RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it

RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:15:52 AM)
I keep reading this particular phrase over and over in this thread. "It's not a need." Sit back for a moment and think about all of the communications that are had that aren't really necessary. You don't really 'need' to smile and say good morning to your neighbors. You don't really 'need' to tell people how your weekend went once you're back at the office on Monday. Quite frankly, if we only stuck to the communications or information that is 'needed' the world would be absent of almost every kind of pleasantries toward each other at all. Truthfully, if clip used My first name in a public setting, I'd wonder what in the world was wrong with him. It's not what he calls Me. When he is in situations where he can't say "Mistress" he feels uncomfortable. It's like he's walking on eggshells because to him, it's the natural order of things. I'm not willing to accept that he should definitely be uncomfortable because he has to live with the possibility that if he talks to Me in the same way out of our front door as he does in it, someone might overhear and it might make them uncomfortable. In all honesty, if it does make them unsettled, perhaps they need to understand that they are no more important on this planet than anyone else. No, it might not be 'needed' but I'm willing to say that all of My life, I've heard other people use terms of endearment/commitment regarding others in their life. They are expressing their connection to someone else. I don't think that's something that needs to be hidden.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:35:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact No, it might not be 'needed' but... <snip>... They are expressing their connection to someone else. I don't think that's something that needs to be hidden. If that's your view, then that's your view... but since it's not "needed", then it's merely your desire to behave in this manner. But respect that others may desire not to become an unwilling party to your dynamic/desire. As an example, a 'nilla mother standing in line at the grocery store checkout with her child and listening to you and yours refer to yourselves as "Mistress" and "slave" or "pet" or whatever may not desire to have to explain your behavior to her little one; and in fact may be offended at having been forced to now do so as a result of said speech/behavor. I'm not trying to be snotty here... simply pointing out a very real potential (and quite possibly unwelcomed) scenario. I can't tell you where the line is where YOUR rights end and another's rights begin, so that's why I personally feel it only courteous/respectful to limit certain desires to the confines of one's personal dynamic. Under our roof, he carries the name "Master" and she carries a number of different names... yet neither of us has either the need or desire to use those names with third-parties outside our dynamic. If we did, I think we'd both have to question WHY, as the use or non-use of said names in public do not in ANY way glorify or lessen who we are, or our dynamic.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 1:05:25 AM)
I can see where you're coming from, and really my fiance and I have different views about society - I like it, I don't so much mind the 'constrictions' whereas he's only in it for the running water, supermarkets and internet connections. I care more about society than he does, which is why I can see the difference between "you shouldn't offend people," and "you shouldn't offend people if you're unwilling to accept their response." And again with the getting offended part - the first time a person hears or sees something new and strange is always the most jarring. Think about a guy saying "my boyfriend" 50 years ago, and one saying it today. The only reason that people aren't as upset about hearing 'my boyfriend' from a gay man today as they were 50 years ago is because there were people bold enough to say 'my boyfriend' when talking about their boyfriend. It's not because an angel swooped down and miraculously made everyone accept it, it's because at first it was shocking, then it was surprising, then it was a bit weird, then it was something they'd heard before, then it was something they don't think twice about hearing. If people today refuse to acknowledge their relationship, as not to offend anyone, then all they're doing is making sure that 50 years from now, their relationship will still be considered offensive. That is why I say we should applaud them for it, because while people like me are living safe in our coccoons, they're taking it on themselves to make this society more tolerant. Of course then I won't get the same covert thrill from being 'naughty' as I do now, but at the same time I won't have to worry about losing my apartment if the landlord comes and sees a collar lying out. And I was thinking about the "nigger" comparison - nigger isn't a fact. Nigger is an opinion. Master is a fact just as much as boyfriend is. Also "nigger" is designed to offend. It's a derogatory slur. I guess it's like, if a woman goes to a hair salon, and the hair dresser asks "what made you decide to go redhead" is she not supposed to reply "It was my Master's idea?"

