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RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:00:55 PM   
scrapdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
As first posts go, this is quite ironic. You use the phrase baseless insulting, yet your very first line drips with it.

Let me put you straight. Thinking that it is wrong to belittle someone elses faith, doesnt make anyone an apologist.


One man's belittling is another man's valid social criticism. In that sense, yes it is. It's tantamount to "we can't criticise them for wanting to kill cartoonists because we are no better." or to turn that logic around "it is okay for them to threaten to kill cartoonists and to attempt it, because we are no better" - and that, my friend, is apology.

For the warrant, it's only baseless insulting if it's insulting and baseless.

For my part, I'm simply expressing my distaste for the morally and mentally weak self loathing and apologistic behavior that we western countries are increasingly renowned for. You may find that insulting, but it is hardly baseless.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:04:14 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

That would definitely give a new dimension to the abortion debate - abortion should be illegal because crazy people kill over it. Or do we just hold ourselves to higher standards, saying "it's wrong to murder people in cold blood for not following your religion" is a valid moral guideline for the US but not for those crazy savages over there who just can't help themselves.



As worded, it sounds like you think all Muslims are crazy savages. Do you really think this ?

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:05:47 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

That would definitely give a new dimension to the abortion debate - abortion should be illegal because crazy people kill over it. Or do we just hold ourselves to higher standards, saying "it's wrong to murder people in cold blood for not following your religion" is a valid moral guideline for the US but not for those crazy savages over there who just can't help themselves.



As worded, it sounds like you think all Muslims are crazy savages. Do you really think this ?


No. I think that the fundamentalists who make death threats are completely responsible for their actions and should be held accountable.

I was paraphrasing the "don't provoke them, they might kill you" sentiments on this thread, it really seems to me like a lot of people are saying that radical threats of violence are somehow justifiable if someone pokes fun at your religion.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:08:28 PM   
scrapdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

That would definitely give a new dimension to the abortion debate - abortion should be illegal because crazy people kill over it. Or do we just hold ourselves to higher standards, saying "it's wrong to murder people in cold blood for not following your religion" is a valid moral guideline for the US but not for those crazy savages over there who just can't help themselves.



As worded, it sounds like you think all Muslims are crazy savages. Do you really think this ?


Are you for real? She's talking about having double standards. One for us, and one for people who are not us even though their actions are rightly reprehensible to us.

That's the problem through out this thread. Someone makes a valid point regarding a subset of a religion, and the apologists like yourself try to re-cast it in the light of an attack against the religion itself and all its followers.

So no (and I hope Elisabella doesn't mind me speaking for her here) she is NOT talking about all practitioners/followers of a religion, but that subset of the Islamic faithful that feels justified in murder over cartoons and drawings.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:12:50 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
As first posts go, this is quite ironic. You use the phrase baseless insulting, yet your very first line drips with it.

Let me put you straight. Thinking that it is wrong to belittle someone elses faith, doesnt make anyone an apologist.


One man's belittling is another man's valid social criticism. In that sense, yes it is. It's tantamount to "we can't criticise them for wanting to kill cartoonists because we are no better." or to turn that logic around "it is okay for them to threaten to kill cartoonists and to attempt it, because we are no better" - and that, my friend, is apology.

For the warrant, it's only baseless insulting if it's insulting and baseless.

For my part, I'm simply expressing my distaste for the morally and mentally weak self loathing and apologistic behavior that we western countries are increasingly renowned for. You may find that insulting, but it is hardly baseless.


It seemed to me you were talking about anyone who was critical of draw Mohammed day. It is easy to confuse self loathing with morals.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:20:26 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


It seemed to me you were talking about anyone who was critical of draw Mohammed day. It is easy to confuse self loathing with morals.


Re-casting someone's argument to a different light solely so you can attempt to reject it or somehow demonstrate to the assembled how foolish and ignorant/intolerant it is, is not an act born of morality. Such acts are born of intellectual dishonesty, not altruism.

In that sense, I guess you're right. You did confuse your self-loathing for morals.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:21:13 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

That would definitely give a new dimension to the abortion debate - abortion should be illegal because crazy people kill over it. Or do we just hold ourselves to higher standards, saying "it's wrong to murder people in cold blood for not following your religion" is a valid moral guideline for the US but not for those crazy savages over there who just can't help themselves.



As worded, it sounds like you think all Muslims are crazy savages. Do you really think this ?


Are you for real? She's talking about having double standards. One for us, and one for people who are not us even though their actions are rightly reprehensible to us.

