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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 4:22:53 PM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

you just cant snap when you work around kids....coming to work every day with amnesia is what has made me be able to do it, and to really really love the job.

I TOTALLY agree, you can't snap!
I just understand, why he did.


every kid gets a clean slate with me every day.....and they love me and they dont ever wanna see me go psycho lunchlady.....even though it has never happened, it is like a legend, and it works for me-lol

this dude seemed to be the type who woulda nutted up where ever he worked though.  at least to me.


Do you happen to work in an urban environment, I am curious?
not urban i guess, metro atlanta.....mixed with more of the lower socio economic families in the area i work in.  high transient rate.  and i love it...i love these babies for as long as i can.

just today, we were talking about how each time we hear about a teacher being fired for duct taping a kid to a chair, we think man i feel their pain.

but that still does not make it acceptable....he should have not been allowed back in the classroom, imho. someone who can not exert more self control has no reason working around kids....even smartass mouthy kids....


Read my post above.
The man had a nervous breakdown.
 
I will never forget a Principal once told us that if we ever hit a student, keep your arms swinging in the air, make sure you do NOT stop swinging, until the ambulance comes to get you.

Just don't stop swinging, until they stop you, cause you have surely lost your mind.
lol

< Message edited by Marini -- 4/26/2010 4:30:46 PM >

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Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 4:28:09 PM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Perhaps RML. But probably not.

Youve trained to be a teacher. If you leave or lose your job because you or others no longer think you suitable for it, thats game over pretty much here.


Well...apart from the new campaign to get teachers into social worker positions to balance out the lack of staff there

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 6:08:47 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

Perhaps a different approach is needed.

"Good day, I am Mr. Termy and I'll be your math techer this semester. Now anyone who wants to cause trouble can leave now, you get a zero for the day but will not be repoted absent because you were there for roll call. Anyone who does not want to learn can get the fuck outta here and go smoke whatever you want to smoke. If you want to play the game and try to threaten me in any way, my people will find you out on the street and you will not be safe, nor will you bicycles, cars or whatever else you have. And if you keep the shit up your family will pay dearly. YOU WILL NOT CHEAT OTHERS OUT OF AN EDUCATION, if you don't want it leave now, because it is the safest thing to do. I'll give you five minutes to decide. If you stay this is MY platground and what I say goes, get it ? Got it, good."

Authority. Go ahead and believe that you can take financial advice on what to do with your hard earned money from a bum on welfare. Go ahead and take martial arts lessons from a Dojo you can defeat. Go ahead and learn to drive from someone who has had three accidents a month. Go ahead and take legal advice from someone in jail.

Get the point ? Now we are talking young adults full of cum, as well as pith and vinegar, who don't have much in the way of brains or restraint. I defy anyone who can't or won't prove their superiority to me, to my satisfaction. In other words even if you can kick my ass physically, that doesn't mean you are qualified to do my taxes. But that is not all of it. You need to get their attention. One ring of the cell, show them the bucket of water the very first day and show them what it is for. As a leader you turn your's off as well. This is our time. I'll respect that and if you can't you can go out there with the heads or the gangstas and your greatest career amition will be in fast food. Go, go now.

Somewhat like tough love, at least how it is described.

T

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 7:13:15 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Jesus Christ on a bicycle, T, that is the worst possible approach I could imagine for an opening day speech. You immediately create a hostile environment and invite challenges. In Florida we were not allowed to put students out of the class room. Tell them to get out and you are liable for whatever they do next because you have relinquished your duty of supervision. Deriliction of duty pure and simple. You would not last the week in my school.

What worked for me was to respect the students, to extend them some humanity, to get to know them personally and to let them know I wanted them to succeed. That worked for me for thirty years.

You are right, Marina, the guy had a breakdown pure and simple. * vincent waves back * I saw it coming with a guy in my Department. We were able to intervene before he hurt anyone. It is tragic especially for an experienced teacher in his later years.

I agree with whoever said the kid with the meter stick did not merit being chased around the room and certainly did not merit being attacked. Evidently it was a chemistry lab so the teacher had a duty to protect the other students. Not witnessing the event I can't say for sure but from the sketchy details I don't think the victim was a danger to anyone. The proper reaction would have been to send someone for an adminstrator if the boy was perceived to be a threat and even clear the room if necessary. Proper if the teacher were not crumbling in his mind. I will tell you chemistry labs can be chaotic ... i had a girl's well lacquered hair go up in flames once .... but with everyone else in their seats one kid playing the fool is not an imminent threat. More probably if the teacher had mutual respect with the class, peer pressure would be enough to stop the attention seeking behavior. Students have a way of rallying around their teacher. Love, compassion, and respect are the best avenues for good classroom discipline. Sorry, i am just old fashioned that way.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 7:15:58 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Having worked as an educator, they won't let you do that until college level, Term. As for this teacher, there is no excuse.