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 6:08:06 AM)
Oh I absolutely have the right, and exercise it often. Someone else has the right to say that do not agree with it. Someone even has the right to come up to me in public and say they do not agree with it. It is not a kink, it is a relationship. That is something you seem clueless about. The kind of argument and mentality you display, is similar to the one gay couples have to endure, but not so much these days. You are kind of bigoted eh? quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero Every time you talk to someone you've never met before you are including them in a dynamic. By virtue of going out in public, people EXPECT to have to "talk" to others... they do NOT, however, expect to be subject someone else's kink... and referring to one and other as "Master" and "slave" to others outside a power dynamic is doing so without their CONSENT to be included. Play as many games as you like, but nobody in this dynamic has the right to shove this off anyone who hasn't consented, as many would find it offensive in the extreme.

Lucienne -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 6:55:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA As an example, a 'nilla mother standing in line at the grocery store checkout with her child and listening to you and yours refer to yourselves as "Mistress" and "slave" or "pet" or whatever may not desire to have to explain your behavior to her little one; and in fact may be offended at having been forced to now do so as a result of said speech/behavor. I love these "think of the children" scenarios. I've had fun playing them out in my head. Think about what you are saying... the grocery store checkout is like ground zero of crass consumer exploitation. The candies placed at eye level for children. The assorted impulse purchases. Horoscopes. Trashy magazines with covers celebrating the shallowest aspects of society and exemplifying all sorts of objectifying and unhealthy attitudes towards woman. Of the dozens of sensory inputs my child could be subjected to in a grocery store checkout line, I think explaining the use of Master, slave, or pet is a pretty easy one to handle: That's what they call each other. I don't know why, they are strangers, and it would not be polite to ask. People who are freaking out at the thought of children being exposed to these terms seem to be ignoring the large amount of strange shit that children are trying to process when they are out in the world. It's like taking your kid on a tour of a red light district and worrying about how you're going to explain why so many people are wearing white shoes after Labor Day.

littlewonder -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 7:12:52 AM)
When my child was little and we'd see strange things and she'd ask I would always just say: "Because they're crazy" We'd laugh, shake our heads and leave thinking the entire time...they're crazy.

agirl -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 7:21:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact No, it might not be 'needed' but... <snip>... They are expressing their connection to someone else. I don't think that's something that needs to be hidden. If that's your view, then that's your view... but since it's not "needed", then it's merely your desire to behave in this manner. But respect that others may desire not to become an unwilling party to your dynamic/desire. As an example, a 'nilla mother standing in line at the grocery store checkout with her child and listening to you and yours refer to yourselves as "Mistress" and "slave" or "pet" or whatever may not desire to have to explain your behavior to her little one; and in fact may be offended at having been forced to now do so as a result of said speech/behavor. I'm not trying to be snotty here... simply pointing out a very real potential (and quite possibly unwelcomed) scenario. I can't tell you where the line is where YOUR rights end and another's rights begin, so that's why I personally feel it only courteous/respectful to limit certain desires to the confines of one's personal dynamic. Under our roof, he carries the name "Master" and she carries a number of different names... yet neither of us has either the need or desire to use those names with third-parties outside our dynamic. If we did, I think we'd both have to question WHY, as the use or non-use of said names in public do not in ANY way glorify or lessen who we are, or our dynamic. You don't have the desire to, for reasons and beliefs of your own. That's fine, for you. You've said no-one needs to refer to anyone as fiancee, husband, wife.......well, of course they don't need to but it's universally common, just as saying son, Mum or Dad is. Hearing Master might be unusual but it's not really going to ruin someone's day.........let's get real. It's very natural for a fair few people to refer to each other in the way they habitually do, when they're out and about. Living in the UK, it wouldn't bring anything more than a passing flicker of mild interest. You seem to invest it with far more potency than it contains. As a parent and grandparent, I have had to explain many things to my blood-related children and have never seen it as unwelcome....more as necessary, and part of the responsibility of being a parent. Child..Why is that man calling that lady "Mistress"?...... Mother's reply..* I don't know darling, now help Mummy with the bags please.... Gosh, that was hard work, wasn't it?* Children aren't offended by things like this, they are curious, just as they are curious about the different colours and shapes of squashes....or why peas are green...or why some children have very curly hair...And parent's can make as light or hard work of explaining as they choose to. They'll take their lead from you. Lesson?....People are different and do different things and it's not terribly important or something to be offended by. agirl

