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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 2:54:30 AM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Does sex have to be about intimacy? Do people have sex when they go to these sort of clubs? Some people are into being a slave, some into being Dominant, some people are into pony play, cross dressing, wearing latex or being an EXHIBITIONIST.

Your post sounds very intolerant.


You forgot pornography. And no, not all acts of sex require intimacy, nor should they. Some people are quite capable of compartmentalizing, but those aren't the ones I was referencing. It is something else entirely when ones kink becomes a substitute for intimacy. I was only offering an explanation from experience for why so many on this thread find the scene "less then desirable". I, for one, happen to agree with them.

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 3:12:54 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
On Sunday we ran our usual fet market. As usual I laughed, chatted and embraced scene people. The day was hospitable, friendly and fun and yet under my smile I was cringing, wondering what I was doing.

As the strength in my relationship has grown, everything to do with this world has weakened. Im not sure why that is, if its normal ?
I do want to remain involved but not feeling like this. Its like I have woken up, looked at my world and gone 'WHAT???'

Has anyone else gone through this ?


We have attended events and munches etc.
I have co-hosted one.  That in itself was a chore because of petty jealousy and the previous munch runner feeling that a munch - in the neighbourhood that she had left and abandoned people by just dropping the munch when she left - was still 'hers' and we weren't allowed!

But that's just it - drama and the contrived feel of events that puts my teeth on edge.  Exhibitionism has a place, but at the risk of others it's just so uncool.  Fet clubs are becoming more the place to be seen than they are to enjoy.  It's less about the relationships or what there is to buy and more about the networking.

You get invited to more events and places, because of who you are and what you represent.  It adds kudos to an area in a way - if you go.  But it only adds the kudos for a small section of people.  Those that are new or just there for the fun - it means nothing really.  They just want to enjoy, not network.

So when the networking starts and the exhibitionism is forced in your face - where does that leave the rest?  It leaves them ridiculing an event or not returning because they didn't fit.

It's contrived and that is what makes it boring.  Dress codes - people codes - don't do this, don't touch that - don't speak, don't breath, don't stare, don't ask... rulesrulesrules and yet a community expressing the desire for free expression?

If your networking and into a business it's cool.  But it is the PTA or the Country Club, as opposed to the knitting circle.

the.dark.

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 3:43:49 AM   
allthatjaz


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Status: offline 		Of course there's a bizarre factor but the one thing I learnt very early on was 'tolerance' I have seen some wild things, beautiful things and crazy things in clubs and whilst I may not be able to get my head around some of them. I quietly accept that its their thing and if they are happy then whats so funny?
I may find myself questioning myself as to why a man wants to wear pink latex and wear a corset that gives him a 20inch waste but it doesn't amuse me. Why would it amuse me? Who the hell am I to laugh at something someone else gets off on?


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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 3:55:36 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Ah...but you were the one to use the words ridiculous, oompa loompah and odd in your OP.
Please don't get me wrong. We don't stand there pointing and laughing. We are extremely functional in society.
We have seen a lot of funny, strange things in these clubs. We laugh. We laugh when we leave. We aren't rude.
We also aren't vanilla and have done things that many would laugh at if they saw us. Hell...we laugh at ourselves all of the time and know that we are just as bizarre.
It's just the ones that try to convince themselves that they aren't... that make them all the more amusing.


I am tolerant. Extremely so. I also laugh at things I find funny.

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:08:47 AM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Personality-wise, I'm pretty similiar to Aileen.

The handful of munches and demostrations I've seen, while lacking in oompa-loompaness , did have a fair amount of folks trying to "be" their role, whether dominant, submissive, etc. It did seem to be more prevalent than in vanilla life, but maybe that is the nature of kink, so much of it is so strongly related to our roles, that I suppose it's not terribly abnormal for people to have an elevated concern about fitting into those roles.

