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RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 2:26:46 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

The word liberty is not a right ... it is something that is earned. And careless statements ... do hurt others and imflame passions. When there is no reason too.

I'd say there is a reason to. The point of this isn't to poke fun at Mohammed, but to make a statement about those who threaten violence if their religion is criticized. For valid reason, or just for lulz.

Hmmmm......then why not just put forward a reasoned argument arguing against the excesses of religious fundamentalism....it seems to me that that would be the reasonable thing to do.

But of course we know that pictures of Mohammed are guaranteed to piss off a lot of people.

Were I being cynical....I would say that the objective is provocation...in order to generate a response....so people can then say: "told you so...look at 'em....they're all lunatics!"

I would have thought the mature thing to do would be to give people a bit of space.....and if you don't like religious fundamentalism....then argue your case rather than provoke.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 41

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 4:22:31 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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Interesting that the source of the provocation in this case comes from within fortress America, I get the impression that some US citizens believe the good 'ole US of A is so well protected that they can say and do what they wish to offend others without fear of retribution. But as has been seen around the world, other people of the nation that permitted the insult to occur often feel the anger when outside of fortress America.

Why do you endanger your own people ?

But Islam, as I understand it, it is an offshoot of Christianity, a religious sect that took a different path, and with that part of the christianity package.

At one time it was Roman Catholic Christians persecuting Protestant Christians and vice versa, Then it was Catholic Christians persecuting Muslims and vice versa, somewhere in that it was both Christian sects persecuting Jews and now we have instances of Jews persecuting Muslims and vice versa. What is the common factor in all this ?

Quite simply; God and interpretation of what God is.

All those sects, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Muslim all came from the same source, you are in effect the same in your belief, except that as history has shown, you still war over whose interpretation is the correct one.

I wonder if the rest of the world, you know, the believers of other religions, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist and others beliefs where the (Hebrew?) God is not the source of their belief are thinking, FFS, give the world a break, there are others in this world too, and they deserve a bit of peace and quiet, a reprieve from the constant waste that has been going on for at least the last 2000 years.

It is interesting though, for a god that was supposed to come to save the people, an awful lot of people have been wasted based on interpretations of those teachings.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 42

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:04:58 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I'd say there is a reason to. The point of this isn't to poke fun at Mohammed, but to make a statement about those who threaten violence if their religion is criticized. For valid reason, or just for lulz.

Hmmmm......then why not just put forward a reasoned argument arguing against the excesses of religious fundamentalism....it seems to me that that would be the reasonable thing to do.

But of course we know that pictures of Mohammed are guaranteed to piss off a lot of people.

Were I being cynical....I would say that the objective is provocation...in order to generate a response....so people can then say: "told you so...look at 'em....they're all lunatics!"

I would have thought the mature thing to do would be to give people a bit of space.....and if you don't like religious fundamentalism....then argue your case rather than provoke.

Well I don't disagree that it's provocative, my first response to this thread pretty much said so, but I do disagree on the effectiveness. This is a direct response to threats of violence made against the creators of South Park and the network that airs the show, and the response of the network, which many see as caving in to those threats. Indirectly, it's also a response to the Swedish cartoonists who were threatened, the murder of Theo Van Gogh, the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, and all the faceless people killed by fundamentalist Islamic regimes.

Yes, an alternative response would be to write a reasoned response calmly criticizing the merits of religious fundamentalism, but that doesn't address one problem - namely that the threats of violence were effective in the South Park situation. The irony of this is that the person who made the threats did it to silence the mockery of Islam (on a show that has mocked just about everyone) and managed to spark a situation where even more people started to mock Islam.

While I doubt it will make them reconsider their tactics, I definitely appreciate the "fuck you and your stupid suicide bombs" sentiment.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 43

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:09:06 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
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quote:

But Islam, as I understand it, it is an offshoot of Christianity, a religious sect that took a different path, and with that part of the christianity package.

Islam and Christianity come from the same source (Judaism) and Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet (but not the Son of God) while Christianity doesn't see Mohammed as anyone special.

The Jews, obviously, can't be bothered with either of them. But as far as agreement goes, that's going to be kind of hard when the Christians tell the Muslims "your prophet was just some guy" and the Muslims tell the Christians "your God was just a regular old prophet."

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 5/22/2010 5:11:34 AM >

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 44

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:18:57 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Why do you endanger your own people ?

It is an effective Roman tactic called provocation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But Islam, as I understand it, it is an offshoot of Christianity, a religious sect that took a different path, and with that part of the Christianity package.

