RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it

RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (Full Version)

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MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:16:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Your "theory" assumes most in "Rednecklandia" would be offended by this. I feel some, may... but not most. Remember... it took a LOT of WHITE FOLK to elect our current President, so MOST are not racist pricks. Just like your theory assumes most in non-metropolitan areas would be offended by the word Master. Go test your "theory" then and report back. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just think you'll find most would be offended.

Silence8 -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:18:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Every time you talk to someone you've never met before you are including them in a dynamic. By virtue of going out in public, people EXPECT to have to "talk" to others... they do NOT, however, expect to be subject someone else's kink... and referring to one and other as "Master" and "slave" to others outside a power dynamic is doing so without their CONSENT to be included. Play as many games as you like, but nobody in this dynamic has the right to shove this off anyone who hasn't consented, as many would find it offensive in the extreme. In public, I often feel as if I'm being subjected to other people's normality. The sick thing about normality is that it over-represents itself, and people seem more normal than they actually are. Looking at me, you'd think I'm completely normal, but I'm not... or am I?... again, the overarching lie that is 'being seen' prevents me from being able truly to interact with others, and even to gauge the truth. So, for every person you offend, it's quite possible two others are being liberated. That's part of what the 60s were all about. Tolerance is often just crypto-fascism, to return to an earlier point I've made on this board. flicking you off quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero The flaw in this nonsensical thinking stems from the illogical mentality that the perceiver gets to automatically trump the doer or sayer when it comes to matter of what is and isn't "offensive". Action versus inaction, civility favors inaction. In other ways, perception is passive in an incredibly fake way. We choose what we want to see, notice what we want to notice. This discussion reminds me of a 'Little Britain' segment, the one where the very proper lady is tasting cookies at a baking competition. When she learns that the cookies were made by ethnic minorities, she projectile vomits all over the other judge. After all, she couldn't help it. She was simply reacting.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Right, but you're not saying "You should be aware that using the word Master in public might offend some people" and then letting people make the decision of whether they consider a stranger's feelings more important than their own. If in an OBVIOUS kink-friendly environment... then sure. Otherwise, I feel it's best to keep one's PERSONAL LIFE... you know... PERSONAL. quote: ...since you haven't answered my question regarding whether or not someone can actually be... Offended... I did anwer your question... even gave examples. No, you didn't answer my question, you edited my question. My question is how can someone be harmed by being offended. I scrolled through and I don't see any examples of how being offended by something actually harms a person. You have every right to think people shouldn't use the word Master in public. You have every right to be offended by it if you want. You also have every right to say that a M/s relationship is a kink rather than a relationship dynamic, and a lot of people on this board have the right to get offended by it. So now that you know you've offended quite a few people, are you going to take your own advice and stop calling a M/s dynamic a kink? Or are you going to continue to offend people because you don't believe you should stifle your opinions just because someone else doesn't like it?

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:22:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Your "theory" assumes most in "Rednecklandia" would be offended by this. I feel some, may... but not most. Remember... it took a LOT of WHITE FOLK to elect our current President, so MOST are not racist pricks. Just like your theory assumes most in non-metropolitan areas would be offended by the word Master. Go test your "theory" then and report back. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just think you'll find most would be offended. I'm not going to test your theory for you. And more importantly I don't care whether 90% of people or 20% of people were offended, because it's utterly irrelevant to my position.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:25:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Another example... for some, use of the word NIGGER is pefectly fine among themselves; so should they act the same publicly, irrespective of others around them... should we then applaud them for "daring to live unapologetically" too??? No, as I guarantee you many would find that just as disgusting and insulting as a woman referring to a man as her "Master". You're really missing what I'm saying here. If Guy wants to say nigger, it's his right. If I want to tell Guy I'm offended by that, it's my right. It's still up to Guy whether he gives a shit if I'm offended or not.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:27:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 So, for every person you offend, it's quite possible two others are being liberated. It's also quite possible, for every person you offend, ten more have been offended. quote: ...the 60s were all about. Tolerance is often just crypto-fascism... How is tolerance "fascism"??? As I see it, being "tolerant" works both ways... if you want others to accept your views/values, then be tolerant of their views/values as well. Yes/No???