Bleh.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:09:50 AM   
allthatjaz


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Status: offline 		I understand what your saying thedark, More and more clubs in the UK have become fashion shows and they are policed so tightly that everyone is restricted. That is not the promoters fault because venues are tightening rules and making it almost impossible. Dress codes were originally set in place to keep the unwanted out but theres little to keep out now because nothing really goes on!
You either run a BDSM club and drop your dress code to 'smart black' and get a fairly quiet club with some good full on scenes but no drinking and so no bar take or you run a fetish club where everyone dresses up, nobody really plays or if they do its very moderate and everyone drinks, dances and drinks some more. Fet clubs are busy. TG can easily take 2000 people on a Saturday night. They make more on the bar in one night than a BDSM club would take in its lifetime.
I sometimes go to BDSM gay nights in Vauxhall. Its raw, hardcore and these guys really do let go of all the rules but they can do that because the law know that, that particular area is un-policable. When a new club recently started with the intention of it being 'hard-core' there was a huge police presence all night. Those that dared to venture out became nervous and refrained from having some fun.
Underground clubs are starting to sprout up but your right, your only going to get an invite if you know the right person. That immediately restricts a large majority and you end up seeing the same faces at every party you attend.

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:26:37 AM   
allthatjaz


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Status: offline 		Your right Aileen, I have become intolerant. I have always been intolerant of bigots and scene trouble makers and christ knows we see enough of them but I have also become intolerant of what this is all about. I went there when I had nothing else. If I had, had no BDSM clubs, munches, workshops, performances I would of been left with exactly nothing to do with any of this. I did this because it liberated me, gave me the freedom that I needed and in return I had to accept and tolerate just about every other fetish known to man. More than anything else, it was my tolerance that gave me so much freedom.
I have no right to question why some oompa loompah wants to be dragged around on a collar and leash by granddad and I have no right to question why a guy wants to tightly clad his cock and balls in a harness for the evening but I do and that is why I started this thread. I didn't start it because I think its hilarious or because I wanted to mock and tease but because I am finding myself sitting in the sad position of intolerance and it doesn't lay well on my conscience.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 3/11/2010 4:27:48 AM >

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:28:23 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Maria,

A friend of mine is a former SF prodomme, still lives there.  She attends bondage workshops at least a few times a month, knows the Knotty Boys, stuff like that.  She and I met on CollarMe, and dated a few times before moving Platonic.  I asked her at one point why she was using online dating when she had so many kinky contacts in her real life.

Her answer was this: she believes the people who are the most physically and emotionally attractive do not tend to become scene regulars, because they don't have to.  If they're single, they get a fair number of "opportunities" just in regular life, with partners who want to please them and so are willing to at least "try on" kink.

After she dated me, she dated a couple sleazeoids off Match.com, and finally found a great guy who was her boyfriend and Master for a long time, off PlentyofFish.  Both he and she had Fetlife profiles before meeting, but they had never contacted each other that way.


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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:38:57 AM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		I look at something like what you've described, laugh in my head and say to myself..."whatever floats their boat"
It doesn't affect my life one little bit and then I never give them a second thought.
I don't use the scene to define myself. I've been kinky long before I ever went to a public venue.
Are you perhaps taking things too personally if someone doesn't place the same levels of importance as you do? I don't mean that in any kind of condescending way.
You don't need public venues to enjoy your kink. You are still the same person in your living room. Or at least you should be.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 3/11/2010 4:41:52 AM >

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:49:52 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Quickie before I leave for work:

Laughing at something isn't necessarily intolerant. I may laugh at someone doing something I find funny, but I don't do so hatefully, and I would defend their right to do their "thing".

Just saying.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 4:57:28 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		I can believe it RedMagic. When I split from my ex I met Steve online. I wanted to meet someone away from the scene. Online was so far away from the gossip and title tattle that goes on. I also used an English site at the time but I knew most of them in rl and because of the sort of business I was in I had to be guarded about myself. I never joined debates or let anyone know anything personal about me. Very few people really knew the whole me and I suppose it was partly the fear of gossip and reputation that stopped me from letting them.

