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classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 10:28:40 AM

LadyEllen

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8643553.stm

This case is running now - a teacher up on charges for attempted murder after being tormented for months by out of control kids who deliberately and intentionally provoked him.

I wonder how many of us would put up with it and not break at some point?

E

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 10:59:31 AM

kanina

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The classroom indiscipline has been a problem in Portugal as well, and bullying, i believe that mesures have to be taken, for the kids and teachers sack... Kids have to have limits...

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 10:59:54 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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The schools are a zoo tho. My old school now makes one go thru a metal detector. This was not the case when I was there. For every 1 minute of teaching 5 to get the class in order.

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Post #: 3

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 11:05:46 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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No sympathy for the teacher here. It was his responsibility to remove himself from the classroom when he felt his self-control slipping. Where did he get the dumbbell anyway? Because if he had it on him at the time of the attack that shows intent doesn't it?

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 11:10:34 AM

Rule

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Add a parent to each class. That will reduce disorder substantially and get the parents more involved with the school.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 11:19:38 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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We need to bring back corporal punishment.
When I was going to school we were too afraid to get out of line because the teachers would slap the shit out of you plus detention for an hour after school for a week and......when your parents got wind of it they'd beat the shit out of you! "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
Plus, my father was a Firefighter and the Cops would always hang out at the fire stations and if my father heard from the Cops that we were fucking up it'd be a real good beating!

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 11:55:38 AM

WolfeTone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We need to bring back corporal punishment.
When I was going to school we were too afraid to get out of line because the teachers would slap the shit out of you plus detention for an hour after school for a week and......when your parents got wind of it they'd beat the shit out of you! "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
Plus, my father was a Firefighter and the Cops would always hang out at the fire stations and if my father heard from the Cops that we were fucking up it'd be a real good beating!

Teachers weren't allowed to slap us, but my parents sure were. My mam would slap me blind if I pulled a stupid stunt, then would call my dad (they were divorced) and he would have me at his house, at his mercy. I learned to either stop acting like a twat, or to be smarter about it.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 12:04:32 PM

vincentML

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Couldn't disagree more, popeye. Institutional violence breeds resentment and more violence. "Slapping the shit" out of a kid is a pretty damn ugly thing for an adult to do.

Classroom discipline arises from mutual respect. The teacher who has respect for students earns their respect in return.

I have seen a few teachers snap. They are often under personal duress and do not know when the ticking bomb will go off. This poor fellow obviously acted inappropriately to the provocation. Would be interesting to know his psychiatric profile. He was sent down previously after informing school authorities he might harm someone. Would love to know the basis for assigning him to the class room again. Would also love to know what sort of administrative supervision and assistance was involved. I lay it on poor decisions and supervision by the administrators. That may not help Peter Harvey stand before the Crown however. Pity.

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Post #: 8

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 12:06:06 PM

servantforuse

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The inmates are running the asylum. Kids know that the teachers cannot lay a hand on then. If they do a call is made the the family attorney. If they cannot afford an attorney the ACLU is more than happy to step in and sue the school and or the teacher.

(in reply to WolfeTone)

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 12:10:41 PM

thishereboi

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Yes, I can understand snapping and maybe snatching the kid up by his short hairs and slapping him around a bit. But to take a 3lb weight and start bashing him in the head? NO.

But with any luck he will be put in a place where he won't have to be around kids any more. Then he won't have to worry about the stress and risk snapping again.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 12:13:33 PM

Phoenixpower

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Not much sympathy here either...at my relief work I am confronted with a lot of bad behaviour and know I can't act like that....it's about staying professional and if he can't do that anymore then he has to acknowledge it and has to change his job...seems he did not take his warning signs the year before serious enough...

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 12:14:57 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

"Slapping the shit" out of a kid is a pretty damn ugly thing for an adult to do.

Oh I don't know. I can remember the few times my mom slapped the shit out of me and I deserved it. Usually the threat was enough to keep us in line though. I think parents who don't teach their kids to behave and have respect for others are doing them a much bigger disservice than those who do.

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Post #: 12

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 2:07:52 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The inmates are running the asylum. Kids know that the teachers cannot lay a hand on then. If they do a call is made the the family attorney. If they cannot afford an attorney the ACLU is more than happy to step in and sue the school and or the teacher.

Yeah, the ACLU has a massive amount of influence in Nottingham, doesn't it?

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Post #: 13

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 2:20:35 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8643553.stm

This case is running now - a teacher up on charges for attempted murder after being tormented for months by out of control kids who deliberately and intentionally provoked him.

I wonder how many of us would put up with it and not break at some point?

E

Break by fracturing a child's skull with a 6 1/2 lb dumbbell?

No, I'm pretty sure that if those thoughts ever entered my mind I would realize I was not cut out to be a teacher and find a new job before I reached that breaking point.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 14

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 2:57:12 PM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Perhaps RML. But probably not.

Youve trained to be a teacher. If you leave or lose your job because you or others no longer think you suitable for it, thats game over pretty much here. There might be similar alternatives to switch to, but to be honest I would expect every teacher who could switch to them will have done so already, having gotten fed up of crowd control long since, leaving few if any such opportunities. That we have a massive shortfall in qualified teachers must also be taken into account - you might want to or need to leave, but everything will be done to see that you dont.

