RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations?

RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 8:29:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot OK, I'll take your advice. This type of relationship is definitely not for me. I wouldn't be able to be in such relationship, maybe some other form of D/s could be good for me, but this kind of M/s or TPE is definitely not for me. For the record, it is not for either me or Carol in theory either. Our relationship is a unique product of the two of us being together.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 8:34:42 AM)
Fast reply A slave can do anything they want (including topping their master and owning another slave) as long as they have permission.

SocratesNot -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 8:47:47 AM)
quote: Fast reply A slave can do anything they want (including topping their master and owning another slave) as long as they have permission. This is probably the best and the simplest answer yet. I hope that every reasonable master would give his slave permission to pursue their careers, goals and aspirations. I can't even imagine the situation in which the permission would not be given to such things. The possibility of such situation makes me feel uneasy.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 8:49:53 AM)
quote: Does he / she have to give up all of his / her plans, ambitions and aspirations if he / she wants to be a slave? it has been this slave's experience that this particular slave surrenders ALL to Master and He decides what He will allow, encourage or deny as far as what this slave's activites and aspirations will be as our relationship goes forward. this slave's ambition, plan and aspiration is to please Him, however He sees fit. this slave doesn't consider herself, as a slave, to be generic in that regard...considering that other satsified slaves don't surrender ALL, as well as have other ambitions, plans and aspirations outside of their service to their Owner/Master. again, as with the majority of your questions, there are no absolutes with regards to unique individuals crafting a fulfiling relationship together - regardless of the label you attach to them. asking if slaves surrender everything to the will of their Owner/Master is like asking if Fem Doms use strap-ons with their partners. to each their very-unique-snowflake-resembling-relationship's own.[:)]

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:05:18 AM)
quote: I can't even imagine the situation in which the permission would not be given to such things. The possibility of such situation makes me feel uneasy. That's because you are extremely limited in your understanding of complex relationship dynamics and possibilities. Say a slave is a lawyer. This career, while fulfilling, takes up so much time and energy that she is not able to serve in the way the master requires. So the master orders the slave to change what they do. Is it truly so hard for you to understand why people would choose truth of themselves in their relationship above all else? Now, the slave can serve as desired.

LadySilver0523 -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:05:26 AM)
Ho hum... Hmm?? Oh... OH! laughs and smiles Yes, I'm back for a bit and clicked on this thread first.... Hmmm... reads Yes yes, typical redundant questions from the penut gallery. Well ... I don't even really need to say anything in particualar. Everyone else here has already taken care of that. :) I'll just post this for some sort of attempted comic relief. :D waves Sees ya all around! *bows out gracefuly*

ownedbyPF -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:16:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot quote: Fast reply A slave can do anything they want (including topping their master and owning another slave) as long as they have permission. This is probably the best and the simplest answer yet. I hope that every reasonable master would give his slave permission to pursue their careers, goals and aspirations. I can't even imagine the situation in which the permission would not be given to such things. The possibility of such situation makes me feel uneasy. I have been so good at staying out of this... and now, now I've cracked! Everyone keeps saying the same thing over and over to you and you just aren't hearing it. It is to each their own. Just because you A) Can't imagine it. B) Don't want it. Doesn't mean that A) It doesn't exist and B) That others don't want it. You ask questions and say that you are trying to figure things out, but then you go on about what you want, what you need, what you find acceptable, and what you deem healthy. Well, if you already know all of these things, why do you keep asking? Why can't you say to yourself... X is what works for me. Z is what works for someone else. Period. If you don't want to give authority to someone for what you watch, what you read, what you wear, what time you go to bed, your money, every aspect of your life...... then, like kyra said.... don't have that kind of relationship. It isn't hard to figure that out. On the other hand, if you are like me, and want every single aspect of your life controlled.... then have one of those! Perhaps it's the control word that is giving you problems. It seems like you are saying.... okay, so they control everything, but they don't really, right? I mean really they let you do x,y, and z, right? Otherwise it would be bad, and it wouldn't work for me, so like when people say that, that isn't reallllly what they mean, right? The answer to that is no. Some really do control it all. If I said, can I get a job? Master would say.... no. It doesn't benefit him, or our house for me to work. So there ya go... imagine away. If I said I really want to watch this movie that's on late, can I? He'd say no, I want you in my bed. If I said, can I have a piece of gum? He'd say will there be any left? And if I said no, then he would say......guess...... no. If I said Can I vote for so and so? He'd say why? And I'd say because of blah blah and blah. He would then say... yep, that sounds reasonable, or he would say, No, so and so will do a better job because of blah blah and blah. (Are you getting this?) Total authroity over every aspect... if it makes you go yuck! Then don't do it. If it makes you warm and fuzzy, then do it! ~s

