RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE

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KnightofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 3:57:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 The risks are centered upon the individual people involved and things they are or are not doing. I have just skimmed this thread and this comment jumped out at me and I very much agree with it's sentiments. I do believe that the individuals have the most significant impact on the healthy or unhealthy nature of a relationship for those involved in it than the type of relationship. I would say the type of relationship contribution to the healthy or unhealthy impact on a relationship is related to the suitability of that style/structure of a relationship to the individual. Then there is the suitability of the individuals with each other regardless of relationship type they adopt. Some people will be water and oil together, they just don't mix well. It all seems to come down to the individuals. But, just because someone says things are all fantastic doesn't mean it IS accurate or true! To quote Dr. House "PEOPLE LIE" they lie to each other and often they lie to themselves. This is not to say people always lie but seperating the truth from the lies can be somewhat frustrating, particularly in the online medium. Based on my experience of communities I have become familiar with and the individuals that live TPE dynamics, there is far more success in the online world than I see in the communities. Which causes me to be more skeptical of many in the online world of the authenticity of their claims. I even expect that many if not most question the authenticity of my own world that people are able to gather from the many posts from my family. It would rather cause me to question a person's reasoning skills if they didn't question my own relationship's authenticity. However, I am not concerned if they do or don't and often avoid the desire to defend what I have. It is what it is and I have no need to defend it or prove it exists.

KnightofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 4:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot But when you are in slavery it is risky to think, isn't it? In my world... it's a greater riks Not to think? But that is not to say the risks are eliminated but most clearly reduced.

sirsholly -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 4:09:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Chuckles, i always find it odd when someone posts this: quote: I really DON'T KNOW THE FUCK ABOUT ALL THESE THINGS SO DON'T BE OFFENDED BY THE QUESTIONS OF THIS IGNORANT ASSHOLE. Instead if someone is willing to REALLY enlighten me I would appreciate it very, very, very much. So let me get this straight OP, you are disagreeing based upon your enlightened ignorance and lack of knowledge on the subject people are discussing here?? quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I said this only to gain acceptance of people, because some were irritated. I don't consider myself neither ignorant nor asshole. It was said in affect. The one thing he says that i agree with....figures [8\|]

KnightofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 4:11:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot quote: There are Risks involved with any kind of relationship you establish with another human being in this world. Seriously, think about it for a moment. This is true. But risks vary enormously in intensity. Some are very small, some are quite significant, but reasonable, and some are extreme and quite unreasonable (such as playing Russian Roulette) You speaking about risks with regards to consequence of the risks occuring. But then there is also the aspect of probability of such a risk. There is the risk of being hit by a car and killed by crossing the street. But probability of the risk is increaces or decreases depending on how one crosses the street. It is very much like that in relationships. There is always a risk the relationship will end.. but how one lives the relationship could increase or decrease the probability of it ending.

sirsholly -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 4:47:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot Barelynangel, I am very aware of positive aspects of slavery. I mentioned them in my OP. I could write an essay about all the positive things I imagine that can be experienced in TPE or IE. Maybe I will even do it. I will write from my own perspective of all the positive, delightful experiences that I think that can be experienced in IE. With absolutely no experience, you are not aware of the positive aspects of slavery. What you are aware of, by your own admission, is only what you imagine. quote: Why are you so sure that slavery is right way for bestheadyet? Maybe it's not. I intentionally criticized your advice to her because I want her to be offered 2 different perspectives. In making any rational decision one must know both positive and negative aspects. That's why I criticized your advice to her. BarelyanAngel gives her perspective based on personal experience. Your perspective is based on your imagination only. I find it laughable that you feel you are qualified not only to offer advice but also to criticize the perspective of one who has experience. Should you be sincere in your desire that Bestheadyet be offered different perspectives, try stating your thoughts without the criticism of others who disagree with you. There is a reason you have two ears and one mouth, SocratesNot...to listen twice as much as you speak.

KnightofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 4:59:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I don't think this is the case. Jeff said how by owning whole slave, he actually wanted all of the aspects of her to be under his control. So he dictates her hair color, what will she it, what will she drink, who will she be friend with, even what will she think. I can't grasp how anything of her is actually left to herself. He can change her completely, make a new person, a new personality, with new value system. For me it seems that not much of her old self remained intact, if anything. This is silly... particularly the bolded part. First.... we as humans are propelled by the experiences of life to change. my old self is old! today I am me but tomorrow I will have a new me. Because I am not the same person I was 20 years ago in many respects should I be suddenly concerned or feel a loss of identity. A person's identity changes it is not a constant on the whole. Sometimes it will change to a minor degree and sometimes it changes to a greater degree. The problem is not that her old self doesn't remain in tact it's a question does she authentically accept and embrace the identity she is today? Second, Some individuals that change due to the influence of another. But dress me in a clown suit doesn't mean I will identify as a clown, Others may so identify as such. It is the same with those that choose a life of slavehood. You can change their hair and behaviors all you want. But unless they internalize such changes their identity will not evolve in manner that is consistent with the changes. In fact, the more distant the behaviors from the identity the more problematic and unhealthy the person's situation becomes. Internal enslavement requires in my view that the identity of self is consistent with the manifested behaviors that are observable. Thus, if the person's identity doesn't change internal enslavement is not possible even though one can dress like a clown. Lastly, because one's identity is consistent with the person's view of slavehood doesn't equate to the life being healthy and happy for the person. Internal enslavement to a person of dubious ethical and moral character can very well increase one's risk of of abuse or harm at the expenese of a healthy well-being and happiness. It seems to me that the choice of Master to be internally enslaved to is highly critical to the well-being of the slave.