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:39:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The kind of attitude YOU display is self-centered, insecure, and inconsiderate. We don't need/desire to wear our dynamic on our sleeve, as it accomplishes NOTHING to include third-parties in our dynamic. Your insecure need to view yourself in some uber-dommy light prevents you from seeing that... and so, it is YOU that is "clueless". This proves it... quote: I absolutely have the right, and exercise it often... Little more than a little man needing to show off... "Oooh... Oooh... Oooh... Look at me... Look at me... aren't I so dommy-wommy wiff my wittle swavey-wavy?!!" PUKE!!! [8\|]

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA As an example, a 'nilla mother standing in line at the grocery store checkout with her child and listening to you and yours refer to yourselves as "Mistress" and "slave" or "pet" or whatever may not desire to have to explain your behavior to her little one; and in fact may be offended at having been forced to now do so as a result of said speech/behavor. I love these "think of the children" scenarios. It may suit you to ignore how you conduct yourself around children... we, on the other hand, are conscious of other people's little ones and act accordingly; by being respectful.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 12:49:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Children aren't offended by things like this, they are curious... You missed the point... it's not the "children" that are "offended"... it's the PARENTS of said children that would be offended (and possibly miffed) for having been forced to now address what their child has become "curious" about because two people feel the need to include others in their power dynamic. Thus, we find this behavior rude, and crass.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 1:02:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Like you, Elisabella, I CAN see where you're coming from too... I just don't agree. Drawing the "gay" parallel (as many have done here) is also quite different from a power dynamic. What I mean is, unlike with gay couples of years past, it's not like a couple involved in a power dynamic can't marry... publicly show affection... can't share in state rights/finances, etc. We would find it just as inconsiderate if a gay couple publicly referred to each other as "Master", "slave", "bitch" or whatever when speaking with third-parties as a straight couple involved in the power dynamic. quote: I guess it's like, if a woman goes to a hair salon, and the hair dresser asks "what made you decide to go redhead" is she not supposed to reply "It was my Master's idea?" Could just as easily say, "It was HIS idea"... adding the "Master" part is not necessary, other than for one's own self.

agirl -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 1:08:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Children aren't offended by things like this, they are curious... You missed the point... it's not the "children" that are "offended"... it's the PARENTS of said children that would be offended (and possibly miffed) for having been forced to now address what their child has become "curious" about because two people feel the need to include others in their power dynamic. Thus, we find this behavior rude, and crass. No, I think you've missed the point. If YOU think it's rude behaviour, just don't do it. I, however, do not find the remotest thing wrong with it, so therefore have a very different attitude to it....possibly because I live in a culture where people don't look agog when they come across things that are slightly outside of their norm. They mind their own business. The UK is a very small island we tend to live cheek to jowl with people and have a general tolerance for people's oddities and eccentricities. It's one of the things I like very much about this overcrowded little island. I'm afraid you'd have to do a lot more than refer to your partner as Mistress or Master to get attention......lol agirl

NihilusZero -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 1:12:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA You missed the point... it's not the "children" that are "offended"... it's the PARENTS of said children that would be offended (and possibly miffed) for having been forced to now address what their child has become "curious" about because two people feel the need to include others in their power dynamic. Thus, we find this behavior rude, and crass. Your burden of responsibility is backwards. It is the default state that being in public means that you will be exposed to most things that are not specifically illegal and that only in the case of illegal acts can you expect any sort of emotional reimbursement for seeing/hearing things. Meaning, that the process of choosing to go out in public is a simultaneous passive consent given to being able to act how you feel free to while also consenting to being exposed to the way everyone else in the world acts. There is no universal system of "rude and crass", so there is none that can be (or should be) enforced outside of the policies of private institutions for patrons/guests in their establishment (which is a vastly different topic). If you plan to live life as anything other than a hermit, you effectively sign an exposure waiver by choosing to go out in public. that's how life works: understanding your situations and making the best decisions based on those awarenesses. There are clinical terms, however, the types of people who would decide, rather, to try and control the actions of everyone else in order to make their decisions more seamless.

