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RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 10:24:17 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Yes, He is a b[r]ight funny and well informed individual.


What are you?


I'd say ditto, but that would actually qualify your statement as having some sort of accuracy.

Can't say I find accusing people of dementia particularly hilarious, but then, comedy really is subjective.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 10:27:06 PM   
scrapdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella



I was paraphrasing the "don't provoke them, they might kill you" sentiments on this thread, it really seems to me like a lot of people are saying that radical threats of violence are somehow justifiable if someone pokes fun at your religion.


Where is the post that says that?



... snip ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

One suggests that by provoking extremists there might be consequences.




(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 10:54:53 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

None of those posts say what you alluded they did. One suggests that we are always looking to stick our nose in the business of others.

One suggests that by provoking extremists there might be consequences.


Again you prove you have a problem making sense of things with any form of accuracy.


It also suggests that we make it illegal to mock religion, as if the responsibility for the actions of extremists lies with us and not the extremists themselves.

That being said, I don't understand why you would waste your time talking to someone who you feel lacks basic comprehension skills. It's almost as if you seek that shit out.


No it suggests that there might be ramifications....That is all.

There are ramifications for being an abortion doctor...You might be killed.


I like to point out to people their dementia...maybe you should start taking aricept.


No, it says:

quote:

But of those that call for a draw Mohammed day, that stinks of ridicule despite any other reason, for it will bring out those that have an axe to grind and as a result expose that country as an offensive country, of which people who are not connected may feel a person's wrath.

The ridicule of religious beliefs should be outlawed, as it is not conducive to living with any modicum of tolerance to the combined divisions in society.


If all it said is "they might attack us for this" that would be one thing, instead it says "they might attack us, so we should make this illegal, so that innocent people who aren't connected to this (as opposed to the 'guilty' people who are) aren't hurt for living in an 'offensive' country."

If you really want to compare this to abortion doctors it would be like saying "Abortion should be illegal, because angry fundamentalists might retaliate, and when they do they might blow up the whole building instead of just shooting the doctor."

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 11:04:04 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy
Can't say I find accusing people of dementia particularly hilarious, but then, comedy really is subjective.


It totally could be, but it would need a better setup than "lol u needs ur medicashunz"

The cool thing about making dementia jokes is that if you offend people who have dementia they forget about it 3 hours later and then grandpa comes into the kitchen with a half-made suicide bomb and asks if you can help him finish fixing the clock.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/22/2010 11:05:22 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy
Can't say I find accusing people of dementia particularly hilarious, but then, comedy really is subjective.


It totally could be, but it would need a better setup than "lol u needs ur medicashunz"

The cool thing about making dementia jokes is that if you offend people who have dementia they forget about it 3 hours later and then grandpa comes into the kitchen with a half-made suicide bomb and asks if you can help him finish fixing the clock.


Well, okay, agreed. It's all about context and timing mechanisms.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 1:05:04 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

There is so much wrong with the apologists on this thread.

At what point did you forget that islamic fundamentalists blew up the trade center towers resulting in the deaths of 3000 Americans, and outright war? You want to talk about provocation caused by a simple cartoon depiction?



And here we have the real intention behind such drawings - the usual trail of thought: Islam - Mohammed - terrorism (irretrievably linked according to some).

Why don't you just be honest and say: "I want revenge - 20 of them bombed New York - so I want to provoke them".

As it stands there's a thinly veiled attempt to use the cloak of freedom of expression. Well...yeah...of course you're free to provoke them and of course they're free to ignore you - which I'm sure 99% will ignore you and see it for the childish stunt that is.

You say 'apologists'? I'm not apologising for terrorism nor apologising for the reaction which of course you will garner. I'm saying that the drawings are pathetic. The stuff kids do when they want a reaction - instead of talking it out reasonably they provoke - and that's exactly what this is.

Grow up man.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 2:04:52 AM   
scrapdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

And here we have the real intention behind such drawings - the usual trail of thought: Islam - Mohammed - terrorism (irretrievably linked according to some).



The original cartoons, by the Danish artists, were commentary on the way the Taliban and fanatical Muslims use Islam as an excuse for their heinous acts, including suicide bombings. It's a question of perspective; horse and cart. The Danish were not attacked in 9/11. The Danish have their own concerns with Islam and Muslim fundamentalists, but you cannot put American baggage onto the Danes as motivation for the cartoons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Why don't you just be honest and say: "I want revenge - 20 of them bombed New York - so I want to provoke them".



