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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:58:04 PM

InvisibleBlack

Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The atheist says "This is all there is"

That's quite an assumption.

Fair enough, I may be operating under a mistaken concept. Please define "atheism" for me.

quote:

Second, why would a causal chain stop without a god in the equation?

By "causal chain" are you referring to an explanation for events as they occur or a determination for the existence of the Universe? Or both?

_____________________________

Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 81

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 9:09:32 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The atheist says "This is all there is"

That's quite an assumption.

Fair enough, I may be operating under a mistaken concept. Please define "atheism" for me.

a·the·ism
/ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/
–noun
1. the belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

I don't believe in fairies either. When I look at a forest glen, I don't think "this is all there is."

quote:

Second, why would a causal chain stop without a god in the equation?

By "causal chain" are you referring to an explanation for events as they occur or a determination for the existence of the Universe? Or both?

Either, actually. You're assigning a simplistic response based on non-belief in a deity.

Events could have a host of incredible explanations without a god.

And not just atheists--many religions don't simply assume a god created the universe. In Hindu thought, for example, the universe always has been. In Greek mythology, the universe created the gods. Similar deviations can be found in native American beliefs and other peoples globally.

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)

Post #: 82

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 4:39:12 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
I actually see a weaker moral compass with people who think they can "pray and be forgiven" than I do with non faith individuals.

We accept that there are consequences for poor behavior-and there is no higher power to pass the buck to.

Is it only through religion we find how to live life?

See, that's what I'm talking about. When people assume that if I believe in some sort of Diety that I must also believe in a "pray and be forgiven" philosophy. Which I do not. I personally want to bitch-slap the people who have the "Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven" bumper stickers.

I don't pass the buck to a higher Power. I pray in order to tap into that Power because I believe that is what that Power is for. I take full responsibility for my own actions and choices. I don't expect anyone else to be me.

I have spent a good amount of time looking at religions to see what it is they have in common. There's a lot actually. Not everyone can be right. Not everyone can be wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Beliefs in such things as faeries, kami, forest spirits or whatever, occur in many cultures. If we take the stories about faeries literally, i.e., that they are little people-like beings with wings who dance in circles in glens, then, just as with a literal interpretation of the Bible, there is simply a failure to distinguish between logos and mythos.

On the other hand, whether or not there might actually be some forms of intelligence or sentience of which we are generally unaware, but which are reflected in these myths, is at present unknown. Lack of evidence is argument from ignorance. One can only be agnostic about such things.

Unless, of course, one holds an affirmative belief about the ultimate nature of reality which would exclude such a possibility. But given that science is still a long way from making a definitive statement about the ultimate nature of reality, that just brings us back to one person's beliefs versus another person's beliefs about things that aren't known.

K.

That humans began to call this energy or intelligence "God" doesn't mean It doesn't or can't exist. I personally believe science will one day discover It and give It a different name. And that doesn't bother me at all. This Spirit has been and is called by many different names already.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Smutmonger)

Post #: 83

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 4:45:03 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

That humans began to call this energy or intelligence "God" doesn't mean It doesn't or can't exist. I personally believe science will one day discover It and give It a different name. And that doesn't bother me at all. This Spirit has been and is called by many different names already.

Could I ask you to take a look at what you just said?

You are making the argument that anything can exist if we just believe it, regardless of lack of any proof.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 84

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 6:29:02 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

See, that's what I'm talking about. When people assume that if I believe in some sort of Diety that I must also believe in a "pray and be forgiven" philosophy. Which I do not. I personally want to bitch-slap the people who have the "Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven" bumper stickers.

The people who make such assumptions usually have only been exposed to Christianity and they are ignorant about other religions and concepts of the Sacred. They often do not have intellectual interest in how other people conceive their world and tend to paint the world with one brush to dismiss it.

quote:

I don't pass the buck to a higher Power. I pray in order to tap into that Power because I believe that is what that Power is for. I take full responsibility for my own actions and choices. I don't expect anyone else to be me.

And not everyone who prays for forgiveness is passing the buck. It is part of the process some people go through to forgive themselves so that they can move on with their lives... and for some it is passing the buck, too

quote:

I have spent a good amount of time looking at religions to see what it is they have in common. There's a lot actually. Not everyone can be right. Not everyone can be wrong.

Well, actually they all "could" be wrong, but regardless, I would think that they are all right, for those who practice them. It is kinda like telling someone that they way they practice D/s is "wrong" because it is different from the way you do it. As long as no one is harmed from a religious belief, I tend to think that way about it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 85

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 6:31:29 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

That humans began to call this energy or intelligence "God" doesn't mean It doesn't or can't exist. I personally believe science will one day discover It and give It a different name. And that doesn't bother me at all. This Spirit has been and is called by many different names already.