Of all the people I knew on the scene I didn't have an iota of interest in forming a relationship with any of them, not because they knew me but because they didn't know me. There are plenty of attractive people on the scene, both emotionally and physically but it is a breeding ground for false expectations.




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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 5:04:41 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Quickie before I leave for work:

Laughing at something isn't necessarily intolerant. I may laugh at someone doing something I find funny, but I don't do so hatefully, and I would defend their right to do their "thing".

Just saying.


Laugh with someone
Laugh at someone

Laughing at someone because of the way they dressed or the way they looked in their fet gear or the way the dominated or the way they submitted would be considered a humiliating laugh, unless they thought you laughing at them was funny too.
A laugh is meant to be shared and not used at someone elses expense.



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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 5:21:57 AM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

As the strength in my relationship has grown, everything to do with this world has weakened. Im not sure why that is, if its normal ?
I do want to remain involved but not feeling like this. Its like I have woken up, looked at my world and gone 'WHAT???'

Has anyone else gone through this ?



I never went through this, but only because I (and my former master) were always like this. I agree with your observations. I think you're just seeing things as they actually are. I try hard never to socialize too much with or pick my friends from a "common interests" group. Too often, the common interest is the only thing we have in common and there's nothing about their personalities, level of intelligence, ethics or other qualities that is in the least bit appealing or compatible. I think this is a sign you're dropping some of the shallowness that's necessary in order to appreciate, even worship--as some do--a cultish social scene. Be happy about this. It's a positive change, although it can feel uncomfortable at times. There are probably a few very good people somewhere in the Scene. But in the years/decades I've been around it (I had to traverse its edges for business reasons as well) I have seldom met such people. I did meet a lot who were very skilled at faking admirable ethical qualities (for the sole purpose of being admired), but who always backstabbed those closet to them, in the end.

"And do not miss the moral of the case...," said Brecht in _A Man's A Man_, "...that the world is a dangerous place."

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 5:27:44 AM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Laugh with someone
Laugh at someone

Laughing at someone because of the way they dressed or the way they looked in their fet gear or the way the dominated or the way they submitted would be considered a humiliating laugh, unless they thought you laughing at them was funny too.
A laugh is meant to be shared and not used at someone elses expense.




All humor is at SOMEONES expense. Think about it.  If you can't laugh at yourself, you are not someone I would wish to know. If you CAN laugh at yourself, why can't others laugh at you?

Here if you want to be safe, you would have to mock the Amish, they will never know.


Jeff

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 6:07:37 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19
What I have trouble with are those who come to criticise when they have had no experience.The OP is criticising an observation.  An absurdety which she has been a part of. I do admit feeling that at times. But its fun and amusing.

I admit I have a knee jerk reaction to judgments made without knowlege.
I'm not saying that never happens from non-scene people.  It's happened in this thread.  But I've seen it happening the other way round a lot more.

There's obvious stuff like the "anyone who isn't in the scene is obviously dangerous and you should fuck me instead!" brigade.  Then you've got things like the emphasis by some on "references from respected BDSMers" and the presentation of public play as an integral part of what BDSM is.  Both of which de facto suggest that 'proper' BDSM is scene BDSM.  Then there's the subtle assumptions, like telling every newbie to "go to a munch", in a way that presents it as the only option.

To be fair, I don't think most of the people doing this stuff are doing so consciously. It's merely that their perspective on BDSM is so heavily linked with the scene that they're genuinely incapable of understanding that BDSM is not the same as the BDSM subcultural group.  And you also get some who have their entire self-image based on being an "important person in the BDSM scene".  And they're threatened by the idea that might not matter to other BDSMers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Laughing at someone because of the way they dressed or the way they looked in their fet gear or the way the dominated or the way they submitted would be considered a humiliating laugh, unless they thought you laughing at them was funny too.
A laugh is meant to be shared and not used at someone elses expense.

The much vaunted non-judgementalness (is that a word?) of the scene has always been a myth anyway.  It only applies if you fit the list of accepted kinks.

Furries being an obvious example of a group that don't get to join in the games with the other reindeer.