Well, apart from not being American myself and never having personally seen the twin towers etc? I can only speak to my own motivations for the cartoons, but I do consider it cowardice if your only reason for not drawing something was that it might provoke them and then you would have to deal with the repercussions. If so, then you have stilled your pen, your voice, under duress. The cowards way out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

As it stands there's a thinly veiled attempt to use the cloak of freedom of expression. Well...yeah...of course you're free to provoke them and of course they're free to ignore you - which I'm sure 99% will ignore you and see it for the childish stunt that is.



It's not about being heard or ignored, NG, it's about having the courage and strength of principles to stand up against these styles of threats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You say 'apologists'? I'm not apologising for terrorism nor apologising for the reaction which of course you will garner. I'm saying that the drawings are pathetic. The stuff kids do when they want a reaction - instead of talking it out reasonably they provoke - and that's exactly what this is.

Grow up man.


It's not even about the cartoons themselves, the inspiration for Draw Mohammed Day arises from a will to show solidarity with the Danish cartoonists who have been threatened, attacked, and murdered over this. They worked in the medium of political cartoons - a main stay of social commentary in print media and now online for many many years. Therefore, we raise our pens in salute to them.

Some people write, others speak, some make documentaries, and some make political cartoons. These are all valid forms of expression and social commentary.

South Park is well known for their parody and satire, and have never shied from a topic before. Salman Rushdie did not draw political cartoons, he wrote, and he too was targeted by Islamic extremists. At what point do you draw the line, NG? At what point are you prepared to take ownership of what you do and say and stop letting religious extremists dictate what you can and can't say, draw, film, and do.


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 6:26:42 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		As I understand Islam being roughly half a century behind the Christian movement, I liken some of it to medieval Christianity, and there with medieval Christian fervour. Now some have described the practices of Islam as medieval, and there is to me the proof, they are just going through the same shite medieval Christianity did, you know, all those atrocities and acts of aggression carried out in the name of God. Now it is my understanding that Islam will also evolve into much of what Christianity is now, the mad mullahs like the mad priests will lose their power and people will have the freedom to choose what they believe in without the threat of duress or unproven promises. Those that feel the need to kill in the name of something or other to satisfy their own homicidal instincts will also fade into the background of angry words uttered from dark corners, just as it is today with the vociferous Christian needing something more to create segregation with.

People chide Islam for the way they are, but Christians just have to understand much of what Islam is today, Christianity has been in the past, and the punishment of Islam could be the punishment of Christianity, you know, modern powers metered out against medieval understanding, perhaps it really is the dislike for Islam is more about guilt for a Christian past.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 7:14:50 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		It does not really matter the relative dates and ages of religion as we should all be familiar with the modern world and the evils done in the name of many religions, no matter what our beliefs.

Furthermore how does a religion 'evolve' when the spiritual text remains the same? Even if Islam was a thousand years behind Christianity then I suggest that Christianity didn't really rewrite itself in the mean time.

You could even go further and say that Islam is Windows XP and Christianity is Windows 3.1.

By the same token Scientology is Windows 7.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 5/23/2010 7:21:09 AM >

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(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 11:37:55 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		What's Vista?

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 12:22:07 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

What's Vista?


Crap


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 3:12:39 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

It does not really matter the relative dates and ages of religion as we should all be familiar with the modern world and the evils done in the name of many religions, no matter what our beliefs.

Furthermore how does a religion 'evolve' when the spiritual text remains the same? Even if Islam was a thousand years behind Christianity then I suggest that Christianity didn't really rewrite itself in the mean time.

You could even go further and say that Islam is Windows XP and Christianity is Windows 3.1.

By the same token Scientology is Windows 7.


.... those comparisons simply don't work.

Also, don't forget that Christianity is responsible for the greatest amount of humanitarian effort in the world to this date.

As for evolving? Yes, Christianity has evolved greatly in the last century particularly. That doesn't mean that everyone has caught the train.

As with anything (including Islam) most people who accuse Christianity of not evolving haven't actually witnessed the major movements up close, and simply rely on what they see on TV and their own personal dated experiences which are not truly representative.