Could I ask you to take a look at what you just said?

You are making the argument that anything can exist if we just believe it, regardless of lack of any proof.

And you are disbelieving it, even though there is ample proof that people have been experiencing something since the dawn of time...

I understand you haven't felt anything resembling the spiritual, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps you were born without the ability? It is kinda like someone born without the ability to see telling everyone who can to "prove" it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 86

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 7:59:07 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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There were people at the dawn of time?

Not even Creationists believe that. They give God a few days head start...

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/15/2010 8:41:57 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 87

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:14:52 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've never bought this notion that believing this time is all we'll ever have is a disincentive to try to treat people properly, put it that way. It's more of an incentive to try and stop people from wrecking the party for everybody else, not less.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

- LA

There's a lot of people with strong religious views who believe that doing all manner of abominable things to others is acceptable, because it's what God/Buddha/Kali/other wants. Atheists don't have that excuse, or a conviction that people are going somewhere better after they die, so there's more of an incentive for them to try to treat other people properly while they're still alive. Sorry that wasn't clear.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 88

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:21:01 AM

JonnieBoy

Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

That humans began to call this energy or intelligence "God" doesn't mean It doesn't or can't exist. I personally believe science will one day discover It and give It a different name. And that doesn't bother me at all. This Spirit has been and is called by many different names already.

Could I ask you to take a look at what you just said?

You are making the argument that anything can exist if we just believe it, regardless of lack of any proof.

That's what some people believe ... and there's no proof they're wrong.

Pirate

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 89

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:46:20 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There were people at the dawn of time?

Not even Creationists believe that. They give God a few days head start...

Without humans to perceive time, does it exist?

Space and time, hmmmm... quantum questions... get back to me when you have some sources

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 90

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:48:01 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

There's a lot of people with strong religious views who believe that doing all manner of abominable things to others is acceptable, because it's what God/Buddha/Kali/other wants. Atheists don't have that excuse, or a conviction that people are going somewhere better after they die, so there's more of an incentive for them to try to treat other people properly while they're still alive. Sorry that wasn't clear.

Personally, I think good people will be kind and bad people will be cruel with or without religion. But I'll give you this much, for good people to be cruel takes religion.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/15/2010 8:52:31 AM >

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 91

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:53:24 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There were people at the dawn of time?

Not even Creationists believe that. They give God a few days head start...

Without humans to perceive time, does it exist?

Space and time, hmmmm... quantum questions... get back to me when you have some sources

No, julia, all reality is inside your head. I thought everyone knew that.

Learn the difference between people joking with you and persecution.

Get help. Talk to a professional. It's getting worse.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 92

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:57:48 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Without humans to perceive time, does it exist?

Space and time are the framework within which the mind is constrained to construct its experience of reality. ~Immanuel Kant

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/15/2010 8:58:35 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 93

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 9:51:35 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Without humans to perceive time, does it exist?

Space and time are the framework within which the mind is constrained to construct its experience of reality. ~Immanuel Kant

K.

Schrödinger's cat in some ways.. a thought experiment at the very least

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 94

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 9:52:41 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There were people at the dawn of time?

Not even Creationists believe that. They give God a few days head start...

Without humans to perceive time, does it exist?

Space and time, hmmmm... quantum questions... get back to me when you have some sources

No, julia, all reality is inside your head. I thought everyone knew that.

Learn the difference between people joking with you and persecution.

Get help. Talk to a professional. It's getting worse.

You know what, I was joking too

Pot kettle black

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 95

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 10:20:41 AM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

From the link in the OP:

quote:

then atheism will remain often ineffectual and prone to being viewed with much negative prejudice by the general population in places like the USA.

The writer expresses two concerns - efficacy of promoting a non-theist worldview and reducing negative prejudice. He focuses on how the "movement" can better present itself to serve these concerns. It makes sense to focus on the things you can control and he seems to do a decent analysis. At the same time the problem for atheists (rather than "with") is sheer bigotry and that can't be overcome just by expressing oneself nicely. I think the bigotry against atheists, particularly in the political sphere, is very damaging to US society (and others, but I'll focus on my country). Like any other sort of irrational discrimination, it deprives the community of the talents of good people. The political thing drives me absolutely nuts (I think open pedophiles are the only group less likely to win political office than open atheists) because it drives off the honest people and encourages false declarations of faith. And along the lines of "injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere" I think the problem for atheists is and should be a problem for theists as well.

