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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 11:35:03 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

stupid shit like having fights about creches on public property. Recognizing and respecting differences.

I think this is the core of the problem today. Atheists are perceived as being out to suppress religion, and as far as possible any signs of its existence.


Just as feminists are perceived by some as being out to suppress men and civil rights activist are perceived by some as being out to suppress white people or straight people. Social justice is never achieved by over-indulging the perceptions of the privileged. It is achieved by challenging and changing those perceptions in enough people that they will voluntarily give up their privilege. And the privileged who can't be convinced have shown a willingness to bitterly fight for its retention and punish those who threaten it.

quote:

The rhetoric of Dawkins and others, and the legal challenges to what is perceived by many as being within the "free expression" clause of the Constitution, create a fear of what would happen if Atheists had their way.


I don't think most Americans have the slightest clue who Dawkins is or what he's had to say. As for the legal challenges, dear Lord (pun intended). Legal challenges are made to religious expression made through government institutions. I'm unaware of any atheists bringing law suits against private individuals. Dawkins isn't suing for equal time on anyone's pulpit. The issue is with the apparent government endorsement of religion. And the legal reason things like "In God We Trust" remain printed on our money is because of "ceremonial deism." The crux of ceremonial deism is that the culture has absorbed rote recitation of certain religious things and because it is rote, it is sufficiently stripped of religious content as to survive challenge under the establishment clause. It survives that challenge because it is found to not be a religious expression at all, as much as a cultural one.

As for fearing what would happen if the Atheists had their way... no "under God" in the pledge, no creches on the front lawn of the town hall, no organized prayer in public schools... um, why is this a nightmare scenario, exactly? If your religious faith will collapse for want of these basically trivial things don't you need to do a little work on yourself rather than demanding a world that deprives you of opportunities to sin? The triviality of them is treated as a defense by promoters but, really, they are trivial in their religious content but a rather raw attempt to promote and maintain an undeserved cultural privilege.

I am a person of faith and I would much rather live in a country dominated by secular humanism than christian fundamentalism. I don't need an assist from the government to maintain my faith.



quote:

But if, instead, Atheists were perceived as being equally as accepting of belief as of non-belief, if their image was one of impartiality, an Atheist might well be trusted more than someone who appears to be too committed to the narrow views of a particular body of faith!

K.


And if people truly embraced the concept of freedom of conscience, they would judge others more on their actions than their religious belief (or lack thereof). What you're saying is basically that if atheists would just stop being atheist, or stop being openly atheist, then this wouldn't be an issue. True. But not helpful.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 11:52:50 AM   
urineme


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Joined: 11/4/2009
Status: offline 		As an atheist who grew up in a prot.fundie (Southern Baptist) family, and who has done a little religious tourism, what I see happening is that others who call themselves "Atheist" take a religiously-intolerant stance, and "Take offense" at theists, of whatever ilk, celebrating their right to express their religious beliefs. (Religious symbology at holidays, etc.) NOTHING in of that nature is an imposition upon anyone TO believe. If what you want is to be allowed to be totally oblivious to the fact that others have theistic beliefs, it just isn't going to happen, so line up and get your high-colonic reality enema NOW! It takes two to make a fight out of things, so, if we don't start it, ...... Religion, or the lack thereof, is a right. Stand for your rights by all means, but don't attack the rights of others.

William

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 12:15:21 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

For instance not too many years ago a major TV hostess said on air that "Under no circumstances would I ever vote for an atheist [for President] because they are terrible [and have] no moral code." and she never apologized and was not taken off the air over the incident. substitute christian, jew or even hindu for atheist in that quote and I guarantee you that the result would have been quite different.



You will always have people who'll vehemently oppose your point of view - and be militant about it - particularly when the issue is wrapped up in identity and purpose (and people aren't going to relinquish identity at the drop of a hat). Surely you're plumbing the same depths when you take an incident (or a few) and turn it into a cause? Perhaps you're in a place that has had its day in England - though that's not to say we haven't had our share of religious strife in the past.





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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 5:36:29 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the whole "only religious beliefs can provide a system of morals" argument laughable. Who in their right mind would think that Fred Phelps or Osama bin Laden are more moral individuals than Harry Harrison or George Bernard Shaw? It's nice to see I'm not the only one with no patience for that silly nonsense.