NihilusZero -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 1:16:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl No, I think you've missed the point. If YOU think it's rude behaviour, just don't do it. This gets back to the point I never saw an answer to earlier: How many people in a crowded room must be offended before we say the person is "imposing" themselves on the public? Just one? Do we have everyone in the area fill out a questionnaire and tally the votes and see what the majority view is? People, unfortunately, deal with this in the same way death is dealt with: impartially and indifferently until it happens close to home.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 2:04:29 PM)
I doubt you really know what respectful means. Your argument would be more correct if you replaced the phrase "by being respectful" with "conform to how others feel we should act.". Has nothing to do with respect, it has to do with social mores, and whether you decide to hide and lie about who you are. You can walk around being ashamed of the relationship you are in, constantly creating a charade, but some of us realize it does not cause the hysterical reaction that you are putting forth, and that this relationship is just as valid as any other. Some of us do not have a wife, girlfriend, or any of the socially prevelant terms, we have a slave, and we handle the relationship that way. quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA It may suit you to ignore how you conduct yourself around children... we, on the other hand, are conscious of other people's little ones and act accordingly; by being respectful.

Elisabella -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 5:44:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Like you, Elisabella, I CAN see where you're coming from too... I just don't agree. Drawing the "gay" parallel (as many have done here) is also quite different from a power dynamic. What I mean is, unlike with gay couples of years past, it's not like a couple involved in a power dynamic can't marry... publicly show affection... can't share in state rights/finances, etc. We would find it just as inconsiderate if a gay couple publicly referred to each other as "Master", "slave", "bitch" or whatever when speaking with third-parties as a straight couple involved in the power dynamic. quote: I guess it's like, if a woman goes to a hair salon, and the hair dresser asks "what made you decide to go redhead" is she not supposed to reply "It was my Master's idea?" Could just as easily say, "It was HIS idea"... adding the "Master" part is not necessary, other than for one's own self. Well saying "it was his idea" only works if the Master is actually at the salon and you can point (coughpointingisrudecough). Otherwise a pronoun without an antecedent is meaningless. And I'd actually draw the line at 'bitch' when it comes to rudeness. I don't think anyone saying "Master" or "slave" is being rude regardless of whether others take offence to it, but I do think saying bitch out in the shops is rude (and Lord knows I've been guilty of it myself) because it is a curse word. That being said, I tend to look at nearly everything in terms of enlightened self interest. I know, I'm awful. I don't swear in front of kids, and my main motivation is "because I don't want to be that type of person" rather than "because it would affect the kid badly" which is why when I look at this, I can completely agree with you that saying something that knowingly offends someone (nigger, bitch, etc) is wrong, and saying some words (master, slave) may offend someone...and then just shrug and say "well it's their decision if they want to be offensive." And yeah I've shushed my friends when we're out and they curse in front of kids (side note, one of the most funny, and by funny I mean sad, things I've ever experienced was when I nudged my friend for cursing in front of a kid on the train, then when we got out of the tunnel his mother started swearing on her cell phone. WTF) but I hope that the reason they stop is not "because Lis told me so" but rather "because I value my friendship with Lis more than being able to curse on the train" or even, God forbid, "Because Lis is right" [8D] In other words I hope it's a conscious decision rather than a blind obedience, but knowing my friends I think it is. And re: "a master/slave couple can marry unlike a gay couple" I'm going to point out the obvious here and ask, what if they're a gay M/s couple? [8D]

