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The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 7:52:37 PM

Apocalypso

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This is an article by an atheist, on what he thinks are some major problems with the atheist movement today. I thought it might be of interest, particuarly to those who discuss religion on this forum. It's long, so I'm going to post some selected extracts. It's very much worth reading in full though. Find it here- http://heathen-hub.com/blog.php?b=215

As if atheists didn't have enough problems already, some atheists really like creating problems for the rest. It is just a fact that until atheists as a movement, or part of the overall movement, start overcoming how those few cause them problems, then atheism will remain often ineffectual and prone to being viewed with much negative prejudice by the general population in places like the USA.

Lack of solid confidence -- some atheists seem to lack confidence in their atheism, leading them to constantly seek validation for it, and to an exaggerated hostility towards religion as a whole and so on.

Then there is sheer narcisstic egotism. Quite a few seem to use the atheist movement and boards as simply vehicles to demonstrate their supposed superiority over the common plebians of benighted humanity.

The main argument against religion, the main thing wrong with it, is its pretensions. Religion is often presented as an answer to everything. Then believers run up against the hard fact that no matter how comprehensive the religion and no matter how detailed it is, it simply does not and cannot have answers for all the problems that occur in anyone's life, and in the whole human condition.

Ironically enough, some atheists create the same problem for atheism, in a wholly unnecessary manner. By pretending that atheism is the answer to everything, or by pretending that elimination of religion would cure all ills, those offenders simply set others up to be disappointed in atheism or to forever agitate and live on absurdly unrealistic expectations.

That's a very short selection, but it's enough to give an idea of the general feel of the article.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 7:59:34 PM

Musicmystery

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I'll take a look at the whole thing later.

I have trouble, though, with the concept of atheism as a movement. I don't believe in fairies either, but I don't have to attend afairist meetings.

If some see their position as a movement, I wish they'd call it something different, rather than assume they speak for others.

(in reply to Apocalypso)

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 8:02:13 PM

WyldHrt

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We have a movement? That's news to me.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 9:09:50 PM

DomKen

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Another blog demanding that atheists be nice to the religious. Been there done that and it got us precisely nowhere.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 9:17:52 PM

Smutmonger

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I'd rather be in thier faces demanding my constitutional rights to be free of having thier tripe imposed on me.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 10:54:59 PM

Brain

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I'm happy now with atheism because the world makes sense to me now. And I like atheism because it forces me to be responsible for my future. I have never liked it when I hear people say, “Put it all in God's hands. Put all your problems in God's hands. He will take care of it, all your worries, and you will feel better.” What a bunch of crap brainwashing me to think some imaginary man in the sky cares about my life; and after that they ask for the money.
What kind of god lets Adolf Hitler kill 6 million Jews? Like that make any sense, I think I could hit him three or four times for that.

It's a little confusing being an atheist because I still consider myself Greek Orthodox. It's kind of like being an American who moved to Canada and you still consider yourself American but you’re also Canadian. I think you can be Greek Orthodox and not believe in God. Just because you move to another country doesn't mean you're no longer a citizen.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 11:16:44 PM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

I'd rather be in thier faces demanding my constitutional rights to be free of having thier tripe imposed on me.

What exactly do you think you would accomplish with that approach? It's easy to be an idealist when one has the moral high ground or is correcting some terrible injustice, but that is hardly the case here. Don't get me wrong...I think the Athiests are on the right side of history. Fifty or a hundred years from now people will look back at our current religious ideals and convictions with the same disdain that we look back at the Salem witch trials. But in the mean time, let's be real...80-90% of the population professes to believe in some God, and about 30% of those are far right fundamentalists. Since religion is deeply engrained in the dominant culture, I doubt getting in their face is going to get you anything except maybe some spit in your eye.

Let me ask you - do you think that the gay rights proponents marching naked down main street, or storming churches and throwing condoms into the congregation, or producing Bruno helped or hurt their cause? Hell, even many gay rights activists were offended by the "in your face" debauchery of Bruno and admitted it did nothing but reinforce stereotypes (although the scene where Bruno mistook Ron Paul for Rupaul was just too funny to be missed).

A couple of years ago there was a thread here about a young kink couple in the UK who got tossed off a bus because the young man was leading his girlfriend around by a leash. Do you think their "in your face" actions changed any hearts and minds toward the acceptance of alternative lifestyles?

I am just as frustrated as you are by the political activism of the religious right. As tempting as it is sometimes to be idealistic, a realistic approach serves us better. They are not going to give up their faith because we get in their face, but the moderate ones can be encouraged to sit and have dialogue with us. I agree with the author of the article in that we should be better organized. We should have stated goals and objectives, become more politically active and work to elect those who are openly atheist or agnostic to public office. After all, what minority groups have ever gained rights or acceptance without some sort of advocate in the legislature? Each generation is becoming less and less religious. We may just need to let history run it's course on this one.