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:31:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Another example... for some, use of the word NIGGER is pefectly fine among themselves; so should they act the same publicly, irrespective of others around them... should we then applaud them for "daring to live unapologetically" too??? No, as I guarantee you many would find that just as disgusting and insulting as a woman referring to a man as her "Master". You're really missing what I'm saying here. If Guy wants to say nigger, it's his right. If I want to tell Guy I'm offended by that, it's my right. It's still up to Guy whether he gives a shit if I'm offended or not. Right... and I would find that "Guy" and his "nigger-spouting" offensive as hell, and would prefer he not subject me to his racist crap; and I certainly wouldn't applaud his "unapologetic" attitude as something to be praised.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:37:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Your "theory" assumes most in "Rednecklandia" would be offended by this. I feel some, may... but not most. Remember... it took a LOT of WHITE FOLK to elect our current President, so MOST are not racist pricks. Just like your theory assumes most in non-metropolitan areas would be offended by the word Master. Go test your "theory" then and report back. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just think you'll find most would be offended. I'm not going to test your theory for you. And more importantly I don't care whether 90% of people or 20% of people were offended, because it's utterly irrelevant to my position. It's your position that referring to each other as "Master" and "slave" to third, uninvolved parties, and should be applauded for their "unapologetic" behavior (at least that's what you'd stated) and that those in non-metropolitan areas would not likely be offended by this behavior. As such, I suggested you give it a go. I don't need to "test" my theory... I already know that one's personal life should remain PERSONAL to those outside my relationship; hence the reason it's referred to as a "personal life". I feel it crass to behave otherwise.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:37:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Another example... for some, use of the word NIGGER is pefectly fine among themselves; so should they act the same publicly, irrespective of others around them... should we then applaud them for "daring to live unapologetically" too??? No, as I guarantee you many would find that just as disgusting and insulting as a woman referring to a man as her "Master". You're really missing what I'm saying here. If Guy wants to say nigger, it's his right. If I want to tell Guy I'm offended by that, it's my right. It's still up to Guy whether he gives a shit if I'm offended or not. Right... and I would find that "Guy" and his "nigger-spouting" offensive as hell, and would prefer he not subject me to his racist crap; and I certainly wouldn't applaud his "unapologetic" attitude as something to be praised. Actually my fiance and I were discussing Prince Philip last night (side note: if a girl were discussing something with her Master, how would you expect her to begin this same sentence telling about it?) and I read him this list and another one similar to it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1848553.stm And the first thing I said was "Wow, I love this guy. He says what's on his mind no matter what." I think most of the quotes on that list were racist and untrue. But my first thought was a grudging respect for someone who can be that unapologetically un-PC. So yeah, it's possible to hate what a person says while still having a grudging respect for them that they have the balls to say it.

AnimusRex -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:41:05 PM)
To follow up on Elisabella's post- We live in communities because we want to belong; in order to belong we accept social norms. Having a hierarchical spousal relationship is within the norms of our culture; Leading someone on a leash is not. Being called "Master" is a wobbly one, but not anything more outre' than gay couples kissing. When our lives have aspects that don't fit the norm, we are forced to choose how much to reveal, and how far from the group we want to stray. On one hand, no ones life really fits the norm- nearly everyone has something that isn't to the liking or expectations of the group. Yet we all secretly crave the approval of our private inner selves that the group can give. So we selectively conceal and reveal, deciding what is needed to be exposed, versus what is kept private. But the more we disclose, the more we risk ostracism- so we balance our desire to have our private selves acknowledged and approved, versus the disapproval that we are certain to get from some. (just noticed the comments about the "right" to use an ethnic slur) Part of the difficulty is in speaking of social interactions in terms or "rights" instead of responsibility and obligation; rights are fixed and immutable things, that override personal preferences. They don't lend themselves to subtlety or nuance, and all social interactions are filled with subtlety and nuance. We all have the "right" to be outside the social norms; but then again, no one has the "right" to be accepted at all. Choosing to join society gives us obligations to fit the norm, and responsibility to accept those within it.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:41:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Another example... for some, use of the word NIGGER is pefectly fine among themselves; so should they act the same publicly, irrespective of others around them... should we then applaud them for "daring to live unapologetically" too??? No, as I guarantee you many would find that just as disgusting and insulting as a woman referring to a man as her "Master". You're really missing what I'm saying here. If Guy wants to say nigger, it's his right. If I want to tell Guy I'm offended by that, it's my right. It's still up to Guy whether he gives a shit if I'm offended or not. Right... and I would find that "Guy" and his "nigger-spouting" offensive as hell, and would prefer he not subject me to his racist crap; and I certainly wouldn't applaud his "unapologetic" attitude as something to be praised. Actually my fiance and I were discussing Prince Philip last night (side note: if a girl were discussing something with her Master, how would you expect her to begin this same sentence telling about it?) and I read him this list and another one similar to it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1848553.stm And the first thing I said was "Wow, I love this guy. He says what's on his mind no matter what." I think most of the quotes on that list were racist and untrue. But my first thought was a grudging respect for someone who can be that unapologetically un-PC. So yeah, it's possible to hate what a person says while still having a grudging respect for them that they have the balls to say it. To each his/her own... I don't personally find racism "ballsy" at all; just ignorant. But again... to each his/her own.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:45:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA It's your position that if one finds referring to each other as "Master" and "slave" to third, uninvolved parties, that said "unapologetic" behavior should be praised (at least that's what you'd stated) and that those in non-metropolitan areas would not likely be offended by this behavior. As such, I suggested you give it a go. I don't need to "test" my theory... I already know that one's personal life should remain PERSONAL to those outside my relationship; hence the reason it's referred to as a "personal life". I feel it crass to behave otherwise. I didn't say those in non-metropolitan areas wouldn't likely be offended, I just questioned why you automatically assumed they would. And no, you don't believe that one's personal life should remain personal to those outside the relationship because you said you would have no problem with me using the phrase 'my fiance' - by saying it I'm displaying my engagement in front of people who aren't engaged to me. Anyway I have to go get stuff to make for dinner, I'll just ask you this if you want to answer it - if one person feels offended at hearing the word Master, and another person feels offended at being expected to police their words so that they don't accidentally expose that they're in a relationship, whose offendedness takes precedence? And why?