LadyPact -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 6:06:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact No, it might not be 'needed' but... <snip>... They are expressing their connection to someone else. I don't think that's something that needs to be hidden. If that's your view, then that's your view... but since it's not "needed", then it's merely your desire to behave in this manner. But respect that others may desire not to become an unwilling party to your dynamic/desire. As an example, a 'nilla mother standing in line at the grocery store checkout with her child and listening to you and yours refer to yourselves as "Mistress" and "slave" or "pet" or whatever may not desire to have to explain your behavior to her little one; and in fact may be offended at having been forced to now do so as a result of said speech/behavor. I'm not trying to be snotty here... simply pointing out a very real potential (and quite possibly unwelcomed) scenario. I can't tell you where the line is where YOUR rights end and another's rights begin, so that's why I personally feel it only courteous/respectful to limit certain desires to the confines of one's personal dynamic. Under our roof, he carries the name "Master" and she carries a number of different names... yet neither of us has either the need or desire to use those names with third-parties outside our dynamic. If we did, I think we'd both have to question WHY, as the use or non-use of said names in public do not in ANY way glorify or lessen who we are, or our dynamic. As I've said before, whether a parent likes their responsibility connected with having their children, it really still is theirs. The line of thinking would be fabulous if we could extend it to many other things in life. Wouldn't it be great if we could stop murders just because parents don't want to explain why some people kill other people? We could have one religion, too, if Mom or Dad didn't want to explain why some people go to temple on Saturdays and others go to church on Sundays. There is a difference in My opinion to involving someone in your kink as opposed to just going about your day to day business. I'm not going to look over My shoulder to see if there is some chance that someone is within ear shot if I ask clip a question or for some reason call him "lil one". Funny, now that I think about it, if you are actually correct, I shouldn't particularly call him "clip" either, since that was the name that was given to him when he started a dynamic with Me. My goodness! I can't imagine how many people could have been possibly offended by hearing such a four letter word that is so obviously involving them in our kink. I never imagined that c-l-i-p could have such an impact.

HimNbabygirl -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 6:19:09 PM)
i have heard people say, don't call each other Master and slave, i hear and respect your opinion. My question is this, what am i supposed to call Him out in public? i do not call Him by His name, i could, but it does not feel right. He could call me by my name, but He does not. W/we are not husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, fiances, W/we are Master and slave. If i can, i avoid calling Him Master in public, but more often than not, because W/we are alone more than W/we are out in public, it just slips out. He does not call me slave, He calls me baby girl. Believe me, as a 37 year old grandmother, i am a long way off of being either a baby or a girl. Why should we hide this? O/our names for each are no worse than some couple calling each other snookie-ookums, or what ever pet names they have for each other. If the kiddies overhear and ask about it, all you have to say is, that's just what they call each other, like when Mommy and Daddy call you (insert child's pet name here). From my experiences with my own children they will say oh or ok and forget about it. Seriously, W/we are not doing anything against the law, He's not exposing my naked body, He's not spanking me, He's not doing a thing to or with me that would get either of us thrown in jail. i may be His slut in the bedroom, but in public i am a lady and He treats me as such. Hiding our relationship accomplishes nothing other than to hide it and if every one else in the lifestyle hides their relationship all it accomplises is keeping others from even trying to understand the lifestyle. my $.02 worth His baby girl

AnimusRex -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 9:18:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl The UK is a very small island we tend to live cheek to jowl with people and have a general tolerance for people's oddities and eccentricities. It's one of the things I like very much about this overcrowded little island. I'm afraid you'd have to do a lot more than refer to your partner as Mistress or Master to get attention......lol agirl One such example.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wippooDL6WE

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Involving others in your kink vs. Not feeling the need to hide it (11/26/2009 10:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Children aren't offended by things like this, they are curious... You missed the point... it's not the "children" that are "offended"... it's the PARENTS of said children that would be offended (and possibly miffed) for having been forced to now address what their child has become "curious" about because two people feel the need to include others in their power dynamic. Thus, we find this behavior rude, and crass. No, I think you've missed the point. If YOU think it's rude behaviour, just don't do it. I, however, do not find the remotest thing wrong with it, so therefore have a very different attitude to it....possibly because I live in a culture where people don't look agog when they come across things that are slightly outside of their norm. They mind their own business. The UK is a very small island we tend to live cheek to jowl with people and have a general tolerance for people's oddities and eccentricities. It's one of the things I like very much about this overcrowded little island. I'm afraid you'd have to do a lot more than refer to your partner as Mistress or Master to get attention......lol agirl No... my point is valid, as it focuses on the PARENTS of the children being offended, where your position was the children being offended; which is not likely, as they wouldn't understand. If you have no problem with parading your dynamic, then go for it. Again, I find it rude, inconsiderate, and crass. That's not an attack on you... just stating how I feel about this.

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