RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand.

RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:22:40 AM)
And even citizens work under the table routinely--in construction especially (I know a lot of contractors). Not to mention illegal activities.

Jeffff -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:26:06 AM)
Yes, that used to be very popular in the trades. You'd get laid off, collect unemployment and work for cash.

xBullx -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:31:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Arpig, one word, "minefields." We currently guard S. Korea's border with mines, no-man's lands and Troops and all kinds of sensors and a mouse can't get in from N. Korea but they know it. I believe we have 27,000 Troops in S. Korea guarding Their border! And the problem isn't so much Canada but Mexico, Cent. America and the Carribean countries. We could have that Mexican border locked down tight in 48 hours with Troops. I believe our border with Mexico is 1,948 miles long so that's more than doable especialy with so many Troops comming home from Iraq and Afganistan in the next two years. Hell, we have what, 30,000 Troops up in Washington state with the 7th infantry at Ft. Lewis? (Anyone know?) At Ft. Stewart in Georgia there's I think 60,000 Troops. Here in S. Carolina there's another Ft. with 22,000 I believe and just up the road from me we have Ft. Bragg with a HUGE number of Troops, (100,000?) And then you have Ft Hood in Texas, Ft Cambell in Kentucky, Ft Leonard Wood in Missouri, and more Army Forts in Calif, Nevada, Virginia,Florida and a bunch of other states with probably 300-400,000 more Troops.. We could put 90,000 Troops along that border without breaking a sweat. And then there's about 200,000 Marines give or take. Some areas of that border could be controlled for hundreds of miles with only 2-3,000 Troops given the remotness of the area and topography. Do you think that idiot Obama will do that though? He should have done it in his first week in office! The interests of the American People aren't a very high priority with him, we're in line behind people who are in our country illegally it seems! He listens to "special interests" and not the American People. We're going to do some "talking" this November and let's see if Obama listens then. If he doesn't come 2012 he can go back to Harvard. The logistics and tactics aren't the problem. I'm not sure I like the idea of minefields, perhaps signs that tell the illegals to stay back and beware of "mines", as opposed to posting signs to Americans to stay back due to illegals and violence. I actually agree with the comments coming out in the news now that the left won't support securing the border because the right won't support immigration reform. I also believe that the left won't actually support a guest worker program because they want to make these illegals their new supporters in the voting box. So everybody's doing shit for back door political reasons and in the mean time we become more and more a nation divided which sounds truly appealing to a man named Putin.

xBullx -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:34:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania My brother tells me the same shit all the time... "You should move to Iraq, you'd be happier".. He even tells his own mother that when she disagrees with him about politics... That sort of discourse has NO PLACE in this conversation..... why even bring it up? It isn't a relevant fucking statement whatsoever! You say the words, fucking own them. I do own my words.... It's you that won't own up to your underhanded tactics, playing the innocent victim. I never said a damn thing about Iraq, don't try and confuse the focus of this discussion.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:36:23 AM)
quote: I also believe that the left won't actually support a guest worker program because they want to make these illegals their new supporters in the voting box. That's not why (that's actually a Republican fear-based opposition) -- it's because they fear union voters will be alienated.

xBullx -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:51:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff There would still be employers who would hire illegals. It is easier for them. you give a guy a few hundred bucks in cash every week and call it a day. No muss, no fuss, no paper work. At some point you have got to crack down on employers. Having said that, a few years ago I had a guy who worked for me. He must have had phony documentation because we demand it when you are hired. After maybe 18 months it came out that he was illegal. I liked him, he was a good employee and a good guy. Shortly after I learned about it he quit for a better job. I always wondered if I should have turned him in. The easy answer is, yes I should have. In practice....not so easy. Thanks Jeff, I appreciate you owning up to reality. It is hard to look a man in the eye you have came to respect and say good bye. A truck wash I go to regularly had their second shift manager have a similar situation. He had to "vanish" one day. I never got to say good bye to him, I really liked him, he wasn't Mexican though, he was from El Salvador. I really think the guest worker program is the best way to *start* controlling the issue on the empolyer/employee side of things.

xBullx -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 9:57:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery That's not why (that's actually a Republican fear-based opposition) -- it's because they fear union voters will be alienated. I won't argue this point. I won't retract my point either. Both points make to much sense. The fact is that many Hispanics that immigrate in family units are rather religious and would most likely side to the right of center. That being the case the Reps would stand to benefit. I also see it doesn't take any great measure of encouragement to get the new workers to join the unions once they are here legally. At least where I live.

Jeffff -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:04:13 AM)
And like it or not... Unions are dying. The laborers working on the expressway here voted to strike. They make 35.00 to 40.00 an hour. The general public is not going to feel sorry for them just because they can't get a raise.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:09:24 AM)
Their political power isn't what people fantasize it to be either. The union leaders make endorsements. Members do whatever they want at the ballot box. They aren't the political machines they once were. People today watch TV and let it do the thinking for them. Jeffff--are the workers striking over pay raises? If so, yeah, economically not going to happen, but they could be opposing some other measure/condition/issue. Just asking.

servantforuse -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:14:09 AM)
Right Music, As a union member for over 30 years members no longer tow the union line. In the CWA probably 50 % vote for republicans.