Islam has nothing to do with Christianity. They pay lipservice only to Jesus and they probably have never heard of Saint Paul. Any population that circumcises its males by my definition are Abrahamic Jews (as opposed to genuine Jews who are present in all populations and all religions and who - unless Abrahamic - are not circumcised).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
At one time it was Roman Catholic Christians persecuting Protestant Christians and vice versa, Then it was Catholic Christians persecuting Muslims and vice versa, somewhere in that it was both Christian sects persecuting Jews and now we have instances of Jews persecuting Muslims and vice versa. What is the common factor in all this ?

Quite simply; God and interpretation of what God is.

It is not as simple as that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
All those sects, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Muslim all came from the same source, you are in effect the same in your belief, except that as history has shown, you still war over whose interpretation is the correct one.

The Christians do not come from the same source as the Abrahamic Jews. They do not worship the pagan gods of the Abrahamic Jews, but they worship the Creator through Jesus Christ. They are a new religion that was grafted onto the dead trunk of the religion of the Abrahamic Jews.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I wonder if the rest of the world, you know, the believers of other religions, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist and others beliefs where the (Hebrew?) God is not the source of their belief are thinking, FFS, give the world a break, there are others in this world too, and they deserve a bit of peace and quiet, a reprieve from the constant waste that has been going on for at least the last 2000 years.

The pagan gods of the Abrahamic Jews also were the pagan gods of all other peoples in the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
It is interesting though, for a god that was supposed to come to save the people, an awful lot of people have been wasted based on interpretations of those teachings.

That is because those who rule humanity are ever attempting to gain more power and to push civilization ahead.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 45

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:23:17 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Hmmmm......then why not just put forward a reasoned argument arguing against the excesses of religious fundamentalism....it seems to me that that would be the reasonable thing to do.

I would have thought the mature thing to do would be to give people a bit of space.....and if you don't like religious fundamentalism....then argue your case rather than provoke.

Yes, an alternative response would be to write a reasoned response calmly criticizing the merits of religious fundamentalism

The problem with that is that it is impossible to reason with religious nuts (including atheist and agnostic and political nuts). So the only reasonable alternative is to kill them off.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 46

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:44:34 AM

ShoreBound149

Posts: 622
Joined: 7/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

A final point, I believe the Qur'an states protection for the Domi people, not anihilation. The Domi people are needed by Islam, and the Domi are of the book. Terrorist action that kill the Domi, are against the Qur'an, the terrorists that commit atrocities in the name of Allah, are disregarding his teachings, they are in fact sinners, so I guess no pleasant gardens for them and x virgins in their new existence.

I knew there had to be more than one.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 47

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:46:39 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
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Kinda scary if you dwell on it/

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(in reply to ShoreBound149)

Post #: 48

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 8:32:51 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

btw domi... in Islam, your current Avatar is also a graven Image and your promotion of it a capital crime, that fact it uses a sub-Saharan African as the Islamic Prophet Jesus, means likely means it will be a very painful death at that.

Teehee

I would call the Islam police on him but they might notice I haven't covered my hair and face and kill me too. I mean don't get me wrong I have nothing against getting stoned, but I think they do it differently over there.

Also they might cut off my fingertips because I'm wearing nail polish and I can't even watch that sort of shit in movies.

Not to mention shave off those pretty blonde locks

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 49

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 8:38:29 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

FR...

Were are all the "responsible" liberty folks when Jesus or Moses or God the Father are being mocked and ridiculed???

"Yes, you can draw Muhammad but you shouldn't because it angers Muslims and is not responsible"

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 50

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 8:52:50 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Not to mention shave off those pretty blonde locks

Oh I would cry. I mean hair does grow back better than fingertips do but still. I'd have to wear hats for like years.

Or just rock a veil for a bit. C'est la vie.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 51

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 9:25:29 AM

flcouple2009

Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
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Funny how you can find some people who were spitting mad about the "Zombie Jesus" thread who think this is all right.

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 52

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 11:25:21 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

Do you have examples flc2009???

What Governments were calling for facebook to cut off its Zombie Jesus Pages? Or Blocking them?

What Christian sects are blowing up or tring to blow up artists' work places because of a cartoon?

Which Christian Cleric is calling for the murder of specific artists and writers for the content of their work?

And would you be asking us to understand that this is the Chtistian Cluture and we need to learn, understand and
respect it and then maybe then, people would not mock it???

