merit? Which brings me back to anthropology because different answers to this question will appear in different demographics and social groups. A black joke that is horrifically poor in taste could go over without a peep amongst a group of racist retro pro-confederates. Does that means such a joke is universally not an imposition or do we need to have only instances that are so neutral, so politically correct, so delicate that they cannot ever be logically presumed to cause offense?

NihilusZero -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:49:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella ...and really I think we should be thanking them for living unapologetically so that those of us whose first instinct is to apologize might not have to in the future. It would be quite interesting to see where civilization would be if we erased all instances of people daring to live unapologetically, particularly when it did no harm to anyone.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:52:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think what you're missing is that for someone like Orion, being called Master isn't his kink. I think YOU ARE MISSING that for 'nilla folk... IT IS KINK, and quite offensive, irrespective of what this person thinks!!! Offensive to whom? First of all, there's a big difference between not doing something yourself, and being offended by it. I'm not gay. But I'm not in any way offended by a gay person saying "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" so why do you assume anyone will take offense to it. Maybe a moment of discomfort, but you're arguing etiquette here - so the proper etiquette is smile, nod, and say "oh, how nice." And secondly, what does being offended matter? Go to the right state and you'll find someone offended by a gay man. Go to the right town in that state and you'll find someone offended by a white woman with a black husband. Go to the right house in that state and you'll find a woman offended that you said "yes" instead of "yes Ma'am." I fail to see how any of them are actually harmed in any way by being offended. Unless you can point out how someone is actually harmed by being offended, your argument boils down to "this person's feelings are more important than that person's feelings."

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:53:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella ...and really I think we should be thanking them for living unapologetically so that those of us whose first instinct is to apologize might not have to in the future. It would be quite interesting to see where civilization would be if we erased all instances of people daring to live unapologetically, particularly when it did no harm to anyone. Indeed.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:56:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think what you're missing is that for someone like Orion, being called Master isn't his kink. I think YOU ARE MISSING that for 'nilla folk... IT IS KINK, and quite offensive, irrespective of what this person thinks!!! Offensive to whom? Those who do not engage in a power dynamic. I mean, you know... all those 'nilla women, for example, that think this dynamic sets the women's liberation movement back centuries.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 9:58:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm not gay. But I'm not in any way offended by a gay person saying "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" so *why do you assume anyone will take offense* to it**. Go visit the "Bible Belt" sometime. You're projecting your values on the world. Can't do that.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:00:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think what you're missing is that for someone like Orion, being called Master isn't his kink. I think YOU ARE MISSING that for 'nilla folk... IT IS KINK, and quite offensive, irrespective of what this person thinks!!! Offensive to whom? Those who do not engage in a power dynamic. I mean, you know... all those 'nilla women, for example, that think this dynamic sets the women's liberation movement back centuries. What makes the vanilla woman's feelings more important than the kinky woman's feelings?

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:03:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm not gay. But I'm not in any way offended by a gay person saying "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" so *why do you assume anyone will take offense* to it**. Go visit the "Bible Belt" sometime. You're projecting your values on the world. Can't do that. So, theoretically, if a white woman and her black husband go to a small town in Rednecklandia, they shouldn't hold hands or call each other "honey" or tell the waiter "my husband will be joining me shortly" because they don't want to offend the sensibilities of the locals?

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:04:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think what you're missing is that for someone like Orion, being called Master isn't his kink. I think YOU ARE MISSING that for 'nilla folk... IT IS KINK, and quite offensive, irrespective of what this person thinks!!! Offensive to whom? Those who do not engage in a power dynamic. I mean, you know... all those 'nilla women, for example, that think this dynamic sets the women's liberation movement back centuries. What makes the vanilla woman's feelings more important than the kinky woman's feelings? Nothing... it's simply a matter of one's audience. If in the streets of San Francisco or West Hollywood, for example, I doubt anyone would bat an eye. In other parts of the country, it'd be viewed as offensive.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:06:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think what you're missing is that for someone like Orion, being called Master isn't his kink. I think YOU ARE MISSING that for 'nilla folk... IT IS KINK, and quite offensive, irrespective of what this person thinks!!! Offensive to whom? Those who do not engage in a power dynamic. I mean, you know... all those 'nilla women, for example, that think this dynamic sets the women's liberation movement back centuries. What makes the vanilla woman's feelings more important than the kinky woman's feelings? Nothing... it's simply a matter of one's audience. If in the streets of San Francisco or West Hollywood, for example, I doubt anyone would bat an eye. In other parts of the country, it'd be viewed as offensive. Right, but you're not saying "You should be aware that using the word Master in public might offend some people" and then letting people make the decision of whether they consider a stranger's feelings more important than their own. You're saying "You should not do this because someone will be offended" - and since you haven't answered my question regarding whether or not someone can actually be harmed by being offended, the only reason for you to tell someone to stifle their own feelings in favor of someone else's feelings is that you believe that the second person's feelings are more important. I mean, don't you think it would kind of hurt a person's feelings to say "You have to hide your relationship from the world because the world is offended by you"?