mummyman321 -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 5:07:39 PM)
TPE and Internal Enslavement are not the same thing. They are not even close. Not even a little bit. A defintion of TPE from the book "Screw The Roses Give me the Thorns": "TPE is the empowerment of the Dominant BY the submissive's surrender to His/Her control. The power exchange is consensual and should be well negotiated. The depth of power yielded by the submissive is equal to the level of responsibility assumed by the Dominant." What is Internal Enslavement? Internal Enslavement ("IE") is a collection of ideas about how to take ownership of a slave, in a consensual context (ie where the submissive to be enslaved consents at the start of the process.) Why is it called Internal Enslavement? When a submissive is internally enslaved, he/she has internalised their slavery. Furthermore, the process of enslavement takes place within, even if His/her external, physical environment contributes to it. For this reason we make a distinction between Internal Enslavement and the External "Slave Training" schemes you often read about - approaches which concentrate on the form of slavery (speaking respectfully, assumming numbered "slave positions", acting in a "slavelike" manner) rather than on ownership which is the substance of slavery. TPE can be just for a session or it can turn into 24/7. TPE can happen between any 2 people and not necessarily a Dom(me) and sub. Internal Enslavement is the slave accepting their slavery willingly. This is not the same as TPE. I practice TPE but I am not a slave.

kyraofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 5:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Now here is the part 85% of the people won't like. You don't NEED to know what his thoughts are. Yuo don't need a choice. You don't have the right to know. Kinda harsh and scary concepts, yes? However, once you as a slave become comfortable with these concepts, your life will be a lot more feeling of secure and balance. Many slaves especially within the first year instinctively fight for controls they have had without thinking in other relationships. The control over their relationship, the control that they are "entitled" to certain things from their "partners" and the most instinctive, the right to know. Mine and angel's perspective of M/s differs in many ways, but I have to say that the idea of 'entitlement' on the slaves part can be very destructive to an M/s relationship. As a slave, the only thing I am entitled to is to not be intentionally harmed. After that, everything else is a privilege that he decides if I get it or not. Letting go of expectations and feelings of entitlement can be extremely freeing and bring great peace. However, this is not a concept that originates with internal enslavement. I learned the most about letting go of expectations by reading about Buddhism. I also agree with angel's other post that this is a good topic for discussion and I am glas to see it was moved back into the General section. Knight's Kyra

kyraofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 5:18:59 PM)
Years ago there was a thread on Entitlement if anyone is interested: Entitlement

SocratesNot -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 5:51:23 PM)
kyraofMists, I tend to think that total removal of entitlement, is very similar to Buddhist concept that only removal of desire can remove suffering, and when one wishes nothing, he can achieve bliss (Nirvana). Of course it is oversimplified. But there is one thing that doesn't click very well in my mind about this idea. Namely, I think that desire is one of the most important things in life and with removal of my desires, I would feel like a plant. Maybe this feeling would be nothing but pure bliss. Probably it would be bliss. I am quite sure it would be bliss. But still, I would feel like a plant in the state of bliss, not like a human being. Removing the idea that you are entitled to anything is not the same, but is very close to removing of desire. Both can bring freedom and bliss, Both can reduce stress and allow simpler living. But both turn you into plantish creature. There is a children's poem about this idea that I would like to mention: Sve sto raste... (Dusko Radovic ) Sve sto raste Everythin that grows htelo bi da raste desires to grow - Neka raste let it grow i treba da raste! it should really grow Sve sto cveta Everything that flourishes htelo bi da cveta... desires to flourish - Neka cveta let it flourish i treba da cveta! it should really flourish Neka gleda Let it look, sve sto ima oko, everything that has an eye svako krilo let every wing nek leti visoko! fly high in the sky Leteti, leteti, lepo je leteti! to fly, to fly, it's beautiful to fly Živeti, živeti, lepo je živeti! to live to live , it's beautiful to live Sve sto leti everything that flies htelo bi da leti... desires to fly - Neka leti, let it fly i treba da leti! it should really fly Sve sto peva everything that sings htelo bi da peva... desires to sing - Neka peva, let it sing i treba da peva it should really sing Neka skace let it jump sve sto ima nogu, everything that has a leg neka trci let them run svi koji to mogu! all of them that can Skakati, skakati, lepo je skakati! to jump, to jump, it's beautiful to jump Živeti, živeti, lepo je živeti! to live to live it's beautiful to live Sve sto trci everything that runs htelo bi da trci... desires to run - Neka trci, let it run i treba da trci! it should really run Sve sto kljuca everything that pecks htelo bi da kljuca... desires to peck - Neka kljuca, let it peck i treba da kljuca! it should really peck Neka peva let it sing, sve sto ima glas, everything that has a voice niko lepse, no one more beutifully, vedrije od nas. more happily than us Pevati, pevati, lepo je pevati! to sing, to sing, it's beautiful to sing Živeti, živeti, lepo je živeti! to live, to live, it's beautiful to live I want to desire and I want to get what I desire. If I don't get it I will be pissed off. And I want to be pissed off. I want to enjoy this rollercoaster of desiring, getting it, being happy, not getting being pissed off, desirinig more, etc It is sometimes dark and stressful, but I like it more than platlike serenity of no desires and no entitlement.