And, yes, I swat my dogs when they need it. I don't beat them, I swat them once or maybe twice until they stop aggressive behavior which is the only thing that earns them a swat. I suppose I could try to use psychology on my little pit bulls to keep them from attacking something that has them freaked out but they don't understand psychology. And its a bitch trying to get them to lay down on those little couches. I could do nothing and hope they don't lash out at someone or something. Nope. I will continue to be in charge and not let the dogs rule the house. The fact is, after a few swattings, I no longer have to touch them. They stop as soon as I raise my voice. If they should ignore that and I think they might lash out at someone or even at each other (they are sisters) ...SWAT. Back in line.



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RE: classroom discipline - 4/26/2010 11:39:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Jesus Christ on a bicycle, T, that is the worst possible approach I could imagine for an opening day speech. You immediately create a hostile environment and invite challenges. In Florida we were not allowed to put students out of the class room. Tell them to get out and you are liable for whatever they do next because you have relinquished your duty of supervision. Deriliction of duty pure and simple. You would not last the week in my school.

What worked for me was to respect the students, to extend them some humanity, to get to know them personally and to let them know I wanted them to succeed. That worked for me for thirty years.

You are right, Marina, the guy had a breakdown pure and simple. * vincent waves back * I saw it coming with a guy in my Department. We were able to intervene before he hurt anyone. It is tragic especially for an experienced teacher in his later years.

I agree with whoever said the kid with the meter stick did not merit being chased around the room and certainly did not merit being attacked. Evidently it was a chemistry lab so the teacher had a duty to protect the other students. Not witnessing the event I can't say for sure but from the sketchy details I don't think the victim was a danger to anyone. The proper reaction would have been to send someone for an adminstrator if the boy was perceived to be a threat and even clear the room if necessary. Proper if the teacher were not crumbling in his mind. I will tell you chemistry labs can be chaotic ... i had a girl's well lacquered hair go up in flames once .... but with everyone else in their seats one kid playing the fool is not an imminent threat. More probably if the teacher had mutual respect with the class, peer pressure would be enough to stop the attention seeking behavior. Students have a way of rallying around their teacher. Love, compassion, and respect are the best avenues for good classroom discipline. Sorry, i am just old fashioned that way.


What the teacher did was wrong. No two ways about it. But...

What happened to accountability? Of both the parents and the children? Some of these poor darlings will kill you as soon as they look at you. Others are there because mom/dad threatened them with abuse. A small percentage is there to learn... and they arent learning. Small wonder why our educational system is so fucked up. Teachers are playing wardon to a bunch of hooligans and brats with no support, their hands tied, told to shut up and just "teach" by the administration. By parents they are told to mind their own fucking business. I admire any teacher who can stand in those trenches day after day. And i, personally, find it deplorable that they are given nothing but grief from both sides.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 1:11:08 AM   
crazyml


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< Message edited by crazyml -- 4/27/2010 1:18:03 AM >

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 1:14:11 AM   
crazyml


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< Message edited by crazyml -- 4/27/2010 1:17:38 AM >

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 1:53:49 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The high school I went to was pretty rough, well stocked with the upcoming generation of neer do wells, petty criminals and armed robbers. But we were streamed according to ability - as one might expect, I was in the top class of the top stream; the only student there whose parents were not 4-bed detached, prestige German car middle class.

Now, one might have expected a good standard of discipline and behaviour from these other students in my class, if its all about abusive households, poor environments and being at the lower end of the social stratum that promotes the opposite. But no. What I found was that these classmates of mine were, if anything, far worse than those elsewhere in the school who by now, some 25 years later, have made various appearances in the crime reports.

For when it came to bullying others and abusing the staff, it was their very intelligence and their understanding of psychology, alongside their presumed nature, that made them the best at it. I suffered through years of it, what with being quiet and unassuming and lacking the financial means they had access to through their parents to do this or that, wear this or that, go here or there.

But their crowning glory was the physics teacher - a highly intelligent and well qualified man who had been teaching for about 20 years when this lot came along. They planned, that is deliberately and knowingly set out to give him a nervous breakdown, and executed this plan purposively and in concert - because it would be "funny". And they succeeded. One day he refused to come into the class and could be seen weeping in the next door preparation room. When the lab assistant came into the room to tell us she'd be taking the lesson that day - there was no one else after all - they laughed, knowing that they had achieved their aim. He was off work for several months then, and then retired, aged I would guess about my age now, 25 years early, in 1983.

They all passed physics. They all later got their university degrees. And now theyre all, like their parents before them 4-bed detached, prestige German car middle class.

