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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 7:48:33 PM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		dc! You're on our side of the boards! Stay! I miss you! Big smooches to you!

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 7:51:59 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Sorry, Jefff! I just couldn't resist.

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 7:52:42 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

Why? Because everyone agreed with me except for one person?


This is not true.
LadyNTrainer did not agree completely with you, but she instead to REALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION and not to just state the obvious facts as you did.
Also, cloudboy REALLY ANSWERED THE QUESTION. And also kevin. You don't have to count him if you don't want, if you think he is too much into fantasy.
And me.
This is so far 4 people. And some more also answered the question, not so detailed like LNT and cloudboy, but they at least answered the question in a constructive way.
What you did is to make parody of the thread.



As for LNT, she started with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
I'm going to echo LA here.  It's much too hard to generalize. 


She didn't disagree with me but rather added some exceptions she noted about more genderfluid individuals.

Kevin has no real BDSM experience (he admits this himself) and you asked for people who did to answer.

Cloudboy is the one I was referring to.

And btw, that is 3, not 4.

Why don't you stop typing in ALL CAPS (learn some netiquette, that is considered yelling and makes you look like an asshat).

People agreed with me not only because I speak from experience, but because they agreed. None of those who echoed me are followers of popular opinions and I'm pretty sure they don't wouldn't like the implications.

If I didn't post what I did, I can guarantee you that someone else would have posted the exact same thing.

- LA

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 7:54:49 PM   
Wolf2Bear


Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

Why? Because everyone agreed with me except for one person?


This is not true.
LadyNTrainer did not agree completely with you, but she instead tried to REALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION and not to just state the obvious facts as you did.
Also, cloudboy REALLY ANSWERED THE QUESTION. And also kevin. You don't have to count him if you don't want, if you think he is too much into fantasy.
And me.
This is so far 4 people. And some more also answered the question, not so detailed like LNT and cloudboy, but they at least answered the question in a constructive way.
What you did is to make parody of the thread.


So what you really want is blunt answers without any regard for being politically correct even if the blunt honest terms used will offend others? If that is the case, shall I repeat my answer in the most blunt way possible without taking other people's sensibilities into consideration as that is what you seem to want.


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:17:13 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I have a different assessment than you do.  If anyone stifled this thread, it was not LadyA.  It wasn't even your charming internet personality, OP.  Take another look at when folks stopped taking this thread.

Now, My earlier reply to you was that I agreed with LadyA.  This isn't something that I came up with just because you showed up.  Here is a very good example of the position that I have held that there are very few differences in whether a male or female is at the lead.  http://www.collarchat.com/m_3186563/tm.htm  It has always been My position here that, except for some physical health issues related to gender, some of the basic points of how folks handle their dynamics have everything to do with their own personal style.

As to who is harsher, riskier, deeper, stricter, or anything else.  Well, that is all a matter of perception.  Yes, I probably fall into some of those.  I'm not saying I'm the biggest, baddest kid on the block, but I get the feeling that folks who know Me in real life and some who have come to know Me on these boards would probably put Me in the top ten on at least one of those areas.  However, none of it, the sadism, the protocol, the fact that I expect obedience from anyone in My collar, has a darn thing to do with Me being female.

The leather community has long recognized that protocol is dictated on length of experience and not gender.  It is something that I firmly agree with.


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:22:52 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		FR

SocratesNot,

Generalisations are useful in some circumstances but not in others. I don't know how much statistics you know, but let's take this mathematically:

If you take any attribute X (strictness, say), and draw a graph of the frequency of X (how many Doms have a particular level of strictness) against it's value (how strict they are) you end up with a bell curve. (All bell curves are roughly the same shape-you'd get the same sort of shape for any attribute clustered around an average value.)

When you generalise an attribute, you talk about the average value, which in the case of a bell curve is the central point. If you found some way to quantify X and drew frequency distribution graphs for strictness for Maledoms and Femdoms, would there be a difference in the mean values of the two curves? Probably.

But you have to compare that difference to the variation within each bell-curve itself-there is such wide variation in values of X for Femdoms and in values of X for Maledoms that the case for using the difference between the averages for the two as a statistic is dodgy.

So in this case I would say that generalisations are probably going to be meaningless.


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:31:39 PM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		VaguelyCurious, you made some very good points.
I didn't expect strictly statistical responses. It wouldn't even be possible unless someone conducted some sort of research.
I was expecting answers which will try to establish some qualitative difference between those relationship, not quantitative.