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 5/22/2010 11:27:56 AM >

(in reply to flcouple2009)

Post #: 53

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 1:53:13 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

We got Christians bombing and killing here,in our own country FDD,now,presently.

Where`s your outrage over that?Or are they the wrong color/religion/culture for your selective outrage.Or is b/c clinics and doctors aren`t artists or some bullshit like that?

And if you conservatives are so tough,why don`t you go over to a Muslim country and pull this shit?

Wow! Did ya`ll see that wisp of vapor fly up over every conservative,folks? That was their spines evaporating after hearing that challenge.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 54

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 2:05:08 PM

flcouple2009

Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Do you have examples flc2009???

What Governments were calling for facebook to cut off its Zombie Jesus Pages? Or Blocking them?

What Christian sects are blowing up or tring to blow up artists' work places because of a cartoon?

Which Christian Cleric is calling for the murder of specific artists and writers for the content of their work?

And would you be asking us to understand that this is the Chtistian Cluture and we need to learn, understand and
respect it and then maybe then, people would not mock it???

As Bugs would say "what a maroon". Type Zombie Jesus in the search here and do your own work.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 55

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:01:46 PM

scrapdaddy

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline

There is so much wrong with the apologists on this thread.

At what point did you forget that islamic fundamentalists blew up the trade center towers resulting in the deaths of 3000 Americans, and outright war? You want to talk about provocation caused by a simple cartoon depiction? How can you possibly equate the threats and attempts on the lives of those who dare to criticise a religion's more rabid followers with the criticism itself? How can you compare the drawing of a cartoon with the practice of suicide bombing. Is social and political commentary no longer permitted if it upsets those it is sharply aimed at? If so, then surely this is the end of the Daily Show with John Stewart, and the Colbert report, since that is exclusively their stock in trade.

Every cartoon of Mohammed that was drawn on this day contains a singular critical subtext: "If you feel like you have to kill over this picture, there is something wrong with you."

That is what this day is about. Not provocation, not baseless insulting, but valid social commentary on those that feel justified in killing over a drawing.

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)

Post #: 56

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:35:40 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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So let`s distinguish between Islamic terrorists and domestic white christian ones.

I don`t know,I see a pile of dead bodies from both types.

And since the Iraq tragedy,we can`t claim we didn`t kill a bunch of Muslims or the moral high ground.

Neo-cons are just as deadly as terrorist group.They pride themselves as such.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/22/2010 5:37:21 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to scrapdaddy)

Post #: 57

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:50:50 PM

scrapdaddy

Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline

Which would matter IF it was relevant. The fact that every race has its murderers and every religion has its extremists doesn't make either okay. It also doesn't mean that criticism is not warranted or well placed.

Although I would argue that in Iraq we still have the moral high ground if such exists, since while terrorists and insurgents have devoted them solely to death and destruction, at least the US troops ARE trying to rebuild and protect along with the atrocities.

And let's not get into the whole 'filthy neo-con' etc argument. It has nothing to do with the topic at question.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 58

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:54:10 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

There is so much wrong with the apologists on this thread.

< snip >

That is what this day is about. Not provocation, not baseless insulting, but valid social commentary on those that feel justified in killing over a drawing.

As first posts go, this is quite ironic. You use the phrase baseless insulting, yet your very first line drips with it.

Let me put you straight. Thinking that it is wrong to belittle someone elses faith, doesnt make anyone an apologist.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)

Post #: 59

RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 5:55:44 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We got Christians bombing and killing here,in our own country FDD,now,presently.

Where`s your outrage over that?Or are they the wrong color/religion/culture for your selective outrage.Or is b/c clinics and doctors aren`t artists or some bullshit like that?

Well according to some of the responses on this thread it's because it's the doctor's fault for provoking the Christian fundamentalists.

That would definitely give a new dimension to the abortion debate - abortion should be illegal because crazy people kill over it. Or do we just hold ourselves to higher standards, saying "it's wrong to murder people in cold blood for not following your religion" is a valid moral guideline for the US but not for those crazy savages over there who just can't help themselves.

quote:

And if you conservatives are so tough,why don`t you go over to a Muslim country and pull this shit?

Wow! Did ya`ll see that wisp of vapor fly up over every conservative,folks? That was their spines evaporating after hearing that challenge.

I can't speak for conservatives but the reason I would do it in a country that protects freedom of speech rather than a country that outlaws blasphemy is because I don't have a death wish.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 60

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