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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 4:53:41 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

But given that science is still a long way from making a definitive statement about the ultimate nature of reality, that just brings us back to one person's beliefs versus another person's beliefs about things that aren't known.

K.


No, it really doesn't.

You are trying to compare beliefs with probabilities.

Probabilities have some basis in fact, beliefs do not need that basis.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 5:51:27 PM   
takemeforyourown


Posts: 430
Joined: 2/24/2007
Status: offline 		I used to be an atheist, then I realized that it is just another religion.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 6:27:06 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've never bought this notion that believing this time is all we'll ever have is a disincentive to try to treat people properly, put it that way. It's more of an incentive to try and stop people from wrecking the party for everybody else, not less.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

- LA

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 6:29:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But given that science is still a long way from making a definitive statement about the ultimate nature of reality, that just brings us back to one person's beliefs versus another person's beliefs about things that aren't known.

K.

No, it really doesn't.

You are trying to compare beliefs with probabilities.

Probabilities have some basis in fact, beliefs do not need that basis.

I have to go with Kirata on this one. While I don't necessary agree with him entirely, I readily concede he has a point.

Intelligent Design, for example (the philosophical version, not the Creationist co-opted one), says essentially this---that God is probable given XYZ. It's not a proof, but it IS a reasonable position.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 6:30:41 PM >

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 7:36:08 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Status: offline 		Isn't that the same thing as what I answered you here about the De facto atheist?

- LA

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 7:39:47 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Intelligent Design, for example (the philosophical version, not the Creationist co-opted one), says essentially this---that God is probable given XYZ. It's not a proof, but it IS a reasonable position.


Can you provide a link to that assertion?


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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 7:52:40 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The problem with atheists is that they're stupid.
All you have to do is to look around you and you can kind of figure out that there's something much greater than us in the universe.
With all of mankinds technology we couldn't create a blade of grass on our own.
I'm no fan of "religions" but I certainly believe in God.
And like I've said in here before my God is a hot shit and never wears long flowing robes! Where did that shit come from anyway?

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 7:59:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Status: offline 		Wow popeye. I like when someone's only argument against me is that I'm stupid. I haven't heard that retort since my primary school yard ;-) Very telling of where the opinion is coming from.

- LA

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 7:59:48 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

All you have to do is to look around you and you can kind of figure out that there's something much greater than us in the universe.


That's not the same as saying it's got to be a god, popeye.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:05:53 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You are trying to compare beliefs with probabilities.

Probabilities have some basis in fact, beliefs do not need that basis.

There are no scientific probabilities here. There is no way to calculate the statistical probability of there being some kind of universal consciousness, God, or whatever. There is only our own personal assessment.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/14/2010 8:06:36 PM >

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:08:45 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Intelligent Design, for example (the philosophical version, not the Creationist co-opted one), says essentially this---that God is probable given XYZ. It's not a proof, but it IS a reasonable position.


Can you provide a link to that assertion?



Well, it's just a matter of common definition, not a questionable unsupported claim like the ones you want accepted without proof.

But sure. Took me 30 seconds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:11:35 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Wow popeye. I like when someone's only argument against me is that I'm stupid. I haven't heard that retort since my primary school yard ;-) Very telling of where the opinion is coming from.

- LA



Lady Angelica, I'd let you worship my Bishop! Does that make it better?
I should have said that "Atheism" is stupid not Atheists.
Oh, and my God looks like Rodney Dangerfield.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:13:34 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You are trying to compare beliefs with probabilities.

Probabilities have some basis in fact, beliefs do not need that basis.

There are no scientific probabilities here. There is no way to calculate the statistical probability of there being some kind of universal consciousness, God, or whatever. There is only our own personal assessment.

K.



It is such a common experience, the experience with interacting with the Sacred. It gets labeled by people, it gets defined, they anthropomorphize it, and try to own it, but most cultures since the dawn of time have experienced it in some form or another. It is a common human experience. To say that all those experiences have no basis in any reality is to negate what it is to be human from what I know of the human experience. We experience something that we at times label "god". To me this would point to some sort of collective consciousness, or larger consciousness, or omnipotent being. I am not defining what the Sacred is, I do not need to own it, or define it, or tell others they are wrong about it... but to state that there is low probability that it exists seems arrogant and dismissive of other people's experiences.

I suppose trying to describe the sacred to someone that has never experienced it is kinda like explaining what it is like to fall in love for the first time, if you have never loved, how would you know... you might even disbelieve love even exists. 