It all comes down to freedom of conscience, a fundamental human right that we all enjoy, not just those who believe in God. I think the best suggestion I've seen for combating bigotry against atheists is to highlight the differences between religions. That would run contrary to many ecumenical efforts, but it would stress the importance of "live and let live" (or "live and let burn in hell"). It could also promote secularism indirectly in that it would work against support for stupid shit like having fights about creches on public property. Recognizing and respecting differences.

(in reply to Apocalypso)

Post #: 96

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 10:30:44 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

At the same time the problem for atheists (rather than "with") is sheer bigotry and that can't be overcome just by expressing oneself nicely. I think the bigotry against atheists, particularly in the political sphere, is very damaging to US society (and others, but I'll focus on my country). Like any other sort of irrational discrimination, it deprives the community of the talents of good people. The political thing drives me absolutely nuts (I think open pedophiles are the only group less likely to win political office than open atheists) because it drives off the honest people and encourages false declarations of faith. And along the lines of "injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere" I think the problem for atheists is and should be a problem for theists as well.

Put like that I can understand the way atheists may feel about what they live with as far as discrimination. I mean for the most part I do not get asked what my religious beliefs are in my every day life, especially when I am job seeking (religion is protected under the Civil Rights laws) but you are right, it is hard for anyone that is not Protestant to get elected, not just Atheists...which is a shame, and as someone that is not a Protestant, I suffer from the same discrimination...perhaps Atheists could join with other religious minorities? Movements require combining forces after all

Edited to add this link about religion and the congress... there are a lot of Catholics that also hold public office, as well as a high percentage of Jews.... so I should amend that to being those who believe in the God of Abraham hold political office, all others marginalized

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1064/the-religious-makeup-of-congress

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/15/2010 10:38:15 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 97

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 10:50:01 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

stupid shit like having fights about creches on public property. Recognizing and respecting differences.

I think this is the core of the problem today. Atheists are perceived as being out to suppress religion, and as far as possible any signs of its existence. The rhetoric of Dawkins and others, and the legal challenges to what is perceived by many as being within the "free expression" clause of the Constitution, create a fear of what would happen if Atheists had their way. But if, instead, Atheists were perceived as being equally as accepting of belief as of non-belief, if their image was one of impartiality, an Atheist might well be trusted more than someone who appears to be too committed to the narrow views of a particular body of faith!

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/15/2010 11:03:56 AM >

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 98

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 11:08:13 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Any organized religion will incorporate a belief in God with a set of rules on how to live life. Atheism is nothing more than the rejection of belief in God and does not include any system of ethics or laws.

So, am I misreading or are you saying that those who do not participate in organized religion have no moral code or ethics?

I guess he'll have to speak for himself but I think you're misreading him. DarkSteven's right Atheism is nothing but a particular stance on a single topic. There's no system of ethics inherent in atheism. However, atheists generally have a morality and system of ethics in addition to that position and I didn't see DarkSteven make any claim to the contrary.

GotSteel, you have it right. I did not mean to imply that atheists have no morality or ethics, but that atheism itself does not impose it.

Now this is my God up in heaven entertaining the "Troops"; "I tell ya, I don't get no respect! I go into that site Collarme.com, you have to take two steps down to get into it, one step physically and one step socially!"
"Ok, lets welcome Buddy Hackett and Shecky Green to the stage!"
Hey Steven, maybe my God is Jewish!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 99

RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 11:29:52 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

f their image was one of impartiality, an Atheist might well be trusted more than someone who appears to be too committed to the narrow views of a particular body of faith!

When I was doing my undergrad work another student established a Free Thought club on campus to counter many of the Christian groups that had come on campus who were mobilizing every few paces along the quad with pamphlets. I thought this was a wonderful idea and went to a couple of the meetings. What I found was intolerance toward people who believed differently but wanted to support a secular community on campus, in other words there was a lack of willingness to be inclusive to people that support the Free Thought cause even though they have their own religious views.

I am for secular government. I do not think that religion is appropriate to display in the public sphere in a way that puts government in the role of favoring one religion over another, but in this group I was fairly much disinvited because I am not an Atheist. I did not advocate for a religion, but I said I believed in spirituality, and therefore they did not want me there. I was not offended by this, their group, if they do not want to add to their numbers with people who could be allies because those people believe differently than they do, that is their choice... but it is unfortunate that the focus is on disproving god rather than advocating for tolerance...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 100

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