Scientology though would be better likened to the iPhone OS. Artificial, created to make money, full of gimmicks, utterly restrictive, and if you try to leave they'll brick your phone and see you in court.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 3:21:29 PM   
scrapdaddy


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

As I understand Islam being roughly half a century behind the Christian movement, I liken some of it to medieval Christianity, and there with medieval Christian fervour. Now some have described the practices of Islam as medieval, and there is to me the proof, they are just going through the same shite medieval Christianity did, you know, all those atrocities and acts of aggression carried out in the name of God. Now it is my understanding that Islam will also evolve into much of what Christianity is now, the mad mullahs like the mad priests will lose their power and people will have the freedom to choose what they believe in without the threat of duress or unproven promises. Those that feel the need to kill in the name of something or other to satisfy their own homicidal instincts will also fade into the background of angry words uttered from dark corners, just as it is today with the vociferous Christian needing something more to create segregation with.

People chide Islam for the way they are, but Christians just have to understand much of what Islam is today, Christianity has been in the past, and the punishment of Islam could be the punishment of Christianity, you know, modern powers metered out against medieval understanding, perhaps it really is the dislike for Islam is more about guilt for a Christian past.



People will always find a way to forward their own agendas. Mohammed created Islam for that very purpose. Throughout time movements of every nature have been co-opted by those with power and money to expand their own interests - if you think taking religion out of that equation will make a difference, you're sorely mistaken.

Further, violence and hate are fueled from ignorance. That won't change, and the only way to radically alter the status quo is to ensure open and healthy education - not these mullah controlled Islamic extremist schools where youths are indoctrinated heavily from the youngest ages.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 3:48:25 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

People will always find a way to forward their own agendas. Mohammed created Islam for that very purpose. Throughout time movements of every nature have been co-opted by those with power and money to expand their own interests - if you think taking religion out of that equation will make a difference, you're sorely mistaken.


As did the Romans when they exported Christianity to all four corners of the Empire.

quote:

Further, violence and hate are fueled from ignorance. That won't change, and the only way to radically alter the status quo is to ensure open and healthy education - not these mullah controlled Islamic extremist schools where youths are indoctrinated heavily from the youngest ages.


Odd that you refuse to see the drawings as ignorance, and anyone who criticizes them as an apologist. Or is this open and healthy debate you speak of, one sided ?

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 3:58:56 PM   
scrapdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

As did the Romans when they exported Christianity to all four corners of the Empire.



Agreed.

quote:



Odd that you refuse to see the drawings as ignorance, and anyone who criticizes them as an apologist. Or is this open and healthy debate you speak of, one sided ?


A picture speaks a thousand words. Even the drawings of children are full of insight and expression. Nor do I see anyone who criticizes a drawing as an apologist. The apologist behavior is trying to excuse extremists for their views because we are no better. The cowardly behavior is in silencing your own voice out of fear of the repercussions. I've not said for one minute that you cannot speak your mind, but don't disguise what you're doing as debating if you're not willing to address the actual content of that which you are responding to.

Really, you should avoid absolutes like 'anyone' since they are rarely if ever accurate.

I refuse to see the drawings as ignorance because - now stay with me here - they aren't.

I don't normally resort to dictionary definitions, but:

ig·no·rance   [ig-ner-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

Which these cartoons are clearly not.

< Message edited by scrapdaddy -- 5/23/2010 4:03:11 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 4:08:53 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

Odd that you refuse to see the drawings as ignorance


They're not ignorant.

You might think they're rude, stupid, unnecessary, provocative, etc. but "ignorance" would imply that there's some factual information that the participants don't have.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 4:09:03 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		It almost makes me feel humble to see my thread bringing people together.

I should get extra virgins when I kick the bucket.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 4:12:09 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapdaddy

I refuse to see the drawings as ignorance because - now stay with me here - they aren't.


This isnt a fact though, it is like my own posts, an opinion. Yet somehow you saw that as apologistic.

I and others see these drawings as ignorance. Many on these boards see all Muslims as terrorists, thats just racist bullshit.

(in reply to scrapdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 4:12:53 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

It almost makes me feel humble to see my thread bringing people together.

I should get extra virgins when I kick the bucket.


I just talked to Allah on facebook and he said you can have this one:



(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Draw Mohammed Day is near - 5/23/2010 4:14:24 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

Odd that you refuse to see the drawings as ignorance


They're not ignorant.

You might think they're rude, stupid, unnecessary, provocative, etc. but "ignorance" would imply that there's some factual information that the participants don't have.


I feel sorry for you if you fail to see mocking someones religion as anything other than ignorance.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 120
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