E

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 3:00:56 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"Jesus Christ on a bicycle, T, that is the worst possible approach I could imagine for an opening day speech"

Possibly. Maybe figure it was tailored for students who are alreaady proven problems, tough cases. I would much rather teach in an environment in which the students had a real desire to be there and learn. But universal mandatory education does not allow for the necessry exclusions.

You've got kids in there who were abused, not taugh one single wit and hate the world in general. Many are forced to be there by threats from their Parents, as well as truant officers and the police.

In a "normal" environment I am aware that the approach of authority by threat is a bad one, but this thread is not about that. This guy probably wouldn't have "cracked" in a "normal" environment unless we consider an unruly mob of teenagers dumb and full of cum a normal environment. I don't.

I have always been against compulsory education. Those who do not want to be there should be gone. I have always believed that the primary responsibility for education of the young lies with the Parents. But then I am different. My Parents would've shot themselves if they had to send me out to kindergarden not knowing how to read and understanding numbers at least in the rudimentary sense.

Nowadays the deck is stacked against the teachers. Even I outwitted them when it suited me, and I went to school when I damn well pleased and only to the classes I damn well pleased. Other than math and science, that included any class Valerie was in.

With the problem kids one has to establish order to get the job done. Of all the things I did I hardly ever disrupted the classroom, whether I wanted to be there or not. The olman would kill me for shit like that. That is where the Parents come in. You are expected to do a job, to do it properly the Parent must supply you with the proper material. If not you have to make due with what you have. And extreme situations sometimes call for extreme measures.

And call me a barbarian if you wish, but a nice paddle with holes in it is much preferable to drugs like ritalin. Mind you it is not to be used in anger, that would be misuse.

And later in life the same applies. As schools, especially inner city schools become more like prisons, some adaptation is needed. In the case of prisons, I think the sentences should be greatly reduced but the conditions should be more harsh, Labor, and you have no time to find fuck buddies, make homemade hootch, nothuing of the sort. But instead of like my buddy who did twenty years and not only went in with money, won a decent size lawsuit against the institution and lived pretty well in there, they could've given him five years of some pretty harsh treatment resulting in possibly more corrective influence. I asked (times were tough) just how much would he just rather go back to the joint and he said about 60%. I could change that had I the power to do so. Recidivism would be quite low.

Same here, reading and writing and rithmatic, taught to the tune of a hickory stick. Not quite what I have in mind but close. They are there to learn, this is not a fucking day care center. Age must be accounted for and of course you do not expect the same level of civilisation from some. But that does not mean there are no expectations.

I do understand your point, but did Socrates have to carry a sword ? I doubt it and would almost bet that if trouble came around his students would defend him. They would not be the enemy.

In the old days, if a kid got the paddle and sent home with a note, they would get it again at home. The Parents' attitude was that "Those are the rules there and you will obey them". Nowadays there are lawsuits and all kinds of horseshit. It is ridiculous.

Even without a threat of physical consequences, if they don't want to learn they should be removed from the environment so that those who want to learn can take advantage of the system we pay for to teach them.

T

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 4:29:18 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
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Status: offline 		Homeschool everyone. That will solve it.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 5:00:09 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Homeschool everyone. That will solve it. "

I agree, but do you have any idea what it takes to do that effectively ? Not everyone can do it. Add to that the fact that many Parents simply are not qualified to do it. If I did it I think I would have to stop somewhere around grade 6, because I am 49 and so many things have changed. You need to prepare them for their life, not your's.

T

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 5:11:30 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
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Status: offline 		Wait, are you not a teabagger? Homeschooling is the perfect teabag solution. Cut everyones taxes to the amount provided for per student funding then everyone is on an even playing field and can School their children as they see fit. Those that want to can pay additional monies for their children to go to "schools" for additional learning. Sound at all equitable?

Teabaggers should love it since it is what the founding fathers wanted. There is no provision for Education in the Constitution.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 5:28:58 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		There's no amendment controlling the use of dumbbells, either, though...

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 5:44:09 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hell when i was a kid, i was more afraid of my mom (and she never laid a hand on me or my brother) than i was of any teacher which meant i had better watch my p's and q's at school lest mom heard about it.

I am curious where the dumbell came from, because dumbells aren't usual decor in a hallway.

This guy lost it. It doesn't make it right. I am surprised he isn't arguing diminished capacity. But the schools have got to do something -- which means that the parents have to do something, which means the community has to do something because to do anything, they will need funds. What ever happened to when a kid is disruptive in class or breaks some school rule you send them down to the principal or the dean?

For those who were speaking about corporal punishment, there is a town in Texas that just brought it back and the school said that since its been implemented they have only had to apply it once but the overall behavior of students has GREATLY improved. And it also indicated that 20 states still allow corporal punishment here in the U.S., there are just many that don't utilize the ability.

http://www.newser.com/story/86204/texas-towns-schools-bring-back-the-paddle.html

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 12:51:06 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

In a "normal" environment I am aware that the approach of authority by threat is a bad one, but this thread is not about that. This guy probably wouldn't have "cracked" in a "normal" environment unless we consider an unruly mob of teenagers dumb and full of cum a normal environment. I don't.