Jeffff -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:15:22 AM)
It is pay raises.......it seems they are going to settle for 2.5 %

Musicmystery -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:16:21 AM)
Given that inflation is just over 2%, that's not unreasonable.

Jeffff -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:23:09 AM)
No.. except for the fact that many folks are either working for less or not working at all. I am not arguing whether they deserve it or not. But perception is huge and how many out of work laborers are there. At a time like this, it looks bad and that can hurt everyone down the road.

Musicmystery -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:25:40 AM)
Jeffff, Granted, a PR problem. But the company presumably is charging prices reflecting the change in inflation. Not to increase wages accordingly is a pay cut, and one that merely gives the company a windfall. So the workers' position is not shocking. Now, if the company were struggling and short on orders...that's different. But clearly they have the work. If the company underbid the job and didn't account for inflation--poor planning on their part. If that were the only way to continue, they should have gone to the union first. Since they're willing to settle, we can presume that's not the case. They tried to keep wages flat, while membership insisted on cost of living parity. If there's a non-union company that can compete with this, fine. That doesn't appear to be the case either. Anyway, this is a tangent from the OP. Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Jeffff -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:30:14 AM)
I agree. I just think it is short sighted for everyone involved. On the other hand,, it is Chicago. Someone approved the bids. That someone probably put a nice addition on his summer place in Michigan. Someone has to purchase the concrete. That someone is probably driving a nice new Lexus. I have accidentally derailed this thread. Sorry, I never do this....accidentally..:)

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:34:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx so when I want a more sweeping viewpoint I come here and read, ask a question or stir you guys up on an issue. As you ask for a more sweeping viewpoint ... I will throw mine out. First of all ... when you say border ... I think of Canada/USA ... NOT the one with south of the United States ! [;)] Because frankly ... where I live, the country immediately to the south of us ... is Canada! That said ... we used to have a thriving economy that was really interdependent here. People came and went ... just like we were crossing a state line. So my take on this issue is similar to this quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream The whole border thing is ridonkulous It sure seems to me, that a lot of "Border Security" money ... is being wasted ... protecting ourselves from ourselves. I carry a USA passport ... and usually get thru Canadian customs in minutes. But getting back into the USA ... is a humiliating, despicable experience. One that is frequently commented on here ... very unfavorably ... You might not like this viewpoint, but remember .... you asked for a more sweeping viewpoint. And some of the views ... are going to be DIFFERENT ... than those in Nebraska.

heartcream -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:35:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff There would still be employers who would hire illegals. It is easier for them. you give a guy a few hundred bucks in cash every week and call it a day. No muss, no fuss, no paper work. At some point you have got to crack down on employers. Having said that, a few years ago I had a guy who worked for me. He must have had phony documentation because we demand it when you are hired. After maybe 18 months it came out that he was illegal. I liked him, he was a good employee and a good guy. Shortly after I learned about it he quit for a better job. I always wondered if I should have turned him in. The easy answer is, yes I should have. In practice....not so easy. I dont agree.

Jeffff -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:37:50 AM)
I get that....... I didn't. But if I am going to holler about hiring illegals, perhaps I should have the stones to turn them in. Like most things, what is clear in theory can get muddied in practice.

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 10:55:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff No.. except for the fact that many folks are either working for less or not working at all. I am not arguing whether they deserve it or not. But perception is huge and how many out of work laborers are there. At a time like this, it looks bad and that can hurt everyone down the road. I myself, am not a laborer, and am kind of oblivious to the practices in construction and other such industries. I am sure there are many issues ... to enforcing existing laws ... and I would think ... at somepoint, a crack down on those who hire is the only way to solve what ever problem there is. But as you point out, and a restaurant owner did tell me, too ... a lot of illegals have forged paperwork. So it seems to me ... that some how ... the solution lies somewhere other than increasing border guards ... Kind of reminds me of closing the barn door ... after the animals have all got out.

xBullx -> RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. (7/4/2010 11:05:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx so when I want a more sweeping viewpoint I come here and read, ask a question or stir you guys up on an issue. As you ask for a more sweeping viewpoint ... I will throw mine out. First of all ... when you say border ... I think of Canada/USA ... NOT the one with south of the United States ! [;)] Because frankly ... where I live, the country immediately to the south of us ... is Canada! That said ... we used to have a thriving economy that was really interdependent here. People came and went ... just like we were crossing a state line. So my take on this issue is similar to this quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream The whole border thing is ridonkulous It sure seems to me, that a lot of "Border Security" money ... is being wasted ... protecting ourselves from ourselves. I carry a USA passport ... and usually get thru Canadian customs in minutes. But getting back into the USA ... is a humiliating, despicable experience. One that is frequently commented on here ... very unfavorably ... You might not like this viewpoint, but remember .... you asked for a more sweeping viewpoint. And some of the views ... are going to be DIFFERENT ... than those in Nebraska. I can appreciate your point of view. And while our entire border is to be considered it seems to me your comments here are only analyzing it from your particular jurisdiction. But your point is taken. A question if I might......Have any of those pesky Yukon neighbors of yours skipped our border and killed any Alaskans lately?

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