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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 9:08:05 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

It wasn't getting defensive, it was a question.

Look in the mirror about being defensive.

Just as you did on the other thread, any questioning of religious belief is greeted by you with hostility.


No.. I think there are parts of the OP that you could learn from

quote:

some atheists seem to lack confidence in their atheism, leading them to constantly seek validation for it, and to an exaggerated hostility towards religion as a whole and so on.

Then there is sheer narcisstic egotism. Quite a few seem to use the atheist movement and boards as simply vehicles to demonstrate their supposed superiority over the common plebians of benighted humanity.

The main argument against religion, the main thing wrong with it, is its pretensions. Religion is often presented as an answer to everything. Then believers run up against the hard fact that no matter how comprehensive the religion and no matter how detailed it is, it simply does not and cannot have answers for all the problems that occur in anyone's life, and in the whole human condition.

Ironically enough, some atheists create the same problem for atheism, in a wholly unnecessary manner. By pretending that atheism is the answer to everything, or by pretending that elimination of religion would cure all ills, those offenders simply set others up to be disappointed in atheism or to forever agitate and live on absurdly unrealistic expectations.




The parts I bolded remind me of you...

And you insistence that I am defending a particular religion (supposedly my own) when I have time and again disavowed having any religion in my life, is particularly telling, it must be awful to try to dismiss me as a member of the god squad when I am not a member of it.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 9:18:55 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

Does a topic on "Atheism" actually belong under "religion"





Why not?  It's a faith-based system of belief.


If that's true, then so is not believing in fairies.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 10:17:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If that's true, then so is not believing in fairies.

This raises an interesting issue, Tim. Beliefs in such things as faeries, kami, forest spirits or whatever, occur in many cultures. If we take the stories about faeries literally, i.e., that they are little people-like beings with wings who dance in circles in glens, then, just as with a literal interpretation of the Bible, there is simply a failure to distinguish between logos and mythos.

On the other hand, whether or not there might actually be some forms of intelligence or sentience of which we are generally unaware, but which are reflected in these myths, is at present unknown. Lack of evidence is argument from ignorance. One can only be agnostic about such things.

Unless, of course, one holds an affirmative belief about the ultimate nature of reality which would exclude such a possibility. But given that science is still a long way from making a definitive statement about the ultimate nature of reality, that just brings us back to one person's beliefs versus another person's beliefs about things that aren't known.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/14/2010 11:01:10 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 11:31:48 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Atheism, fundamentally, can only fail as a movement. It is a counterpoint view. Each atheist is also something else in addition to being an atheist (e.g. secular humanist, materialistic reductionist, existentialist...).

Now, when you can get the same group together as 'free thinkers' or even 'skeptics', you have a much broader foundation from which to impart positive effects (and by positive I don't mean it has to be happy news, just that it takes an informative direction rather than just a debunking direction).

The fact that atheism exists much more solidly in tangible and logical reality than, say for instance, 'intelligent design' shouldn't be an excuse to have it also be nothing more than a 'movement of rebuttal'.



This.

- LA

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 11:37:08 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine
Holey Bible


This might be the most ironically delicious typo I've ever seen ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 11:45:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

If that's true, then so is not believing in fairies.

This raises an interesting issue, Tim. Beliefs in such things as faeries, kami, forest spirits or whatever, occur in many cultures. If we take the stories about faeries literally, i.e., that they are little people-like beings with wings who dance in circles in glens, then, just as with a literal interpretation of the Bible, there is simply a failure to distinguish between logos and mythos.

On the other hand, whether or not there might actually be some forms of intelligence or sentience of which we are generally unaware, but which are reflected in these myths, is at present unknown. Lack of evidence is argument from ignorance. One can only be agnostic about such things.

Unless, of course, one holds an affirmative belief about the ultimate nature of reality which would exclude such a possibility. But given that science is still a long way from making a definitive statement about the ultimate nature of reality, that just brings us back to one person's beliefs versus another person's beliefs about things that aren't known.

K.




I agree with you here.

But then, you and I are having a philosophical discussion in a context where many others are having a political discussion.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:06:54 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I'd also add that based on survey's reports I've read, most atheists, including Richard Dawkins, are de facto atheists who perceive that the existence of God is a very low probability, but short of zero. The statement would be: 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/14/2010 12:07:09 PM >

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:58:07 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why not?  It's a faith-based system of belief.

Atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 12:59:08 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why not?  It's a faith-based system of belief.

Atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Nicely put.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:05:58 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Why not?  It's a faith-based system of belief.

Atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Nicely put.


Indeed!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:13:34 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Any organized religion will incorporate a belief in God with a set of rules on how to live life.  Atheism is nothing more than the rejection of belief in God and does not include any system of ethics or laws.


So, am I misreading or are you saying that those who do not participate in organized religion have no moral code or ethics?

I guess he'll have to speak for himself but I think you're misreading him. DarkSteven's right Atheism is nothing but a particular stance on a single topic. There's no system of ethics inherent in atheism. However, atheists generally have a morality and system of ethics in addition to that position and I didn't see DarkSteven make any claim to the contrary.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:18:37 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I've always found the whole "only religious beliefs can provide a system of morals" argument laughable. Who in their right mind would think that Fred Phelps or Osama bin Laden are more moral individuals than Harry Harrison or George Bernard Shaw? It's nice to see I'm not the only one with no patience for that silly nonsense.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:20:44 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the whole "only religious beliefs can provide a system of morals" argument laughable. Who in their right mind would think that Fred Phelps or Osama bin Laden are more moral individuals than Harry Harrison or George Bernard Shaw? It's nice to see I'm not the only one with no patience for that silly nonsense.


I have always said that some of the most ethical people I know are Atheists... and some of the biggest scoundrels call themselves "Christians"...

Or as my mom used to tell me "When someone tells me 'trust me, I'm a Christian' I look for the knife they are going to sink in my back"




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:23:27 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Excellent point Moonhead.

I always say that as an atheist, I have the burden of having on one to blame for the way my life goes. Looking at one's self in the mirror is a challenging thing, but it is at the core of the way I live my life.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:29:12 PM   
Apocalypso


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Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Hmm....this blogger couldn't possibly sound less like an atheist.
Why do you think that?  That's interesting because I don't see any statements that suggest he believes in the supernatural, which would suggest that there are actually other conditions needed in order for someone to "sound like an atheist".


_____________________________

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Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:30:10 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I've never bought this notion that believing this time is all we'll ever have is a disincentive to try to treat people properly, put it that way. It's more of an incentive to try and stop people from wrecking the party for everybody else, not less.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 1:33:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I guess he'll have to speak for himself but I think you're misreading him. DarkSteven's right Atheism is nothing but a particular stance on a single topic. There's no system of ethics inherent in atheism. However, atheists generally have a morality and system of ethics in addition to that position and I didn't see DarkSteven make any claim to the contrary.




yup a contradiction in terms


_____________________________

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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 4:09:03 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

Does a topic on "Atheism" actually belong under "religion"





Why not?  It's a faith-based system of belief.


Don't be SILLY, too much sun on your head ?

Pirate

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 4:18:26 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Atheism is nothing but a particular stance on a single topic.



Not believing in any gods is not a "stance".

I'd imagine it is possibly perceived that way by religious people who cannot understand not being a theist and feel threatened by the unknown.

93.4% of Atheists never bother to tell anyone they are.

Pirate

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 4:41:03 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No.. I think there are parts of the OP that you could learn from

quote:

some atheists seem to lack confidence in their atheism, leading them to constantly seek validation for it, and to an exaggerated hostility towards religion as a whole and so on.

Then there is sheer narcisstic egotism. Quite a few seem to use the atheist movement and boards as simply vehicles to demonstrate their supposed superiority over the common plebians of benighted humanity.

The main argument against religion, the main thing wrong with it, is its pretensions. Religion is often presented as an answer to everything. Then believers run up against the hard fact that no matter how comprehensive the religion and no matter how detailed it is, it simply does not and cannot have answers for all the problems that occur in anyone's life, and in the whole human condition.

Ironically enough, some atheists create the same problem for atheism, in a wholly unnecessary manner. By pretending that atheism is the answer to everything, or by pretending that elimination of religion would cure all ills, those offenders simply set others up to be disappointed in atheism or to forever agitate and live on absurdly unrealistic expectations.




The parts I bolded remind me of you...

And you insistence that I am defending a particular religion (supposedly my own) when I have time and again disavowed having any religion in my life, is particularly telling, it must be awful to try to dismiss me as a member of the god squad when I am not a member of it.



Just as you continually dismiss me as an atheist when I have clearly stated I am not.




(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 60
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