That's the problem through out this thread. Someone makes a valid point regarding a subset of a religion, and the apologists like yourself try to re-cast it in the light of an attack against the religion itself and all its followers.

So no (and I hope Elisabella doesn't mind me speaking for her here) she is NOT talking about all practitioners/followers of a religion, but that subset of the Islamic faithful that feels justified in murder over cartoons and drawings.


A few points for you.

Firstly, I did say to Elisabella "as worded".. IE how I read her post.

Secondly, wow You have worked out I am an apologist in ten minutes, kudos to you.

Thirdly, yes I am real. My comments were posed on the words you both used. If you didnt mean what you said, then word it differenly. Its hardly rocket science is it.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:23:29 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

Re-casting someone's argument to a different light solely so you can attempt to reject it or somehow demonstrate to the assembled how foolish and ignorant/intolerant it is, is not an act born of morality. Such acts are born of intellectual dishonesty, not altruism.

In that sense, I guess you're right. You did confuse your self-loathing for morals.


I didnt re-cast your post, I questioned it. Thats what debate is.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:25:52 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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How many cartoonists have been killed defending their right to draw Mohammed? One One One, this was quite a while ago and most would as such call it an isolated incident, not really worthy of continual debate. You'd think there has been a cartoonist killed by a Muslim each week, more cartoonists have died during air travel and we know how safe that is, this is a statistical fact!


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 5/22/2010 6:26:06 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:31:24 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Firstly, I did say to Elisabella "as worded".. IE how I read her post.



Which says more about you than it does about her.

I had no difficulty at all in understanding her intent, from page 1 of this thread - yet it seems you and others simply couldn't grasp that you can criticize a subset of a faith's followers without even commenting on the faith itself. Elisabella's writing is pretty clear. Practically the only way you could get it wrong is if you approached it with a pre-conceived idea of content, or if you deliberately misunderstood it. Which is my allegation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Secondly, wow You have worked out I am an apologist in ten minutes, kudos to you.


It wasn't exactly hard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Thirdly, yes I am real. My comments were posed on the words you both used. If you didnt mean what you said, then word it differenly. Its hardly rocket science is it.


Your failure to comprehend is more an impeachment of your ability to read objectively than it is of anything Elisabella (again, no offense Elisabella) or I have written.

< Message edited by scrapdaddy -- 5/22/2010 6:32:10 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:35:42 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

How many cartoonists have been killed defending their right to draw Mohammed? One One One, this was quite a while ago and most would as such call it an isolated incident, not really worthy of continual debate. You'd think there has been a cartoonist killed by a Muslim each week, more cartoonists have died during air travel and we know how safe that is, this is a statistical fact!



And? Your point is that people die by other methods therefore death-threats and attacks/attempts on the lives of cartoonists is not worthy of concern or social commentary?

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:40:02 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I didnt re-cast your post, I questioned it. Thats what debate is.


Honestly, the political debates at election time are an inappropriate guide on how to debate.

Debate is when you address the points your opponent makes in his or her statements, not the semantics of his or her statements, and not points or statements that he or she categorically did not make.

I am more than happy to respond to questions raised on the actual content of my posts, rather than the content you'd rather address because it's easier.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:41:40 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

Your failure to comprehend is more an impeachment of your ability to read objectively than it is of anything Elisabella (again, no offense Elisabella) or I have written.


Methinks I read you only too well. Time will tell.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:44:20 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

Your failure to comprehend is more an impeachment of your ability to read objectively than it is of anything Elisabella (again, no offense Elisabella) or I have written.


Methinks I read you only too well. Time will tell.


Hahahahaha. No, still not debating.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:45:08 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I didnt re-cast your post, I questioned it. Thats what debate is.


Honestly, the political debates at election time are an inappropriate guide on how to debate.

Debate is when you address the points your opponent makes in his or her statements, not the semantics of his or her statements, and not points or statements that he or she categorically did not make.

I am more than happy to respond to questions raised on the actual content of my posts, rather than the content you'd rather address because it's easier.



Many of from the right here seem to couch racist sentiments in vague posts. I am not accusing you, nor indeed Elisabella, of doing so. I was merely asking for clarification. Stick around and you will see what I mean.


(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:46:27 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

How many cartoonists have been killed defending their right to draw Mohammed? One One One, this was quite a while ago and most would as such call it an isolated incident, not really worthy of continual debate. You'd think there has been a cartoonist killed by a Muslim each week, more cartoonists have died during air travel and we know how safe that is, this is a statistical fact!



And? Your point is that people die by other methods therefore death-threats and attacks/attempts on the lives of cartoonists is not worthy of concern or social commentary?