(in reply to Smutmonger)

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 11:34:25 PM

belladevine

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Why must people feel the need to identify with groups either religious or non religious?

Is there something wrong with being an American?

I believe in personal responsibility, the United States Constitution and the law.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 11:43:23 PM

Justme696

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quote:

Is there something wrong with being an American?

that would lead to the same discussion.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 11:46:00 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Another blog demanding that atheists be nice to the religious. Been there done that and it got us precisely nowhere.

be nice?
Fuck that! Take out in the courts, they all operate in fraud.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/13/2010 11:48:43 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

I'd rather be in thier faces demanding my constitutional rights to be free of having thier tripe imposed on me.

You gotta be careful!

Your unalienable rights, that which government CANNOT take away originated from religion!

Civil rights, that which government CAN take away came from atheists! LOL

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Smutmonger)

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:04:17 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine

Why must people feel the need to identify with groups either religious or non religious?

Is there something wrong with being an American?

I believe in personal responsibility, the United States Constitution and the law.

Maybe it is just me...but I get the feeling you have a few other core beliefs,ones you only hint at here....I'm thinking white supremacy is at the top of you hit parade....the tune thast keeps rolling around in between those litlle ears!

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:12:29 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine

Why must people feel the need to identify with groups either religious or non religious?

Is there something wrong with being an American?

I believe in personal responsibility, the United States Constitution and the law.

Maybe it is just me...but I get the feeling you have a few other core beliefs,ones you only hint at here....I'm thinking white supremacy is at the top of you hit parade....the tune thast keeps rolling around in between those litlle ears!

more like whats in your twisted head.

American has nothing to do with white supremacy.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 13

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:17:25 AM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine

Why must people feel the need to identify with groups either religious or non religious?

Is there something wrong with being an American?

I believe in personal responsibility, the United States Constitution and the law.

People are social animals and it is only natural that they would want to congregate according to similar belief systems. We want to be around people who have something in common with us. There is nothing un-American about that, as long as one group doesn't restrict or impede upon the rights of another, or in this case, one group forcing it's beliefs or value system upon another.

(in reply to belladevine)

Post #: 14

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:41:33 AM

NihilusZero

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Atheism, fundamentally, can only fail as a movement. It is a counterpoint view. Each atheist is also something else in addition to being an atheist (e.g. secular humanist, materialistic reductionist, existentialist...).

Now, when you can get the same group together as 'free thinkers' or even 'skeptics', you have a much broader foundation from which to impart positive effects (and by positive I don't mean it has to be happy news, just that it takes an informative direction rather than just a debunking direction).

The fact that atheism exists much more solidly in tangible and logical reality than, say for instance, 'intelligent design' shouldn't be an excuse to have it also be nothing more than a 'movement of rebuttal'.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:53:55 AM

Ialdabaoth

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So why bother with athiesm as a rebuttal, then? The proper answer to "God is real!" is not "No He isn't!" if you want to accomplish anything; it's "so what?"

Christians, Jews and Muslims don't need to be shouted down; they need to be worked with. There's plenty of things in all the worlds' holy books that are perfectly compatible with an athiest agenda. It's not belief in God that needs to be combated; it's disbelief in reality.

At core, people need to accept certain axiom, regardless of what they choose to believe the "root causes" for them are:

1) There exist such things as logic and causality; that is, things happen as the results of our choices, and we can figure out what sorts of things are likely to result from what kinds of choices.
2) There exist such things as learning and intelligence; that is, there are processes that are good at figuring out what choices tend to lead to what results, and we can discover and apply them.
3) There exist such things as good and bad; that is, that certain results are preferable to others, and by 1 and 2 we can work out ways to tell one from the other.

Once we can agree to those three principles (and it shouldn't be hard), it shouldn't be difficult to demonstrate that we're all on the same side. We can all apply learning and intelligence to understand what choices will lead to what results, and we can all apply our sense of good and bad to decide what results we prefer.

Questions like "is capitalism better than communism?" or "is homo sapiens a species of ape?" or "do species evolve over time?" or "does the earth orbit the sun?" are questions that we can actually answer by looking around us and asking the right questions. They aren't answers we can get by faith; they aren't answers that we can get by closing our eyes and wishing real hard that things work a certain way. We have sensory organs - whether you believe they were given by God or the chance whim of an uncaring universe doesn't change the fact that most of us can see, hear, smell, taste and touch, and - most importantly of all - think. So any time we talk about something happening in the "real world" - something that can possibly interact with out senses - we need to approach it from the perspective that there are observable consequences to our choices, and we need to decide what consequences we want to inflict upon the world.

There are perhaps more fundamental questions, that cannot be answered in this manner. But ultimately, the question that needs to be asked is do they matter? If they have some effect on our experience, then they're right back to being questions about the real world again, that we can answer through sensory experience and experimentation. If they don't have some effect on our experience, then how are we supposed to proceed at all?