Jeffff -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 5:56:56 PM)
A children's poem from a poster with a child's mentality. I will miss this post

SocratesNot -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 5:59:19 PM)
Jefff, I think it is very good to stay always child in heart. Being a little child in heart is not equal to being childish. You would benefit from reading "The Little Prince"

Jeffff -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:01:35 PM)
I agree there is a huge difference between childlike and childish. It is a shame not everyone knows the difference

KnightofMists -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:12:56 PM)
quote: Removing the idea that you are entitled to anything is not the same, but is very close to removing of desire. Both can bring freedom and bliss, Both can reduce stress and allow simpler living. A lack of entitlement doesn't equate to a lack of desires and no it's not even close to the same. The fact that you consider it as such shows a lack of understanding of the concepts.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:16:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail By far the largest risk a Master faces with internally enslaved gash it that they may get woozy over your mastery and stab you inadvertently in the tonsil with a fork causing you to bleed to death as they feed you all dreamy and hormone washed like, and too oogly eyed to call the EMT. Ron, you allow forks? my dog thanks you for the popcorn i spit when i read that...

SocratesNot -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:20:55 PM)
KnightofMists I am not that stupid as you think, and there is certain connection between entitlement and desire. For example desire is when she desires that you treat her certain way. Entitlement is when she thinks she deserves to be treated certain way by you. The only way to reduce entitlement to zero is to reduce her self-worth to zero. Because only worthless beings deserve nothing. However, this is impossible. She will always have some self-worth and even if she thinks she isn't entitled to anything, she will feel as she is. The connection between entitlement and desire is in the fact that she usually desires the same things she feels she is entitled to and these two feelings (desire and entitlement) usually mix together in her psyche. So finally, if she really feels this bliss and freedom, it is probably because desire is removed, not entitlement. Desire is more basic primary feeling. Entitlement is derived from desire and self-worth. So actual removal of entitlement, (if ever really happens) comes not from removing self-worth, but from removing desire.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:26:42 PM)
quote: Because only worthless beings deserve nothing. Which proves you don't understand most eastern philosophies any more than you have shown to understand western ones. It's very impressive how you seriously believe you actually understand SO much when it's so painfully obviously the contrary.

porcelaine -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:29:13 PM)
SocratesNot, I'm curious if you've cultivated a list of positive attributes of Internal Enslavement thus far. Or are we still focusing on the dangers are noted by you? It would appear you'd have quite a bit to draw from at this point. ~porcelaine

SocratesNot -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:36:00 PM)
Lucky Albatros, definition of deserve is (from dictionary): to have earned or to be given something because of the way you have behaved or the qualities you have: the way you behave and qualities you have = worthiness deserving nothing = worthlessness

SocratesNot -> RE: Risks of internal enslavement aka TPE (5/27/2010 6:47:08 PM)
quote: SocratesNot, I'm curious if you've cultivated a list of positive attributes of Internal Enslavement thus far. Or are we still focusing on the dangers are noted by you? It would appear you'd have quite a bit to draw from at this point. ~porcelaine Yes I have. Positive things about being a slave: - feelings of belonging to your Master, being loved, cherished for what you are, being useful to him etc - elimination of stress by removing the need to worry about making your own decisions - the bliss that you feel as a result that you are not entitled to anything (reasons why I described in previous post), in this situation you don't expect anything, everything that comes you receive like a treat, like a free gift - adventure and excitement, you are never sure what comes next because you are not the "driver" of your life. You follow where he leads, and this is an adventure in itself - excitement about having to obey always - it becomes so easy and automatic, when he gives you command you can relax as if you are on autopilot your body follows his direction almost of its own volition - in case of S/M there are these endorphins released when you experience painful scene, and they cause euphoria - feelings of being completely understood, completely researched and studied, without any masks, naked figuratively in front of your Master - ability to please him, to love him, to serve him, and to enjoy all the good feelings that come from this. I hope I guessed something correctly.

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