There is nothing in the story to suggest this was not a normal environment, Termy. This teacher was either mentally distraught or ill-equipped to manage a classroom. In either case, supervisors have a responsibility.

quote:

I have always been against compulsory education. Those who do not want to be there should be gone. I have always believed that the primary responsibility for education of the young lies with the Parents.


That may be true for the young but it is a difficult and very middle class proposition. Ozzie and Harriet are long gone. Most families, I think, require both parents at work, and so we have the phenomenon of "latch-key kids." Many homes do not offer book-enrichment for children because single parent families can barely manage to acquire food and clothing. This would be a great reach-out program for communities.

One function of compulsory educaton is to keep kids off the streets during the day and away from creating mischief in the neighborhood. You may not like that but it is an important dimension of the school system. And it is also important to show kids that other opportunities exist besides gangs and drugs.


E
quote:

Nowadays the deck is stacked against the teachers.


If so, it is a function of the change in family stucture and workforce structure. So, the classroom teacher learns and adopts suitable strategies.

quote:

With the problem kids one has to establish order to get the job done. <SNIP>
And call me a barbarian if you wish, but a nice paddle with holes in it is much preferable to drugs like ritalin. Mind you it is not to be used in anger, that would be misuse.


Institutional violence reinforces individual violence. You are sending a message that it is okay to strike someone. Especially, you are sending the message that the State has the license to batter individual citizens. The immediate result is compulsory attendence and physical punishment. The long term result is seething resentment.

Students who show repeated offense are counselled and if necessary removed by a staff counsellor to a monitored classroom set aside for the specific purpose of in-school suspension.

The Authoritarian approach simply does not work in a world where individual freedom and human rights are paramount values. Many successful teachers develop a workable management style. Classroom management is like sports team management is like business team management. The manager has to get his team to buy into the goal of the project and encourage each individual to believe he/she has an important role to play and that they have the ability to be successful. And the manager is part of the team not a threatening power figure.

Now, I am not saying it is easy but it sure as hell was a lot of fun. Humour and anticipation are all part of the mix.

quote:

And later in life the same applies. As schools, especially inner city schools become more like prisons, some adaptation is needed.


My experience was that inner city schools became prisons to protect the students from marauding outsiders.

quote:

In the case of prisons, I think the sentences should be greatly reduced but the conditions should be more harsh, Labor, and you have no time to find fuck buddies, make homemade hootch, nothuing of the sort.


This was tried and eventually failed. It was called The Pennsylvania System. It was one of the things that Alexis de Tocqueville came to the States to study in the 19th Century. Old ideas for the 21st Century. Bad back then; bad now.


quote:

In the old days, if a kid got the paddle and sent home with a note, they would get it again at home. The Parents' attitude was that "Those are the rules there and you will obey them". Nowadays there are lawsuits and all kinds of horseshit. It is ridiculous.


That was then; this is now. Deal with it, teach, or move on. There are many dedicated teachers who have found success and enjoyed their jobs.



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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 12:54:46 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We need to bring back corporal punishment.
When I was going to school we were too afraid to get out of line because the teachers would slap the shit out of you plus detention for an hour after school for a week and......when your parents got wind of it they'd beat the shit out of you! "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
Plus, my father was a Firefighter and the Cops would always hang out at the fire stations and if my father heard from the Cops that we were fucking up it'd be a real good beating!


Therapists everywhere thank you for their job security.

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RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 12:55:54 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		That is a sad story, Lady Ellen, and I suspect it has happened more than once. Again, to my mind this was a failure of School Supervision. That Physics teacher should have had some assistance.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 12:57:44 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We need to bring back corporal punishment.
When I was going to school we were too afraid to get out of line because the teachers would slap the shit out of you plus detention for an hour after school for a week and......when your parents got wind of it they'd beat the shit out of you! "Spare the rod, spoil the child."
Plus, my father was a Firefighter and the Cops would always hang out at the fire stations and if my father heard from the Cops that we were fucking up it'd be a real good beating!


Therapists everywhere thank you for their job security.


well said, sunshinemiss.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: classroom discipline - 4/27/2010 1:00:57 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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As long as it has not, I think when we talk about corporal punishment, and we have to think about our own children, and we are rather reluctant, it seems to me, to have other people administering punishment to our own children, because we are reluctant, it puts a special obligation on us to maintain order and to send children out from our homes who accept the idea of discipline. So I would not be for corporal punishment in the school, but I would be for very strong discipline at home so we don't place an unfair burden on our teachers.
 
JFK


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