cassandria -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:26:17 AM)
There have been some interesting (not to mention highly amusing lol) responses to the OP's post...and since I'm new, I thought I'd hop into it and add my own thoughts, if that's all right.. In a Master/slave relationship, you are owned. That means ALL of you. Including your choices. And even if it was agreed you could do those things? The concept of "I changed my mind, no you cannot" happens. It's a relationship where one has control, and the other one does not. It's really that simple. Which is why some of us need it, crave it, and will willingly subject ourselves to occasional insanity to gain it lol If you don't think you'd be happy having someone controlling your life, completely, then might I suggest passionately following your desires into another direction? Just a thought.

SocratesNot -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:26:30 AM)
quote: That's because you are extremely limited in your understanding of complex relationship dynamics and possibilities. Say a slave is a lawyer. This career, while fulfilling, takes up so much time and energy that she is not able to serve in the way the master requires. So the master orders the slave to change what they do. Is it truly so hard for you to understand why people would choose truth of themselves in their relationship above all else? Now, the slave can serve as desired. What if the slave is the best lawyer in his city? What if he won many difficult cases and wants to advance in career? What if all of his peers find him extremely talented? What if he feels that his calling in life is to be a lawyer. And then one day, the mastes says - no you won't be a lawyer anymore. I would not be able to accept this. Who can, perfect for them, but I wouldn't be able to compromise such things.

BitaTruble -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:39:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot What if the slave is the best lawyer in his city? What if he won many difficult cases and wants to advance in career? What if all of his peers find him extremely talented? What if he feels that his calling in life is to be a lawyer. And then one day, the mastes says - no you won't be a lawyer anymore. I would not be able to accept this. Who can, perfect for them, but I wouldn't be able to compromise such things. Easy.. then don't. SN - you have the option to make the label fit you.. you don't have to fit some preconceived notion of a label. I don't know your first name, but I'm going to call you Jack. So, Jack, that's your label. Jack likes ABC. Jack tolerates DEF. Jack will never, ever consider XYZ. Go forth and find your Jill. Talk to her. Ask her about ABCDEF and XYZ. See if she's on the same page and if not, move on to Mary or Bertha or Lucy until you find a person, not a label, who fits you. Breath, live, be happy.

porcelaine -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:42:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot What if the slave is the best lawyer in his city? What if he won many difficult cases and wants to advance in career? What if all of his peers find him extremely talented? What if he feels that his calling in life is to be a lawyer. And then one day, the mastes says - no you won't be a lawyer anymore. I would not be able to accept this. Who can, perfect for them, but I wouldn't be able to compromise such things. That will unfold in a few ways: The slave avoids getting into relationships with dominants that will require him to sacrifice his career. There are slaves that work and find fulfillment in doing so. Or their employment is a part of financial slavery. Perhaps the dominant doesn't work or is retired. Assuming the slave didn't mind that setup - meaning the focus was on remaining employed - that's another feasible option. The slave makes the sacrifice in deference to the relationship and station and they live happily ever after or he returns to CM later claiming abuse. There's a catch to option one of course. The dominant can change his mind later on. Now the slave must confront what's most important - his captivity and loyalty to the dominant - or his aspirations and career instead. Where the individual leans will heavily depend on how they view the role, the person they're involved with, and the importance they've associated with having a career as well. All three factor into the decision. And add in fear as well. Because in all honesty the person may truly wish to take the plunge but other issues or fears may prohibit him from doing so. Sometimes the mind and heart are not well aligned. ~porcelaine