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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 6:42:56 AM   
osf


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quote:

But in the years/decades I've been around it (I had to traverse its edges for business reasons as well) I have seldom met such people. I did meet a lot who were very skilled at faking admirable ethical qualities (for the sole purpose of being admired), but who always backstabbed those closet to them, in the end.




That and commercialization have ruined it, they are always trying to sell either themselves or something for money or both

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 6:52:02 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
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Status: offline 		All the world a stage, and "fashionable" players in both Vanilla and kink are susceptible to Narcissistic personality disorders - acting like they're 18 and beautiful is the least of your worries, they could be having kids.

The more fashionable it becomes, the more it's gonna resemble the shallow values of the rest of the media generation - the advertising industry is, by definition, only concerned with the external and the superficial, if you want to experience anything deeper, you're on your own - we're all in that same boat.

It's fantasy, believe me, they have to go home and look all their shortcoming in the face in the mirror - some people live their whole lives dreaming about escaping their fate, their assigned roles, living out someone else's idea of who they should be - it's like getting out of prison for some of these people, they may be a little pale and pasty.

Let 'em live a little, it's no skin off your nose, forget aesthetics, and learn to see the beauty in the "grotesque", because that allows you to look beneath the surface, and as it turns out, looks ain't everything. We all get older, and all the while our outsides get less and less pretty, we're the same people we were at 25 in most respects, just a lot more experienced.

Hopefully.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/11/2010 6:55:32 AM >

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 6:59:12 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Of course there's a bizarre factor but the one thing I learnt very early on was 'tolerance' I have seen some wild things, beautiful things and crazy things in clubs and whilst I may not be able to get my head around some of them. I quietly accept that its their thing and if they are happy then whats so funny?
I may find myself questioning myself as to why a man wants to wear pink latex and wear a corset that gives him a 20inch waste but it doesn't amuse me. Why would it amuse me? Who the hell am I to laugh at something someone else gets off on?



My first thought is that laughter, in no way, has to equate with intolerance. Not at all. If that were the case I would be the most intolerant person in the universe because I think human beings, myself included, are totally fucking hysterical. I am not going to be a hypocrite and say I don't laugh at human weirdness. Just because I laugh, does not mean I do not support their right to be weird......quite the opposite actually. I want people to be weird!! If people were not weird, I would be bored senseless.

As for your changing point of view on people's weirdnesses........that would be 100% totally normal and natural. You, Maria, are not a stagnant being. You are constantly evolving, changing, growing. With those changes, comes a different outlook. It is normal! What you found exciting 5 or 10 years ago, probably not so much so now. What freaked you out then, probably less so now. What made you happy then, probably not so now. What makes you happy NOW, probably wouldn't have then. Quit being afraid of your changes because they sound like they are pretty damned awesome.

Just look at your situation from a different perspective. Just because you may no longer want something in your life, or that it seems weird or funny to you when it didn't in the past, does not mean you are intolerant of it or others doing it. It simply means it's not your thang any more. There are loads of things I enjoyed 10 or 20 years ago that don't even interest me at all now. Some of them, if I think about it, reminded of them.....would even cause me to roll my eyes or laugh and say "what the hell was I thinking?!?!?" And I would wonder why anyone would want to do, whatever that thing might be. Just because I do not hold the 'thing' in high esteem does not mean I am intolerant of someone else wanting to do it.........just that it's not for me and if I am lucky, I can laugh about it.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 7:02:53 AM   
osf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19
What I have trouble with are those who come to criticise when they have had no experience.The OP is criticising an observation.  An absurdety which she has been a part of. I do admit feeling that at times. But its fun and amusing.

I admit I have a knee jerk reaction to judgments made without knowlege.
I'm not saying that never happens from non-scene people.  It's happened in this thread.  But I've seen it happening the other way round a lot more.