I have always said that some of the most ethical people I know are Atheists... and some of the biggest scoundrels call themselves "Christians"...

Or as my mom used to tell me "When someone tells me 'trust me, I'm a Christian' I look for the knife they are going to sink in my back"






Hmm... odd... i keep reading on atheists sites that for every atheist mass-murderer, there is a religious mass-murderer.

And i keep running into this as well.. something along these lines

there are some people who behave immorally and try to use atheism to justify their actions. there are equally many people who behave immorally and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their actions.

Seems the flip side of the coin isnt so flip.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 5:45:16 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the whole "only religious beliefs can provide a system of morals" argument laughable. Who in their right mind would think that Fred Phelps or Osama bin Laden are more moral individuals than Harry Harrison or George Bernard Shaw? It's nice to see I'm not the only one with no patience for that silly nonsense.


I have always said that some of the most ethical people I know are Atheists... and some of the biggest scoundrels call themselves "Christians"...

Or as my mom used to tell me "When someone tells me 'trust me, I'm a Christian' I look for the knife they are going to sink in my back"






Hmm... odd... i keep reading on atheists sites that for every atheist mass-murderer, there is a religious mass-murderer.

And i keep running into this as well.. something along these lines

there are some people who behave immorally and try to use atheism to justify their actions. there are equally many people who behave immorally and then try to use religious beliefs to justify their actions.

Seems the flip side of the coin isnt so flip.


My mom's point wasn't about Atheism so much as it was that just because someone claims that you should trust them because of religion... beware. If they were trustworthy, why are they trying to sell you so hard on it? I could think of many politicians that put their religious cred up as a reason to trust them... and we all know how well that works for them


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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 5:46:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The atheist says "This is all there is"


That's quite an assumption.

First, "all there is" is pretty damn impressive.

Second, why would a causal chain stop without a god in the equation?


It is also a huge assumption to think that all atheists think the same way. The wonderful thing about being an atheist is that no one tells you what you should think.

- LA

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 5:52:50 PM   
wittynamehere


Posts: 759
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Status: offline 		OP - Yeah, not really sure atheism is a "movement" to me. Just because I don't believe in something some other people made up, I've joined a movement? Odd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine
Why must people feel the need to identify with groups either religious or non religious?
Is there something wrong with being an American?


I dunno if that was an intentional joke, but it was pretty hilarious either way. :D


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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 5:53:48 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've never bought this notion that believing this time is all we'll ever have is a disincentive to try to treat people properly, put it that way. It's more of an incentive to try and stop people from wrecking the party for everybody else, not less.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

- LA

There's a lot of people with strong religious views who believe that doing all manner of abominable things to others is acceptable, because it's what God/Buddha/Kali/other wants. Atheists don't have that excuse, or a conviction that people are going somewhere better after they die, so there's more of an incentive for them to try to treat other people properly while they're still alive. Sorry that wasn't clear.


Much clearer. I would just be careful with generalising people with strong religious views. My mom is very devout catholic woman. That said, she is so absolutely peaceful and kind. She does everything she can to be the best person possible, live the best life possible and is extremely generous. And she doesn't do this because God tells her to. She does this because she likes to see the smiles on people's faces. She sees after life not as somewhere better but rather just the next natural step. She was the one who taught me when I was young not to treat this life as a dress rehearsal and to be the best that I can be. So atheism didn't teach me this. A woman of deep faith and devotion to her god did.

- LA

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 6:09:41 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: urineme

As an atheist who grew up in a prot.fundie (Southern Baptist) family, and who has done a little religious tourism, what I see happening is that others who call themselves "Atheist" take a religiously-intolerant stance, and "Take offense" at theists, of whatever ilk, celebrating their right to express their religious beliefs. (Religious symbology at holidays, etc.) NOTHING in of that nature is an imposition upon anyone TO believe. If what you want is to be allowed to be totally oblivious to the fact that others have theistic beliefs, it just isn't going to happen, so line up and get your high-colonic reality enema NOW! It takes two to make a fight out of things, so, if we don't start it, ...... Religion, or the lack thereof, is a right. Stand for your rights by all means, but don't attack the rights of others.