Even the question - which is stricter - can be answered qualitatively, instead of quantitatively.
There are many different types of strictness. Some types of strictness are maybe less tolerant to disobedience, but at the same time less demanding. Other are maybe more into phisical pain, but less into obedience, etc. I'm just giving some examples.

I was expecting the discussion about basic qualitative differences between maledom and femdom relationships.

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:36:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

VaguelyCurious, you made some very good points.


Good grief. She made the same point I and almost everyone else did.

I guess you wowed him with hypothetical stats VC. I'm in awe.

- LA

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:38:07 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I didn't expect strictly statistical responses. It wouldn't even be possible unless someone conducted some sort of research.
I wasn't offering you one-that was metastatistics :P

quote:

I was expecting answers which will try to establish some qualitative difference between those relationship, not quantitative.

...I was expecting the discussion about basic qualitative differences between maledom and femdom relationships.
But the statistical concept still applies to qualitative differences-the variations within are *so* much greater than the differences between that any generalisation is likely to be meaningless.

You don't get to shirk statistical responsibility by saying 'but I only want qualitative data'-it still has to *mean* something.


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:40:39 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

VaguelyCurious, you made some very good points.


Good grief. She made the same point I and almost everyone else did.
You know that and I know that-but some people are just more mathematically minded than others :P

quote:

I guess you wowed him with hypothetical stats VC. I'm in awe.
I know you're no great lover of my tendency to resort to numbercrunching, LA, but you cannae argue with the metanumbers!


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:44:46 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I am a qualitative researcher. I know you respect me a little less now :-p

- LA

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:48:18 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I am a qualitative researcher. I know you respect me a little less now :-p
Not so, not so! I just feel your irritation whenever I bring out my metacalculator :P


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:51:45 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I am a qualitative researcher. I know you respect me a little less now :-p
Not so, not so! I just feel your irritation whenever I bring out my metacalculator :P



You must be mistaking me with someone else. I've never protested against the metacalculator. In fact, this is the first time you use the metacalculator in my presence. I have to admit, it's damn impressive ;-)

- LA

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 8:56:41 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You must be mistaking me with someone else. I've never protested against the metacalculator. In fact, this is the first time you use the metacalculator in my presence. I have to admit, it's damn impressive ;-)
I beg to differ-we had a debate about whether it was possible to define normality a while ago. I might not have used the word metacalculator, but we talked about quantifying variables and creating bell curves and stuff.

It's 5am and I don't have the energy to find the thread because I remember *nothing else* about it, other than that it was round about the same time as your determinism thread.

So there!


< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 5/23/2010 8:57:17 PM >

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 9:02:27 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Since you begged, I'll let you be right ;-)

Now go to bed pleeeeease. You are too young to get wrinkles!

- LA

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 9:03:40 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

No, saying that in maledom relationship the man is in charge and in femdom relationship the woman is in charge is equivalent to saying "the onion is round".


Its a cop out, is what it is.

If someone asked me what are the differences between Russians and Americans, and all I could say was, "Russians are born in Russia and Americans are born in the USA," I've pretty much given you a useless answer.

"Russians are human just like Americans are," is also a useless answer.

The idea that absent absolute truths you must keep your mouth shut is ludicrous. I see big differences between maledoms and femdoms, just like I see big differences between men and women. The trick is, can you point out the differences effectively instead of copping out or engaging in bigotry or stupid, caricature-like stereotypes.

WebMD had a very interesting article about the different attitudes men and woman have about sex, and this helps explain why BDSM for men is sexually based and for women less sexually based. It also helps explain the common femdom objection to sexually obsessed men and "do-me malesubs."

In contrast, there doesn't even seem to exist a thread line on "do-me" femsubs.

--------

The last random femdom profile that popped up for me on sign-on read:

"I am a smart, serious Domme looking for a true, live-in slave, of means. Ownership and total control are requirements. Must be between 40-65, relocatable and bi-willing. No comprehensive intro, no response. "

It definitely read like a want ad.

Maledom's with such language would probably not succeed in finding a partner. They must use a different approach.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/23/2010 9:19:18 PM >

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 9:05:39 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Since you begged, I'll let you be right ;-)
Nothing to do with the fact that I *am* right, then? teehee

quote:

Now go to bed pleeeeease. You are too young to get wrinkles!
Don't worry-I caught a few hours before, and I'll catch a few more in a while. Plus, you wouldn't worry about me getting wrinkles if you had met my mother-she looks a good decade younger than she really is.