(in reply to NihilusZero)

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 3:07:51 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

1) There exist such things as logic and causality; that is, things happen as the results of our choices, and we can figure out what sorts of things are likely to result from what kinds of choices.
2) There exist such things as learning and intelligence; that is, there are processes that are good at figuring out what choices tend to lead to what results, and we can discover and apply them.
3) There exist such things as good and bad; that is, that certain results are preferable to others, and by 1 and 2 we can work out ways to tell one from the other.

Once we can agree to those three principles (and it shouldn't be hard), it shouldn't be difficult to demonstrate that we're all on the same side.

Except the existence of 3 specifically undermines/negates (or creates the ability for the undermining/negation of) 1 and 2.

All that matters, in the end, is the self-created subjective value structure of the individual and it will exist without needing to abide by the premises of 1 and 2. Technically, 3 happens longs before 1 and 2 meaning that by the time they roll around, they're optional depending on whether they happen to conflict with the already established 3. And to edit 3, without reasonable concern for the individual being a non-consensual danger to others, would have to happen through undesirable means (e.g. brainwashing) which, in all likelihood, is itself a violation of 3.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 3/14/2010 3:08:29 AM >

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 3:16:52 AM

Ialdabaoth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

1) There exist such things as logic and causality; that is, things happen as the results of our choices, and we can figure out what sorts of things are likely to result from what kinds of choices.
2) There exist such things as learning and intelligence; that is, there are processes that are good at figuring out what choices tend to lead to what results, and we can discover and apply them.
3) There exist such things as good and bad; that is, that certain results are preferable to others, and by 1 and 2 we can work out ways to tell one from the other.

Once we can agree to those three principles (and it shouldn't be hard), it shouldn't be difficult to demonstrate that we're all on the same side.

Except the existence of 3 specifically undermines/negates (or creates the ability for the undermining/negation of) 1 and 2.

All that matters, in the end, is the self-created subjective value structure of the individual and it will exist without needing to abide by the premises of 1 and 2. Technically, 3 happens longs before 1 and 2 meaning that by the time they roll around, they're optional depending on whether they happen to conflict with the already established 3. And to edit 3, without reasonable concern for the individual being a non-consensual danger to others, would have to happen through undesirable means (e.g. brainwashing) which, in all likelihood, is itself a violation of 3.

I strongly disagree. "Good" and "bad" are not the same thing as "good" and "evil" - we're talking about consequences of actions, here, or at the most abstract states of the world. At core, axiom 3 simply states "Some futures are preferable to others, and there are rules that determine why one future is preferable to another."

Lemme put that another way:

A) It's certainly permissible to say "it is good for human beings to see, and bad to make human beings blind." It's not a given (although I think most people would agree with it), but it's certainly a possible belief that's valid within axiom #3.

B) It's also permissible to say "it is good for human beings to have lye squirted in their eyes." It's not a given (and I think most people would disagree), but again, it's certainly a possible belief.

What isn't permissible is to say that both A and B are true, because guess what happens when you squirt lye in people's eyes? They go blind! So if you have one belief about "good" / "bad" that directly conflicts with another one, it's time to go home and rethink your life.

Put another way: it's perfectly okay to say "X is good", with no justification. But if you decide that you need justification, then the moment you say "X is good because of Y", Y had better be true, and had better not conflict with some other thing that you said was good.

If we can at least get that far, I think we can make headway.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 3:20:16 AM

JonnieBoy

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Does a topic on "Atheism" actually belong under "religion"

Grinz

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 3:28:56 AM

NihilusZero

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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I strongly disagree. "Good" and "bad" are not the same thing as "good" and "evil" - we're talking about consequences of actions, here, or at the most abstract states of the world. At core, axiom 3 simply states "Some futures are preferable to others, and there are rules that determine why one future is preferable to another."

Except the rules that govern 3 will spawn irrelevant of 1 and 2. It is all interpretative. The fatal flaw of our species' self reflective sentience is precisely the ability to create intellectual, solipsistic gilded cages.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Lemme put that another way:
...

What isn't permissible is to say that both A and B are true, because guess what happens when you squirt lye in people's eyes? They go blind! So if you have one belief about "good" / "bad" that directly conflicts with another one, it's time to go home and rethink your life.

This comes under the presumption that adhering to the facts of reality (even in the face of reality) is, for all, a "preferable outcome". I suspect the use of hallucinogenic products would not be so popular if humans, by and large, were creatures for whom reality trumps imagination. These people already have a system of "preference" developed and it doesn't give a hoot about the rules of logic or reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Put another way: it's perfectly okay to say "X is good", with no justification. But if you decide that you need justification, then the moment you say "X is good because of Y", Y had better be true, and had better not conflict with some other thing that you said was good.

Or what? At worst, their idea is awkward and socially screwy enough that they get thrown into a padded room and medicated to where they cannot willingly choose to live their fantasies anymore. Otherwise, there is no way to extract that value placement for those who have made it their lifeblood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

If we can at least get that far, I think we can make headway.

That's a pretty big "if"!

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 20

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