There's obvious stuff like the "anyone who isn't in the scene is obviously dangerous and you should fuck me instead!" brigade.  Then you've got things like the emphasis by some on "references from respected BDSMers" and the presentation of public play as an integral part of what BDSM is.  Both of which de facto suggest that 'proper' BDSM is scene BDSM.  Then there's the subtle assumptions, like telling every newbie to "go to a munch", in a way that presents it as the only option.

To be fair, I don't think most of the people doing this stuff are doing so consciously. It's merely that their perspective on BDSM is so heavily linked with the scene that they're genuinely incapable of understanding that BDSM is not the same as the BDSM subcultural group.  And you also get some who have their entire self-image based on being an "important person in the BDSM scene".  And they're threatened by the idea that might not matter to other BDSMers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Laughing at someone because of the way they dressed or the way they looked in their fet gear or the way the dominated or the way they submitted would be considered a humiliating laugh, unless they thought you laughing at them was funny too.
A laugh is meant to be shared and not used at someone elses expense.

The much vaunted non-judgementalness (is that a word?) of the scene has always been a myth anyway.  It only applies if you fit the list of accepted kinks.

Furries being an obvious example of a group that don't get to join in the games with the other reindeer.




In a way that was my problem from the first few meetings of the Black Rose I attended, I didn't seem to feel as most there did. I always had a relationship orientation and most there were married and there the one time a week to get their fix. So i guess we had a mutual misunderstanding of each other.


It took me a few years to figure this out even though I sat on the board for a year.

From my experience since then most munches are not attended by people wanting 24/7, so telling someone new looking for a 24/7 relationship to attend local munches may just confuse them

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i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: What is this odd world that I live in? - 3/11/2010 7:24:31 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
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Status: offline 		CaringandReal, shallowness is a good word in this particular thread. I can put my hand up and say that I lived in the midst of things but had a very shallow existence. I learnt what a bitchy place it was and your right about back stabbers but its also one of the most friendly places I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.
Its also the sort of place where people find each other and move on and away from but then this place is a bit like that too. You get the peacocks that hang around forever but pomp is their thing.

Jeff... All humor is not at someones expense. If my son gave me a clown act I would laugh at him, if macey jane giggled uncontrollably, as she often does, I couldn't help but laugh with her. If I slipped on a banana skin in front of all my friends and laughed, then they would laugh with me but my own laughter gives them the right to laugh with me and not at me. If you go to a fet club and laugh at people because you think they look like freaks, then you need to have a quiet word with yourself and ask yourself how you would feel if everyone was laughing at you. If you have dressed to amuse then thats fine but if you have dressed in something because you feel good in it and know you can wear it to a place where people won't sit there sniggering then that laughter is at your expense. There is a huge difference.

Opocolypso, your of course right. There are a huge amount of judgmental people on the scene, from tearing apart a perfectly good workshop just because they happen to not like the guy, to ripping apart someones reputation just so they can get their grubby hands on his sub. Its rife unfortunately and its a place where you either toughen up quickly and learn that most of what your told is vindictive bollocks. Once people understand your not interested in their shit stirring they normally don't tell you anymore.
There are a lot of people saying go to a munches or workshops on here and its true that the majority don't want to or cant for one reason or another. I don't get the impression people are insinuating that people not on the scene are not really into it but then I'm probably not looking at it from the same angle you are. Pulling back from the scene has made my lifestyle much more real than it ever was. I don't believe going to parties and so on make you any more or less than someone who chooses not to. One thing I have seen a lot of on this particular site, is mockery of the scene but once again I see that because I am on the scene!

Aileen, This entire topic was started by me saying that I feel jaded with the scene. I never said You need public venues to enjoy your kink. Neither did I say, you are not still the same person in your living room and so Im not sure why you said that?? This topic was not about being bigger or better than anyone else and neither was it about belittling those that don't go out on the scene. Threads deviate but I never once took it in that direction.
No I am not taking this personally but I found your post insulting to any of us that have had the desire to put on fet gear and go and scene in a club.

Thanks LT you made a lot of sense.


< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 3/11/2010 7:27:48 AM >

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S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos


Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Apocalypso)
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