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:21:50 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Any organized religion will incorporate a belief in God with a set of rules on how to live life.  Atheism is nothing more than the rejection of belief in God and does not include any system of ethics or laws.


So, am I misreading or are you saying that those who do not participate in organized religion have no moral code or ethics?

I guess he'll have to speak for himself but I think you're misreading him. DarkSteven's right Atheism is nothing but a particular stance on a single topic. There's no system of ethics inherent in atheism. However, atheists generally have a morality and system of ethics in addition to that position and I didn't see DarkSteven make any claim to the contrary.



GotSteel, you have it right.  I did not mean to imply that atheists have no morality or ethics, but that atheism itself does not impose it.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:25:53 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Can you provide a link to that assertion?
Plantinga's modal version of the ontological argument is probably the most developed form of that.


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Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:27:31 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
There are no scientific probabilities here. There is no way to calculate the statistical probability of there being some kind of universal consciousness, God, or whatever. There is only our own personal assessment.


I agree with you. Part of that personal assessment is building a framework that one uses to navigate reality. I think everyone does this, even if it's not concsciously. The theist says "God did this" and has a basis for judging events against. The atheist says "This is all there is" and has a basis for judging events against. When these frameworks don't match each other is where the conflict between people occurs - because it's not really a question of whether there's a God or not - it's question of whether one's fundamental map of how reality works is accurate or not - and that's a tough spot to argue from.

Saying that there definitively is or isn't something is operating from a position of surety. That's the most comfortable position to be in.

Neither theism nor atheism is scientific - because the scientist would say "There is insufficient data to form a testable hypothesis - therefore we cannot be sure at this time" and most people aren't really comfortable with that as a position for building a map of reality.

Left without evidence, one has no choice but to form some sort of overall concpetion of the nature of reality based on personal experience and imparted experiences of others - and this is going to be idiosyncratic. I suspect that no two people's understanding of their religion, belief, philosophy or whatever is an exact match. Really, the best anyone can do is say "I believe this but I can understand how you could believe that".

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:32:06 PM   
Tantriqu


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Status: offline 		Actually, atheism has a moral imperative of secular humanism, while religion is wielded as an excuse for racism.
Plus, 95% of MENSA members, the top 2% of IQ test-takers, are atheists. We, as secular humanists, win!!

The only trouble is our racism-free holidays and cursewords aren't sexy: Boxing Day and OMS:
Oh . . . My . . . SCIENCE.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:32:12 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Can you provide a link to that assertion?
Plantinga's modal version of the ontological argument is probably the most developed form of that.



Thank you


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:36:50 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The atheist says "This is all there is"


That's quite an assumption.

First, "all there is" is pretty damn impressive.

Second, why would a causal chain stop without a god in the equation?

(in reply to InvisibleBlack)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/14/2010 8:36:58 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Actually, atheism has a moral imperative of secular humanism, while religion is wielded as an excuse for racism.
Plus, 95% of MENSA members, the top 2% of IQ test-takers, are atheists. We, as secular humanists, win!!

The only trouble is our racism-free holidays and cursewords aren't sexy: Boxing Day and OMS:
Oh . . . My . . . SCIENCE.


That is not true... mensa atheistsare only 3.9%

A
quote:

merican Mensa Ltd. Demographics
  • 64.4% male, 35.4% female (0.2% won't say)
  • 54% between 30-49 years of age, 14% under 29, 0.32% over 80
  • 31.2% in first marriage, 29.82% never married, 13.32% divorced once, 9.53% in second marriage after a divorce
  • Just over half have no children, 12.4% have one child, 18.66% have 2, 9.95% have 3, 4.37% have 4, 1.29% have 9+
  • about 30% earn $20-40,000, 10% earn $50-75,000, 9% earn $40-50,000 and about 0.5% earn more than $250,000.
  • 17.93% Master's degree or equivalent, 17.56% four year graduates, one in 11 are Ph.D.s.
  • 41% work in private industry, 13% in government, 13% self employed.
  • 88% European ancestry.
  • 49% Christian, 3% Unitarian, 9% Jewish, 7% agnostic, 3.6% atheist, 9% no religion
  • 14% only children, 19+% older of two, 12.5% younger of two, 11.5% oldest of three, 6.8% middle of three, 5.8% youngest of three, 9.7% oldest of more than three, 10.8% middle of four or more, 4.4% youngest of four or more
  • Computer-related occupations 10%, 3.75% own their own business, Electrical Engineers are 2.6%, 7.5% are in education, 3% lawyers, 0.11% judges, 0.02% are in astronomy.


http://mwm.us.mensa.org/faq/people.html


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Tantriqu)
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