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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 9:06:52 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Since you begged, I'll let you be right ;-)
Nothing to do with the fact that I *am* right, then? teehee

quote:

Now go to bed pleeeeease. You are too young to get wrinkles!
Don't worry-I caught a few hours before, and I'll catch a few more in a while. Plus, you wouldn't worry about me getting wrinkles if you had met my mother-she looks a good decade younger than she really is.



Ok, than you might want to turn that metacalculator on the cloud.

- LA

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RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 9:35:47 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		It was brought to My attention that the link I provided did not work.  I am not sure what the issue is, but the thread I was using as an example of previously stating My position that the differences specifically relating to gender as far as the differences in who leads a relationship, are very slim.
The following are exerts from that thread:


quote:

If you would like to enlighten Me as to why the perspective of a Dominant in this matter would be so much different because of the genitalia they possess, please do so.  Exactly what do you see about the subject that would change had the question only received answers from Dominants that were biologically male?


quote:

In all seriousness, I would say that most (perhaps 90%) of issues that spring up within power dynamics overlap in regard to gender.  A subject such as punishment, doesn't really hit that inner circle of the bulls eye.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
Nope. There are other factors involved. Male dom perspective is different from female dom perspective, very.

Explain why.

quote:

A woman is not just a man with tits. A female dominant is not just a male dominant with tits. There are real differences in their situations.

Except for health issues related to the different genders, please give some examples.

quote:

And the other side of it - a male dominant is not just a domme with a cock. We have different problems, different perspectives.

There are some differences, such as male led relationships being more easily accepted by society than female led ones.  I am not saying the two are exactly the same.  A situation where a punishment is warranted isn't in the same category.

quote:

One easy difference to point out - exactly how much email does a woman, any woman, get in comparison to a man? Right. You think that's just an isolated behavior? There are deeper currents running here, and assuming that doms are doms regardless of sex is blinding yourself.

The amount of email I get has squat to do with the way I run this dynamic.  While a Domme may have more opportunities available to her due to the imbalance of the number of male subs in comparison, there also has to be something said of the quality of that Dominant to make an established dynamic work.  Again, as I see punishment as something that is happening within an established dynamic, rather than just a play session (which I'll readily admit that I have more opportunities due to gender) I believe the Dominant's personality has more to do with it than whether that person is male or female.




I re-posted these comments only to illustrate to the OP that on many such threads, I can be found stating that there is little difference that is solely based on gender.


For the record, the other poster who is quoted here was never able to provide Me with the examples that I asked for.


My thanks to LadyA for bringing the fact that the link was not working to My attention.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Maledom relationships vs. Femdom relationships - 5/23/2010 9:45:56 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

In each relationship its (usually) the man who must court the woman.

Maledom profiles reflect that dynamic and are solicitous and considerate of woman (as a rule.)

Femdom profiles often read like a job description for which the man needs to apply and demonstrate his worthiness.

Femdom profiles garner a lot of attention, and a lot of it is inappropriate attention. So, the femdom's main project is sorting, deciding, and evaluating.


All good points, though there are a number of femdoms who are wired to want to do the courting.  My guess is that this is a nontrivial percentage of femdoms, but not a majority by any means, so the supply and demand logistics (men do the courting, women do the evaluating and selecting) will likely apply.


quote:

Once a relationship is going, there's the BDSM cliche, "the maledom wants to know how well she gives a blowjob, the femdom how well he cleans house." I don't say this is "accurate," but it provides interesting food for thought. Luckyalbatross said this to me when we had dinner some years ago, before she moved to TX.


On this point I do have to disagree.  Of all the femdoms in LTR's with male submissives I have ever personally known, almost every single one (there have been one or two exceptions) considered sexual service a very important component of their relationship.  It's a very big deal to us.  It matters.  Granted, we also expect service in other areas, but if he's lousy in bed, that's gonna be as much of a problem in the average femdom LTR as it is in a maledom LTR.


quote:

The maledom-femsub dynamic comports more with social norms and arguably biological wiring.


Does it?  Take a closer look at more recent research, and preferably something a bit more in-depth and serious than the brief article in the link above.  Displaying and advertising fitness to females who do the selecting, as well as socially pleasing females and forming successful alliances, is also an ingrained male sexual strategy.  It is actually more effective at successful long term direct gene transmission to the next generation (at least when it comes to primate studies) than male dominance. 

Homo sapiens is definitively polymorphic when it comes to successful reproductive strategies, and if current observations of our nearest cladistic neighbors are any indication, all of them are hardwired into us by evolution.  Male dominance is one strategy, and it can be successful - but the fact that other strategies may actually have a higher incidence of successful gene transmission means that it is not the only one hardwired into our biology.

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