SocratesNot -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:42:13 AM)
quote: Easy.. then don't. SN - you have the option to make the label fit you.. you don't have to fit some preconceived notion of a label. I don't know your first name, but I'm going to call you Jack. So, Jack, that's your label. Jack likes ABC. Jack tolerates DEF. Jack will never, ever consider XYZ. Go forth and find your Jill. Talk to her. Ask her about ABCDEF and XYZ. See if she's on the same page and if not, move on to Mary or Bertha or Lucy until you find a person, not a label, who fits you. Breath, live, be happy. Smart advice, cutely put in words :)

ownedbyPF -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:48:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot quote: That's because you are extremely limited in your understanding of complex relationship dynamics and possibilities. Say a slave is a lawyer. This career, while fulfilling, takes up so much time and energy that she is not able to serve in the way the master requires. So the master orders the slave to change what they do. Is it truly so hard for you to understand why people would choose truth of themselves in their relationship above all else? Now, the slave can serve as desired. What if the slave is the best lawyer in his city? What if he won many difficult cases and wants to advance in career? What if all of his peers find him extremely talented? What if he feels that his calling in life is to be a lawyer. And then one day, the mastes says - no you won't be a lawyer anymore. I would not be able to accept this. Who can, perfect for them, but I wouldn't be able to compromise such things. I bolded the above sentence. This is what you keep coming back around to.... I wouldn't/couldn't/never etc. That's fine... you don't have to. That's the point. If you can't/won't do that, great. Someone else will. Great. All you need to worry about is what YOU will/won't do. Me? I tick for my Master. It is what my driving force is. It is my being true to my unique self. Being a lawyer, CEO, pick your thing, will never fulfill me. So for me this wouldn't be an issue because I am driven to do/be HIS. Period. That is my end all, be all. Want me to go to law school? Okay. Want me to quit my career? Okay. SN, you are seeing it as someone driven to be the lawyer, or doctor or whatever... that the individual would be giving up something of themselves if they were told to quit. For me, being anything other than a slave, is giving up my entire self. It is my driving desire. It is my ambition, hope, dream, and desire. Again, not how it works in your brain, got that, but you need to get that what works in your head, doesn't work in mine either. ~s

Mercnbeth -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:51:40 AM)
quote: What if the slave is the best lawyer in his city? What if he won many difficult cases and wants to advance in career? What if all of his peers find him extremely talented? What if he feels that his calling in life is to be a lawyer. And then one day, the mastes says - no you won't be a lawyer anymore. I would not be able to accept this. How sad for you that you put monetary, or reputation status ahead of personal comfort and satisfaction within a relationship. Obviously, you are self centered. Nothing wrong with that, but those principles would be better applied, and appropriate for a business partnership and not a relationship of any kind whether D/s is a factor or not. "Can a slave have plans....?" Sure - as long as they serve the relationship and are not directed to the exclusive consideration of the slave's needs. However the same should be true for the other side. There is no 'slave' independent of a Master. There is no 'Master' independent of a slave. There is no chance of a successful long term relationship without the both the 'Master' and 'slave' submitting to the plans and aspirations of the relationship over the plans and aspirations of either individual. The biggest problem is a situation where the "be careful what you wish for...." comes into play. It's been my first hand experience that uncompromising submission where the partnerships "plans and aspirations" take priority over either individual is very rare. Your example is one of 'conditional' submission. FUN, and very common, but personally unsatisfying. Your position is also common. When your thought process and goals point to "what's in it for me" taking priority over "what's in it for us"; you are neither Master or slave no matter what physical or mental dynamic you enjoy in the meantime. You are in the relationship as an 'investor' and more likely to leave when the return on investment isn't meeting expectations. It is pragmatic and, as I said, more appropriate for a business relationship versus personal. If you can't wrap your mind around that concept and find a partner where the goals and aspirations are compatible and complimentary don't contemplate any relationship.

cassandria -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:52:28 AM)
See, you couldn't compromise such things, but me, I wouldn't hardly blink. Why? Because I am a slave. And what I derive from my Master (futuristic, at this point lol) is so deeply important to me, so beyond any career or desire I would have, that it doesn't compare. You can't imagine giving it up, and I can't imagine not obeying his word. Because there is an awareness that within the Master/slave relationship that he has dominion over me, and I submit to that dominion. And within that exchange, there is trust. And I would trust that if something such as this was asked of me, that there is extremely good reason for it, because I don't submit to a moronic, idiotically-inclined, selfishly derranged loon. That's why.

cassandria -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 9:57:25 AM)
and ya, what mercnbeth said too - for me, I would be placing trust in his direction in my life, that what is happening is for the good of us, as Master/slave. I expect that he looks closely at his responsibilities, and mine, and adjusts them according to what seems to work best. Using logic, using practicality, using his understanding of me and him. I can't think of a relationship where you do not have to align your goals, your dreams, your ambitions towards that of your partner. Just, in a Master/slave relationship, that partner has the final say, if you are a slave. There is an understanding that you need to follow his lead, and it's an understanding you submitted to from the onset, and it's how the relationship functions.

