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RE: classroom discipline - 4/28/2010 5:56:57 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I believe school as it is is flawed right from the start, as it fails to perceive a child's natural abilities, but continues trying to hammer square pegs into round holes with the inevitablility that people become dissatisfied with what they are supposed to be, as it is unnatural to them.

Let's face it, there are people who are natural carers, natural mathemeticians, natural craftspeople, natural sportspeople, find what is natural to a person and then develop that path, as if someone finds what they do naturaly with ease, they might enjoy, demonstrating their natural skill and achieving the goals set, they are less likely to be unresponsive and troublesome.

I sometimes ask myself, why is it people have hobbies, things they devote a lot of time and money to outside of work, with some a hobby might be an extension of work, others, it might be something totally different, if so, why, could it be the hobbyist is another example of a square peg hammered into a round hole.

My belief is that behavioural difficulties stems from boredom, lack of focus and lack of self esteem, I just wonder what caused and is causing that, none other than an education system where a person is told to do, not invited to excel at what is natural to them.

Gang mentality, why do people congregate into gangs, combined protection, or similarity of issues, if the former, why, could this also be again lack of self esteem.

If self esteem is a governing factor in misbehaviour, then it needs to be re evaluated and the educators told what was the past is not the future.


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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: classroom discipline - 4/28/2010 6:24:30 AM   
MasterDonfromPA


Posts: 24
Joined: 12/26/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with those in this thread that think discipline is a Big problem today, I have often said if I had access to a time machine I would do the whole world a Huge favor and go back and shoot Dr Spock before he started this touch feelie, talk with, and reason with children shit, you can't appeal to a child's sense of morality and reason because as children they HAVE NONE, its the place of parents, teachers etc to teach it to them, and the pain of discipline  is How Nature meant for us to do that, it teaches children the most basic lesson that their actions and choices have consequences, and that follows all our lives, we obey laws because we fear the consequences of breaking the law,

I am not sure if anyone else loves the book as much as I do, But I highly recommend the book "Starship troopers" in the book, during a class in History and Moral Philosophy the teacher says this very thing, he describes the decline of civilization and the moral collapse of society in just these terms, (years before this all really happened) who says Jules Verne was the only forward looking author in history, He describes how there came a time when decent people were afraid to leave their homes after dark, and how wild Children terrorized society, and he describes how caning, spanking, and right down to public executions came BACK because society Needed those

Now I am not a huge proponent of public executions, But Imagine the impact it might have on these Kids that think the Shooter in a drive Is cool,  if they later have to stand and watch the shooter dance on the end of a rope Crapping his pants and urinating on Himself In front of a big crowd, Might give that little future killer a second thought wouldn't you think....

also And please if this doesn't apply take it personally, But In my opinion its getting even worse because of the current  laziness of a lot of parents, I was sitting once in a restaurant and a kids about 4 or 5 was throwing food, and the Mother saw this and was just ignoring it.... Now why do they expect anyone else should be forced to endure this from their child.... Insanity

we all need to remember "Parent" is not just a noun its also a verb.. you have to actively Parent your child... now some Kids are just a bad seed, But when 48 kids out of a class of 50 are little horrors in the classroom, that's not a bad seed its an Unparented child and the blame needs to be placed solidly where it belongs, at the feet of the parent,

and No I do not put faith in the Broken Home or environment shaping the child, that's crap, ....


I don't agree with the teachers loss of self control in this case However there is no reason to say its the teachers job to teach those little monsters discipline or responsible behavior when the parents have never taught the kid basic respect, and there's a big part of the core problem, respect, respect for yourself, respect for your environment and respect for Others trying to live their lives, do their jobs and  keep up their property

I think that respect is fast slipping away and its often most visible and observed  within this lifestyle, (however that can go back to my reference on consequences, a subbie shows respect because lack of it can lead to consequences) and I also take special note of the larger numbers of younger subs appearing in this lifestyle, Because they crave the discipline and structure that's far too often lacking in their normal lives

I know this was a bit of a long winded rant But hey, its a forum and I can have My opinions too LOL

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: classroom discipline - 4/28/2010 7:20:57 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		FR
I'm just confused how people on a forum that rave about consent think it's ok to abuse a child.  Meh.
The moment you have to raise a hand, you have already lost the battle.  All it matters is time.
But then, I don't have a punishment dynamic anyway.  Master has authority.  He doesn't have authority because he lashes out or gives me a 'clip round the ear' if I ever fell out of line.  Authority doesn't have to exist with physical abuse, that's just fear, not authority.

the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: classroom discipline - 4/28/2010 8:02:31 AM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I logged back on to add this.
I do feel the entire public school system needs a major over-haul.
 