My point is people seem to like worrying about events that are unlikely to occur, more people get killed by zombie housewives.

Where is all the social commentary about that? It's a non issue you could list a thousand other easier and more likely ways to die (say attending a wedding or other large gathering in the middle-east). People like to create monsters to loathe and fear don't they?

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:53:12 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3


My point is people seem to like worrying about events that are unlikely to occur, more people get killed by zombie housewives.

Where is all the social commentary about that? It's a non issue you could list a thousand other easier and more likely ways to die (say attending a wedding or other large gathering in the middle-east). People like to create monsters to loathe and fear don't they?


First, I'm not aware of a single death due to zombie housewives, which puts cartoonists in a higher risk bracket, n'est-ce pas?

Second to that, people will always comment on whatever is interesting for them to comment on, that makes that commentary neither more nor less valid.

Each to their own, I always say.

Don't minimize the seriousness of these threats though. In January this year, police shot a man attempting to kill one of the Danish cartoonists:

quote:



From Wikipedia:

January 2010 Westergaard incident
On 1 January 2010, Danish police shot and wounded a man at the home of Kurt Westergaard in Aarhus. Westergaard drew the best known of the cartoons, which depicted the prophet Muhammad with a bomb in his turban. The man was described as a 28-year-old Somali linked to the radical Islamist al-Shabab militia. He reportedly shouted in broken English that he wanted to kill Westergaard, who alerted police after locking himself into a panic room in the house, which was a specially fortified bathroom.[108][109] Police said that the man was "armed with an axe and a knife in either hand", and broke down the entrance door of the house with the axe. The man attempted unsuccessfully to break down the door of the panic room while shouting swear words. He was shot in his right leg and left hand after reportedly throwing the axe at a police officer who arrived at the scene.[110] Westergaard's five-year-old granddaughter was present in the living room of the house during the incident, but neither Westergaard nor his grandchild were harmed. Bomb disposal experts searched the home in order to ensure that a device had not been planted.[111] The Somali man was carried into court on a stretcher to face two charges of attempted murder, which he denied. He was not named as the result of an injunction in the Danish courts. A spokesman for al-Shabab, Sheikh Ali Muhamud Rage, commented: "We appreciate the incident in which a Muslim Somali boy attacked the devil who abused our prophet Mohammed and we call upon all Muslims around the world to target the people like him."[112]


On the other hand, I've never heard of a zombie housewife so much as knocking on a door, much less arming herself with an axe and knife and attempting to break into the panic room.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 6:54:06 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Many of from the right here seem to couch racist sentiments in vague posts. I am not accusing you, nor indeed Elisabella, of doing so. I was merely asking for clarification. Stick around and you will see what I mean.


I wouldn't say it's just the "right" doing it - that line was in response to Owner59's post, implying that criticism of Muslim fundamentalists is racist because "they [are] the wrong color/religion/culture for your selective outrage" and I pointed out that it's quite the opposite - we, as a western nation, look down on anyone who kill people over perceived insult to their religion.

Put it like this, do you think that if a Christian fundamentalist put a $150k bounty on someone's head for encouraging people to blaspheme, threatened to kill not only the person who blasphemed but random people at the company they worked for, we'd be saying "Oh well you shouldn't have provoked them, this is why it should be illegal to criticize someone's religion." I don't think so.

I think a lot of people are viewing this through the lens of "those people are foreign and practice a different religion therefore we should treat them with kid's gloves so the crazy doesn't come out," and if anything that sort of mentality is far more racist than saying "Those people who are willing to kill over a negative portrayal of their religion are fucking nuts."

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 7:03:26 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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To clarify - imagine if when Madonna came out with her Like A Prayer video, the pope offered $150,000 to whoever murdered her.

I think a lot of people would react the same way - and a lot of similar works would have been created in protest.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 7:04:42 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
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You make it worse because by constantly bringing it up because your show your fear of it and in so doing inspire more extremist nuts to carry out such action. They see this as the most effective way to get their point across.

In the beginning there was one mad man who killed in the name of his religion, not the first, not the last.

In terms of publicity for his actions it could have ended there but the western media loves to create this image of a popular movement and so one man becomes a few more. They do it because you fear it, my view is that not constantly highlighting isolated incidents as an organised movement would make those with extreme beliefs realise that even extreme acts aren't going to get them a hearing if they don't deserve one.

You are pandering to their attention seeking with all this and just reaffirming their view that extreme acts get them heard.

Does it deserve any more publicity than a mad man hearing voices telling him to kill people, this is my question?

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 5/22/2010 7:11:34 PM >


_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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