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:48:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex To follow up on Elisabella's post- We live in communities because we want to belong; in order to belong we accept social norms. Having a hierarchical spousal relationship is within the norms of our culture; Leading someone on a leash is not. Being called "Master" is a wobbly one, but not anything more outre' than gay couples kissing. When our lives have aspects that don't fit the norm, we are forced to choose how much to reveal, and how far from the group we want to stray. On one hand, no ones life really fits the norm- nearly everyone has something that isn't to the liking or expectations of the group. Yet we all secretly crave the approval of our private inner selves that the group can give. So we selectively conceal and reveal, deciding what is needed to be exposed, versus what is kept private. But the more we disclose, the more we risk ostracism- so we balance our desire to have our private selves acknowledged and approved, versus the disapproval that we are certain to get from some. I agree with this completely. Maybe I'm getting hung up on the "shoulds" here - my fiance and I have argued in the past, he wanted me to wear a collar in public and I outright refused. I'm not comfortable with exposing that part of myself. It's just the "You shouldn't" that gets to me.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 10:58:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella And no, you don't believe that one's personal life should remain personal to those outside the relationship because you said you would have no problem with me using the phrase 'my fiance' - by saying it I'm displaying my engagement in front of people who aren't engaged to me. No... what I stated was, "Nothing wrong with that... but even here, you don't need to include the "fiance" part." Additionally, given "fiance" under the guise of a male/female dynamic has been common-speak for what... a billion years, it's really apples and oranges. But still, you'll note, even here I stated you didn't need to include that part. quote: Anyway I have to go get stuff to make for dinner... DINNER??? Oh... LOL... just looked to see you're in Australia. It's like almost 11:00pm here. [:D] quote: I'll just ask you this if you want to answer it - if one person feels offended at hearing the word Master, and another person feels offended at being expected to police their words so that they don't accidentally expose that they're in a relationship, whose offendedness takes precedence? And why? As AnimusRex stated, "We live in communities because we want to belong; in order to belong we accept social norms."