I do agree with vincent, that a really caring, good, and STRONG Administration
can make a major difference in a school!
 
Look at principals like Joe Clarke!
Joe Clarke rocks !
We need more Joe Clarkes, ex-marines, ex-police officers, and ex-drill sargeants in the schools!
 Joe Clark - Biography
 
Lean on Me (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

We do hope things work out for you MOS, you sound like marvelous and dedicated educator.


Yes you are partially right in that the system does need to be revamped though it has to happen with the parents right up to the administration. I've read this entire thread and yea the public school system here in Canada has many of the same problems with the school system in the US.

The teachers are doing their best to give each student a decent education yet when it comes to maintaining authority and order in the classroom, it is nearly impossible. Much of that can be traced back to the laws which have been put into place over the years regarding laws for juveniles. These laws have become too lenient for offenders and the majority of the offenders are given a slap on the wrist and sent on their merry way. With the concern for the prevention of child abuse, this has made it impossible for a teacher to discipline an unruly student and they know this and take advantage of the fact. A teacher is not allowed to even slap a student on the hand without fear of being charged with assault. It is a common thing to see a gang of students in the far corner engaging in drug deals and do so without fear of harassment. Case in point 2 months ago at one of the local schools, a case of bullying quickly got out of hand when a 16 yr old plus 2 of his buddies and his father drove to the school and the father went after the harassed student with a baseball bat, he is now facing several charges along with h his son, the battered student is still in the hospital.

Another major issue is a large portion of parents either are too busy working or they don't give a damn about what their offspring are doing in school and out of school. Their attitude is my kid is uncontrollable and let the school deal with them, they're being paid to teach my kid so it's their responsibility. I really have a lot of sympathy for teachers who have to deal with this attitude from the students parents with attitudes like that. Granted I understand that parents do the best they can, it's the ones who done even bother that contribute to the problem.

So yes, the educational system needs a long overdue overhaul. I know many people are very concerned over the potentail abuse of discipline in the schools, yet there was a time when it was just the idea of being punished kept us unruly students in line without a ruler being smacked across our hand. There has to be a compromise between having some leniency and a healthy measure of discipline in the schools to keep both parents and teachers happy.


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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: classroom discipline - 4/28/2010 8:22:01 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"think it's ok to abuse a child"

Not sure of everyone's intent here but I said "Respond in kind".

IMO, your statement that as soon as you raise your hand you've lost that battle would be entirely true, except you missed one word. That word is "first".

T

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: classroom discipline - 4/28/2010 9:11:02 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		But you believe in dishing out payback as you have said before.  That's not 'in kind', that's just eye for an eye.
Makes the whole world blind yanno...(apparently)

the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 8:57:14 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		So it is adult and the right thing to do to allow assault and battery to one's person ? By the same token should I also allow people to just kill me, take what I own, rape my family and just basically do what they want ?

Any retaliation or retribution is abuse ? Well then don't call the law either, you know what kind of environment that nasty government are going to put those punk in. They might get hurt in there, the poor things they might run into someone who is a bit tougher than they. And heavens forbid that they EVER learn the folly of "might makes right" in such a brutal manner. No it is their privedge to assert that might makes right exclusively, or wait, that means all of them. Right ?

Because at 17 years old, 6'6" and 250 lbs., only able to bench press 440 lbs. they are surely oppressed. They wouldn't harm a flea, but they'll rape and rob you. But as long as they respect the flea it's OK.

Sorry, that kind of thinking hasn't been working for the last thirty years and it is unlikely to magically start working now. To not teach the harshness of reality is every bit as immoral as true abuse. Abuse is a different matter. And that means from either side of the apple on the desk.

I believe the difference is in the intent. If the intent is to correct and not abuse, then the action should be well thought out, unless there is a really imminent danger. I said in kind. Consequences teach and it is the only way some can learn. The lack of consequences can result in,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ummm, exactly what we are talking about.

T


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 9:14:30 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
So it is adult and the right thing to do to allow assault and battery to one's person ? By the same token should I also allow people to just kill me, take what I own, rape my family and just basically do what they want ?


That ISNT what you said on that other thread and you know it Termy.  You indicated that if someone did something to you that you would supprot retribution regardless.  The above is defense.  Two TOTALLY different things.