SocratesNot -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 10:00:54 AM)
quote: That will unfold in a few ways: The slave avoids getting into relationships with dominants that will require him to sacrifice his career. There are slaves that work and find fulfillment in doing so. Or their employment is a part of financial slavery. Perhaps the dominant doesn't work or is retired. Assuming the slave didn't mind that setup - meaning the focus was on remaining employed - that's another feasible option. The slave makes the sacrifice in deference to the relationship and station and they live happily ever after or he returns to CM later claiming abuse. There's a catch to option one of course. The dominant can change his mind later on. Now the slave must confront what's most important - his captivity and loyalty to the dominant - or his aspirations and career instead. Where the individual leans will heavily depend on how they view the role, the person they're involved with, and the importance they've associated with having a career as well. All three factor into the decision. And add in fear as well. Because in all honesty the person may truly wish to take the plunge but other issues or fears may prohibit him from doing so. Sometimes the mind and heart are not well aligned. ~porcelaine Again, you described it perfectly. You ask what is most important to the submissive. For others I don't know, but for me the most important thing is to be myself. This means to have my own career, interests, political and religious beliefs, opinions about the things in the world, attitudes, hobbies, goals, aspirations and to be able to fully and freely pursue them. To develop my intellect on my own. To develop my own literary, cinematic and musical tastes. To vote for whom I want to vote. To attend classes which I want to attend etc. To fight for social issues which I want to fight. To give to charity which I want to give. To be in NGOs which I want, to choose friends on my own and to be free to have anyone for my friend. To be an active and independent member of large society. This is most important for me. If there is a domme who would encourage me in pursuing these goals and who would respect all of them, while I am at the same time submissive to her in domestic affairs and I surrender control over my sexuality, I'm doing household chores, running errands, BDSM play at home) this would be a perfect domme for me. So I am willing to surrender control over my sexuality. I am willing to work for the domme. I am willing to be a bottom in many forms of BDSM play. I am willing to be her slave at home. But, in large society I want to be absolutely independent. (except in some little forms of play that would also apply outside) Even more importantly, I want to be politically, intellectually, religiously, socially and economically independent. I want to be the creator of my life philosophy and my attitudes and opinions.

Kana -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 10:06:11 AM)
She can have all the plans and aspirations she wants...as long as she understands the final decision is mine, which it is.

VirginPotty -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 10:09:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I think this is a legitimate question. If I entered the M/s relationship as a slave, I would find it relatively easy to serve my mistress, do make her life easier, to suffer the pain for her, to work for her, to be controlled sexually, etc, but I would feel very uncomfortable if she tried to prevent me from pursuing my dreams and ambitions and aspirations. If you have dreams & aspirations outside of servitude then you need to find yourself someone who'll allow you to have these fulfilled. Rare is the Master/Mistress who'll keep you chained to a bedpost while they're gone but I'm sure they're out there & their slaves are perfectly content. **Eta, as Kana so eloquently put it quote:* She can have all the plans and aspirations she wants...as long as she understands the final decision is mine, which it is.

cloudboy -> RE: Can a slave have plans and aspirations? (6/9/2010 10:15:23 AM)
There is a femsub poster on here that I follow who posted about how her Master of several years "shut her down" and did not let her pursue certain activities. She indicated that the relationship was a good one, but that after she broke up with him, she regarded "being shut down" as LOST TIME and opportunities wasted. Since then she has always referred to herself as NOT a "no limits" slave. As for Dommes and Doms, I see two types: (1) The its all about me-type, ergo the slave comes 2nd; and (2) I have control over my partner, but I value and nurture their development as a person. In general the (1) types have struck me as more frustrated with life in general and the "impossibility of others" in particular. ----- Footnote: I think all your implied questions readily transfer to anyone getting married, e.g. what happens to my individual freedom afterward? Footnote II: Most people are better positioned to enter into a serious relationship after taking care of their individual goals like education, travel, etc. Relationships don't do well with one person taking off on the other to pursue individual goals over an extended time. This might also be why rich people end up getting divorced so much (I'm think celebrities) -- each person has so much freedom and opportunity to do what they individually want to do -- that marriage feels more like a prison than an intimate, rewarding support structure. ------- I think you are externalizing your own anxieties over commitment. In the end, it is you who determines the commitments you will make. There is also a famous saying about moving forward, namely, "when you cross the river, burn the boat."

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