Silence8 -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 11:05:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 So, for every person you offend, it's quite possible two others are being liberated. It's also quite possible, for every person you offend, ten more have been offended. That doesn't make any sense! I do enjoy the paradox, though. quote: quote: ...the 60s were all about. Tolerance is often just crypto-fascism... How is tolerance "fascism"??? As I see it, being "tolerant" works both ways... if you want others to accept your views/values, then be tolerant of their views/values as well. Yes/No??? That argument doesn't fit with your general push not to offend people, but, let's proceed with it. Along these lines, easily offended people should tolerate the fact that they're going to be offended a lot. Offense doesn't cause permanent bodily harm; it won't stain your precious t-shirt. I've always been interested in the curse-word conundrum. Basically, we have these words, we've learned them, and their purpose is to offend. And we tell others, including children, not to use them, so they want to use them all the more. Yet, basically everyone uses them. But when we hear them, we're offended. Am I missing something? That's the whole game. Oh right, the words usually refer to sex or excrement. Why is it that tolerant liberal capitalism can't tolerate private parts and its products? That's what private property is -- private parts. I think, if we really break down the psychology, we're basically offended by ourselves, to the core, by our basic drive to live and procreate at all costs, even if it means selling our days for some dubious purpose called 'work.' That's why the idea of a 'whore' is so deeply offensive, because it strikes so dear to the core of what most everyone does, day in, day out. She rents herself out, just like you! Offended yet? Being naked is being weak, is it not? Vulnerable -- only one thing left to sell ----------

NihilusZero -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 11:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA To each his/her own... I don't personally find racism "ballsy" at all; just ignorant. But again... to each his/her own. Racism is one variety of finding offensive the natural status (and expressions born of that status) of another person. Either you defer to ignorance or you denounce its merit. Or, for those playing the Solipsist's Version of Life The Board Game, you pretend only your calculations of either actually qualify something as ignorant or not.

rockspider -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 11:36:29 PM)
People in this community would like to see respect for deviations. I am a supporter of that. But on the other hand it we must also have the respect for the people for whom it is not acceptable. I live my life in the way i don't particularly hide, but neither do i go around and advertise my kinkiness to the greater public. It is actually my experience that this approach is widely accepted, at least in my soceity. Taking the gay movement as a parallel, i am a firm believer, that those homosexuals, who seems to their need for displaying their gayness in public, to really that extend that others who show no interest in is feeling harassed, is doing tremendous harm to the gay cause.

HimNbabygirl -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/25/2009 11:49:36 PM)
i was raised to be color blind. i never saw any difference from 1 person to the next other than to differentiate between whether a person was male or female (mainly so i could use my manners, some men take offense to being called Ma'am and vice-versa ) When my mother married my step father is when i learned what racism is. i had a friend who lived a block past us and so we would walk home together after school. Almost every day my step father would ask me why i was hanging out with that "nigger". Before him, i had never been exposed to the word so i did not know it was bad. 1 day my friend and i took our time walking home. When i arrived at home, late, my mother was waiting for me. Like any mother would, she asked what took me so long to get home. Not realizing i was about to say something bad, i told my mother i had been walking home and talking to that "nigger". My mother snatched me up by the ear, drug me to the kitchen, washed my mouth out with soap, paddled my ass then sat my sore ass in the kitchen chair while she marched out to get the dictionary which she slammed down on the table in front of me and told me to look up that word. i'll never forget the definition "nigger-(n) a person who is able but unwilling to care for themself or their property" She made me write it out 100 times. lol i digress, but the point i am trying to make, tolerance begins in the home. If we are taught as children to not use a word, or types of words we woln't use them. How we deal with others using the same words is also taught to us as children. i can remember my mother going up to people out in public who were using foul language or racist language and informing them she was out with her children and would they please monitor their language as she did not want us to learn those words or those ideas. Most times the people would turn red, appoligise and walk off. She was forcing her beleifs on others, but to protect and teach her children. This begs the question, was she right or did she step over the line? His baby girl

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:01:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 So, for every person you offend, it's quite possible two others are being liberated. It's also quite possible, for every person you offend, ten more have been offended. That doesn't make any sense! I do enjoy the paradox, though. Sure it does. If we're pondering "possibility", then it can work both ways. quote: quote: quote: ...the 60s were all about. Tolerance is often just crypto-fascism... How is tolerance "fascism"??? As I see it, being "tolerant" works both ways... if you want others to accept your views/values, then be tolerant of their views/values as well. Yes/No??? Offense doesn't cause permanent bodily harm; it won't stain your precious t-shirt. Haven't stated it can "cause permanent bodily harm"... just that certain behaviors/speech can be offensive.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:13:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HimNbabygirl i can remember my mother going up to people out in public who were using foul language or racist language and informing them she was out with her children and would they please monitor their language as she did not want us to learn those words or those ideas. Most times the people would turn red, appoligise and walk off. She was forcing her beleifs on others, but to protect and teach her children. This begs the question, was she right or did she step over the line? As has been stated, it likely depends on the standards of the community if her behavior was "over the line" or not. In most communities, I'd think the standard would be to discourage racist/foul language.

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