This situation with this pupil is not excusable of course. That is obvious. But how many other jobs are there available where an employer puts employees in such a situation and doesnt allow for such an outcome? Lets be clear, the job of many teachers nowadays is akin to that of police officers in terms of the behaviours and violence directed at them, only teachers lack any power to keep order.

The solution though is not to thrash these kids. Nor is it to expel them. The solution is to recognise that something like 75% of kids at this sort of age have nothing to gain from and no interest in the kind of education being delivered. Consequently they view school as irrelevant and a waste of their time, with nothing to do there but occupy their time with stupidity, including abusing teachers. The solution is to deliver practical training instead - the sort of skills we have allowed to disappear such that we have had to import plumbers, bricklayers, electricians etc and now, with the future supposedly set on a diverse economy, we lack utterly. The sort of occupational training that leads these kids to adult life and a productive occupation rather than flipping burgers, stacking shelves or collecting dole.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 3:03:17 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We need to bring back corporal punishment.

On old troll reactionaries like you? YEAH!

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 3:06:39 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Vincent, the kids these days are lucky!
Their teachers haxe sex with them!

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Post #: 17

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 3:13:28 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

The guy had the wrong job. A psyche eval would tell. But would it really ? I have been around a buch of unruly, even mean kids, though mostly younge than in the article, and I can tell you it takes a certain type of mental power to deal with it. Luckily I guess I can, because otherwise I would've throw the little MFs into a meat grinder and sold them for dogfood. So now we are talking about a buch of bigger kids, who could be just as mean. When I was in HS a tenth grader beat the livin shit out of a teacher. So if it is all you can muster is to be able to handle the little ones, think of doing it under the real threat of bodily harm.

Good teachers have my respect in spades. It takes a certain kind of individual to excel. Or really just to do well. If you REALLY have patience, it is permanent, not temporary. We hve heard from Parents on this very board about dealing with kids who were a big problem, or maladjusted or whatever. Their patience is unlimited. That's what a real teacher needs.

I can't swear that I am up to it. Good chance, but I can't say for sure.

t

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Post #: 18

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 3:14:57 PM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Perhaps RML. But probably not.

Youve trained to be a teacher. If you leave or lose your job because you or others no longer think you suitable for it, thats game over pretty much here. There might be similar alternatives to switch to, but to be honest I would expect every teacher who could switch to them will have done so already, having gotten fed up of crowd control long since, leaving few if any such opportunities. That we have a massive shortfall in qualified teachers must also be taken into account - you might want to or need to leave, but everything will be done to see that you dont.

This situation with this pupil is not excusable of course. That is obvious. But how many other jobs are there available where an employer puts employees in such a situation and doesnt allow for such an outcome? Lets be clear, the job of many teachers nowadays is akin to that of police officers in terms of the behaviours and violence directed at them, only teachers lack any power to keep order.

The solution though is not to thrash these kids. Nor is it to expel them. The solution is to recognise that something like 75% of kids at this sort of age have nothing to gain from and no interest in the kind of education being delivered. Consequently they view school as irrelevant and a waste of their time, with nothing to do there but occupy their time with stupidity, including abusing teachers. The solution is to deliver practical training instead - the sort of skills we have allowed to disappear such that we have had to import plumbers, bricklayers, electricians etc and now, with the future supposedly set on a diverse economy, we lack utterly. The sort of occupational training that leads these kids to adult life and a productive occupation rather than flipping burgers, stacking shelves or collecting dole.

E

Sadly, the Blairite emphasis on education was completely opposed to sending these kids off into apprenticeships. They're going to pass a few GCSEs however much the qualifications have to be devalued to let them do so. Great, isn't it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 19

RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 3:16:26 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8643553.stm

This case is running now - a teacher up on charges for attempted murder after being tormented for months by out of control kids who deliberately and intentionally provoked him.

I wonder how many of us would put up with it and not break at some point?

E

Break by fracturing a child's skull with a 6 1/2 lb dumbbell?

No, I'm pretty sure that if those thoughts ever entered my mind I would realize I was not cut out to be a teacher and find a new job before I reached that breaking point.

I did not see anything in the article that said Peter Harvey was tormented for months by out of control children, Lady Ellen. I must have missed it.

RML, do you think Mr Harvey was acting with rational thought? I don't think so. Maybe he did ask for leave. Maybe he thought he could cope. We don't know really. But do you think he thought this through and calmly said to himself, "I am going to beat this kid's head in with a dumb bell. Now where did I leave that bloody thing? I had it around here somewhere." I say the Administrators have much to answer for in this case.

As for those of you who advocate corporal punishment in the schools .... do you beat your dogs? How about your cats? Dogs and cats no but kids okay? And pray tell do you also advocate parental abuse of children? Where is the line between punishment and abuse anyway? And who is to judge?

And what in your imagination gives the State license to pummel any human being? Suppose a college classroom at a State University. Would you grant license to a college professor to discipline a student with a paddle or to slap the shit out of him? If not in a college with a student of age then why in a lower school with a child in development?

Don't children enjoy human rights? Or can they be physically punished because they are not quite human yet? You are reacting with emotion rather than reason I think.

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to rulemylife)

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