But the fact remains is that everyones jumping on this being about discipline.  Soooo easy.  It's got nothing to do with discipline.  The fact is that the man in question should NOT have been teaching.  He was mentally unstable and he - as well as the students and the parents of that school - have been let down by the authorities.  Did anyone read that article?  Does anyone even know the history of this case?

The man had a mental breakdown at that moment.  He'd been off with it before.  He may have been a lovely man when well, but that isn't the point.  He should not have been in a position of authority in his mental state.

One of the non threatening students who told him that he was behaving stangely was told he was going to kill her.  He kicked another female student and made her cry.  He beat a boy over the head with a dumbell - But it's the students who are at fault?

No, the only people who are at fault are those who put him in that environment in his state at that time.  The put at risk the students and the teacher.

We aren't talking 'yay for the teacher' here.  We are talking about a disproportionate response caused by mental illness.

the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 9:33:02 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Gonna toss this out.. and its not gonna be popular. How soon do you believe this situation will occur in that school again?

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 10:15:55 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		As long as they don't employ people with mental illness and put them in the wrong positions, never.
Nottingham is a lovely place and Masters home town - I would hazzard it's not indictive of the school or the area, but the education authorities stupidity.

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 10:18:59 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Just an update - hes been cleared of attempted murder. (Didn't want to put that on the other post and ignore tazzy).

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 4/29/2010 10:20:17 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 10:22:11 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		I just read the verdict on the BBC news - seems the judge and the jury understood what this man went through.

A very sensible verdict, I feel.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 10:27:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

I just read the verdict on the BBC news - seems the judge and the jury understood what this man went through.

A very sensible verdict, I feel.


Really?  Even though there is no condemnation of him being permitted back even when his councillor suggested he was too 'passive and calm'?  If he wasn't mentally capable of making the correct choice to go back, then someone else should have stood up for him.  He has been let down, and the parents of the school have been too.

the.dark.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 3:45:26 PM   
SohCahToa


Posts: 563
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		Probably he shouldn't be allowed back to teach ever because it'll just happen again.

The lack of sentence reflects the time spent on remand I suppose.

Although that nutty teaching unions sees it as a justification for their belief that it's ok to hit students around the head with a weight as long as you are being provoked in a stressful situation.


< Message edited by SohCahToa -- 4/29/2010 3:47:50 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 4:04:34 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

As long as they don't employ people with mental illness and put them in the wrong positions, never.
Nottingham is a lovely place and Masters home town - I would hazzard it's not indictive of the school or the area, but the education authorities stupidity.

the.dark.


Are you saying the kids are totally innocent in this?


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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 4:16:32 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

As long as they don't employ people with mental illness and put them in the wrong positions, never.
Nottingham is a lovely place and Masters home town - I would hazzard it's not indictive of the school or the area, but the education authorities stupidity.

the.dark.


Are you saying the kids are totally innocent in this?



No, dark is saying the school placed the teacher in the wrong position. Whatever the kids may have done, the teacher is guilty of Grevious Bodily Harm ( GBH ) He should have been trained not to over react, especially to this degree. The fact he shouted "Die die die" indicates he had some sort of mental health problem.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 7:00:54 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Schools don't want to expel kids. They get paid per head. The less students they have, the less money they get from the state.


The money is allocated by the State based upon the enrollment of students on a date certain at the beginning of the school year. Lack of expulsion has nothing to do with finances as you think. Has more to do with the extention of student Constitutional rights in the classroom. Tinker v Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969)

In Tinker, the Supreme Court said that students "do not shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." The court ruled that Iowa public school officials violated the First Amendment rights of several students by suspending them for wearing black armbands to school.

The court noted that the students’ wearing of armbands to protest U.S. involvement in Vietnam was a form of symbolic speech "akin to pure speech." The school officials tried to justify their actions, saying that the armbands would disrupt the school environment.

This was a landmark case. There were others that followed expanding on student rights and delineating what the School could require.

Those of you advocating a return to Authoritarian rule in the Schools (USA) just do not know what the fuck you are talking about. Those days are gone and probably only existed in your own delusional minds anyway. There have always been "bad" kids.

Compulsory education was established to take the newpaper boys of the 19th and early 20th Century off the streets and help them get a leg up. You are painting a portrait of students that exists only in bad movies. Yes, there are thugs. But the great majority are polite and loving children.