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:07:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm not gay. But I'm not in any way offended by a gay person saying "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" so *why do you assume anyone will take offense* to it**. Go visit the "Bible Belt" sometime. You're projecting your values on the world. Can't do that. So, theoretically, if a white woman and her black husband go to a small town in Rednecklandia, they shouldn't hold hands or call each other "honey" or tell the waiter "my husband will be joining me shortly" because they don't want to offend the sensibilities of the locals? Your "theory" assumes most in "Rednecklandia" would be offended by this. I feel some, may... but not most. Remember... it took a LOT of WHITE FOLK to elect our current President, so MOST are not racist pricks.

HimNbabygirl -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm not gay. But I'm not in any way offended by a gay person saying "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" so *why do you assume anyone will take offense* to it**. Go visit the "Bible Belt" sometime. You're projecting your values on the world. Can't do that. i live in West Virginia and in 1 of the few larger cities we have. This is a problem we have here, even in a college town where we get all walks of life. Part of what i find sad is the teens at the high school think it's "cool" to claim that they are bi-sexual without having any true understanding of it because it is 1 of things never talked about in our area. We have a gay bar, but it is hidden and is not allowed to promote the fact that it is a gay bar. The general populous around here is close minded and seems to have the mindset that if we don't talk about it it will go away. That does not stop me from asking my gay and lesbian friends how their partner (or in some cases partner of the week) is doing when we are out in public. At times i really don't care who i offend, although i do not go out of my way to offend someone. i try to be politically correct but to be honest it gets tiring and confusing when saying, for example, that is a lovely large gray pet you have in your living room. it's so much easier, at least around friends, to say wow your elephant is freakin awesome! His baby girl

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:11:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Right, but you're not saying "You should be aware that using the word Master in public might offend some people" and then letting people make the decision of whether they consider a stranger's feelings more important than their own. If in an OBVIOUS kink-friendly environment... then sure. Otherwise, I feel it's best to keep one's PERSONAL LIFE... you know... PERSONAL. quote: ...since you haven't answered my question regarding whether or not someone can actually be... Offended... I did anwer your question... even gave examples.

GYPSYMAMBO -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:12:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Where do you personally draw the line between "imposing your kink on unwilling bystanders" and simply "refusing to live a closeted life"? I draw the line RIGHT THERE,,,I will not IMPOSE..inflict...thrust my lifestyle on the UNWILLING..reluctant..hesitant or unknowing..,,, bystander and I also do not LIVE a closeted life. Refusing to live a closeted life DOES Not mean I yank my slave by the nuts in a movie thaetre...spank his ass at the burget joint..or wear my stilletos and SS cap to dinner with new neigbours. IT means I am confident with who I am..I talk to who I please about it on a need to know basis and I introduce some of the aspects if I see fit. Flashing someone in a park needs a third person to work; ILLEGAL You can do what you want in your own home - in public you have to follow public laws and on other people's property you have to follow their rules. YES we/some of us have to live in a society,work..go to the beach..pay bills..go for dinner and within the parameters and laws set ...WITHIN reason and for the highest good. Just as I would not like my neigbour to come and shit on my living room floor I ceertainly would not suddenly be stringing up my boy in the backyard where no one knows what we are about. We rely on integrity and honor in daily lives in order to "get along" PArt of that is having the RESPECT not to shove our preferences in life in other's faces who have not asked or care not to know.. Thoughts?

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:15:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Your "theory" assumes most in "Rednecklandia" would be offended by this. I feel some, may... but not most. Remember... it took a LOT of WHITE FOLK to elect our current President, so MOST are not racist pricks. Just like your theory assumes most in non-metropolitan areas would be offended by the word Master.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:15:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HimNbabygirl quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I'm not gay. But I'm not in any way offended by a gay person saying "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" so *why do you assume anyone will take offense* to it**. Go visit the "Bible Belt" sometime. You're projecting your values on the world. Can't do that. i live in West Virginia and in 1 of the few larger cities we have. This is a problem we have here, even in a college town where we get all walks of life. Part of what i find sad is the teens at the high school think it's "cool" to claim that they are bi-sexual without having any true understanding of it because it is 1 of things never talked about in our area. We have a gay bar, but it is hidden and is not allowed to promote the fact that it is a gay bar. The general populous around here is close minded and seems to have the mindset that if we don't talk about it it will go away. That does not stop me from asking my gay and lesbian friends how their partner (or in some cases partner of the week) is doing when we are out in public. At times i really don't care who i offend, although i do not go out of my way to offend someone. i try to be politically correct but to be honest it gets tiring and confusing when saying, for example, that is a lovely large gray pet you have in your living room. it's so much easier, at least around friends, to say wow your elephant is freakin awesome! His baby girl Honestly, I think many have become more tolerant (or at the very least somewhat accustomed) to the "partner" thing. Obviously not everywhere, but certainly more so than 20 or 30 years ago.

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