William

Like say, the right of a same sex couple to get married, William?
Sorry, but I get the impression that for every self righteous atheist who uses rationalism as an excuse to look down on believers, there's a couple of church groups hellbent on intefering in other people's business.
Everybody has a right to believe whatever they want. Nobody has any right to expect anybody who doesn't share those beliefs to humour them.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 6:14:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		The exception would be when someone claims and convinces others that God wants him to be president.

It then becomes a political issue, not strictly a matter of personal religious belief.

And I can think even theists can see why non-believers would be concerned when their leaders claim to take direction from this invisible, unprovable deity.

Actually, given the multiplicity of ways religious beliefs and interpretations are spun, you'd think theists would be alarmed too. Perhaps especially so.







< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/15/2010 6:16:44 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 6:16:37 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The exception would be when someone claims and convinces others that God wants him to be president.

It then becomes a political issue, not strictly a matter of personal religious belief.

And I can think even theists can see why non-believers would be concerned when their leaders claim to take direction from this invisible, unprovable deity.

Particularly when said leader insists that ceiling cat Himself wants them to declare war on another theocrat in a different country...

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 6:21:41 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy
Not believing in any gods is not a "stance".

I'd imagine it is possibly perceived that way by religious people who cannot understand not being a theist and feel threatened by the unknown.

93.4% of Atheists never bother to tell anyone they are.

Care to walk me through that, especially where you got the percentage? I get that babies are atheists without a stance because they have yet to be exposed to any sort of religion. But that isn't the case for the rest of us, we've been exposed to various religious claims and made a judgment as to their veracity, haven't we? Isn't that a stance?

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 7:02:42 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Now this is my God up in heaven entertaining the "Troops"; "I tell ya, I don't get no respect! I go into that site Collarme.com, you have to take two steps down to get into it, one step physically and one step socially!"
"Ok, lets welcome Buddy Hackett and Shecky Green to the stage!"
Hey Steven, maybe my God is Jewish!


Acts of God?

popeye, you're not unique.  Every single Christian has a Jewish God.


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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 7:03:11 PM   
Smutmonger


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Status: offline 		I'm the only god I'll ever need.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:31:49 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Hmm....this blogger couldn't possibly sound less like an atheist.
Why do you think that?  That's interesting because I don't see any statements that suggest he believes in the supernatural, which would suggest that there are actually other conditions needed in order for someone to "sound like an atheist".

I guess I've run across too many theists posing as atheists lately. His multiple posts being critical of atheists, his issue with Dawkins and his post "Why I am an atheist is possibly the same reason why you are a Christian or a person of faith of whatever kind" lead me to that conclusion. I've read more of his blog since then and well I was wrong.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:32:56 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown
I used to be an atheist, then I realized that it is just another religion.

Would you care to explain this?

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 8:34:08 PM   
Smutmonger


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Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		I'm more of an "apathist." I just don't care,until theists decide I need to be "saved" or some other absurdity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown
I used to be an atheist, then I realized that it is just another religion.

Would you care to explain this?


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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 9:09:56 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
I actually see a weaker moral compass with people who think they can "pray and be forgiven" than I do with non faith individuals.


See, that's what I'm talking about.  When people assume that if I believe in some sort of Diety that I must also believe in a "pray and be forgiven" philosophy.  Which I do not.  I personally want to bitch-slap the people who have the "Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven" bumper stickers. 

I think you're the one making the assumption. There's nothing in Smutmongers post which states that he's talking about all theists. It actually seems pretty clear that he's only talking about a sub-group of them. I've seen you take a similar stance a few times now and it's been wrong every time. For the most part we get that not every theist believes the same things, hell with the pot luck that's going on especially in this country, a theist can be a real unique snowflake.

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 9:20:19 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
The atheist says "This is all there is"

What is "this" suppose to be?

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RE: The Problem With Atheists - 3/15/2010 9:29:53 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
You are making the argument that anything can exist if we just believe it, regardless of lack of any proof.


That's what some people believe ... and there's no proof they're wrong.

Pirate

Of course there's proof of that statements inaccuracy. There are plenty of beliefs out there which are demonstrably wrong. For example it turns out that the earth isn't flat.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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