I was particularly annoyed by this quote from Wolf2Bear:

quote:

It is a common thing to see a gang of students in the far corner engaging in drug deals and do so without fear of harassment.


Really? A common thing? You can document this?

What utter fucking nonesense. Schools get a bad rep in part because people like you spread such malicious falsities.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 8:14:05 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		MOS, you have my sincerest sympathies. I hope you continue your career as an educator and only good things happen in your life hereafter.

Marini, you are right of course. The dead fish stinks from the head down. It is not just local building Administrators who fear for their careers and take the easy way out and so fail to support teachers. The problem begins at the very top of the chain of command with the elected School Board and Central District Administrators they appoint. I am speaking here only from my knowledge and experience with the Miami school district. Citizens would vomit if they had any idea of the viscious politics that go on amonst adult personel jockying for ass-kissing rights in the authoritarian hierarchy that makes up a major city school system. Everybody (most) is covering their ass so as not to jeapordise their positions.

To be somewhat fair to Administrators and Supervisors their task has been made more difficult by the rulings of SCOTUS which have held that students like all adult citizens enjoy 14th Amendment Due Process and Equal Protection of the Law. This means they must be notified of the acceptable rules of behavior and the consequences of violation of those rules. And they must be provided a hearing before punishment.

What does that mean? It means Administrators must give notice and establish procedures. They can't simply pull a kid into an office and beat him/her with a wooden stick no more than a police officer can walk up to you on the street and begin beating you without cause. In America citizens are protected from arbitrary power of the State. The School is an arm of the State. As I quoted the Tinker case above, students "do not shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Nor do they shed their rights to due process and equal protection.

Those of you who advocate physical violence against children are not only guilty of immoral thinking but are ignorant of the Law in the USA. Please, go back into your caves and read a little before you come out with your dumbass opinions.

Let me say again, the good old days of strict discipline are figments of your delusional imagination. There were always "problem" kids in schools. Go take a look at some old movies from the thirties....James Cagney's White Heat or Public Enemy, I forget which, tough kids off the streets growing up to be gangsters. There were dozens of morality plays at the movies with similar themes. As recent as West Side Story and To Sir With Love to try to name just a few off the top of my head. It is not a new theme.

We are a bigger and more complicated society today. This aint Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Your bucolic visions of the good old days are just nonsense. I get a little sick when I read your totalitarian rants. Sorry, but that's how I feel reading through this thread. I hope Mr Peter Harvey finds some peace and the kid who was hit can find forgiveness in his heart.



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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 8:17:06 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDonfromPA

I agree with those in this thread that think discipline is a Big problem today, I have often said if I had access to a time machine I would do the whole world a Huge favor and go back and shoot Dr Spock before he started this touch feelie, talk with, and reason with children shit,



You may want to reread Dr. Spock.  He never said to not discipline.  I heard that Normal Vincent Peale said that about him, and it stuck, but there is no factual basis for it.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: classroom discipline - 4/29/2010 8:38:48 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		vincent, thank you for writing a well written and informative post!
You are spot on as usual.
I hope to live long enough to see major changes in the school system.

I would love to see something like a Montessori or Lowell school approach across the board.
I would love to see a focus on {social emotional development, exposure to the creative arts, cooking, budgeting, physical fitness, citizenship, life skills, etc.}, and not only an emphasis on test scores and academics.

I have always felt that many of the best and brightest children, turn to anti-social behaviors, crime, drugs, etc., because there is so little emphasis on their social/emotional and pyschological development during the many years that they attend school.

For many children/young people the "school system" is the only thing standing in the gap between very dysfunctional homes and the real world.
Many children are not getting the support they need at home, and if it is not provided at school, we can all imagine the possibilities.

As far as I am concerned there is a  large number of children and young people that need immediate intensive and comprehensive behavioral and psychological interventions before you even consider academics.

You could combine many of the programs/interventions I have suggested along with some vocational training/work study programs and maybe some students NEED to be a system like that until they are 20 or so.
Sure, it would cost more money, and we are always concerned about money.

But last time I checked every inmate in prison costs taxpayers at least 50K a year.
I would rather more of my taxes be spent on education during the formative years, than paying for incarcerations, public defenders, and creating a growing population that will be dependent on government assistance most of their lives, because they are not capable of working or being  productive tax paying citizens.

We always pay one way or another.

Like Martin Luther King said, I had a dream! 

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/29/2010 9:38:00 PM >

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Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 100
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