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Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs - 8/7/2010 11:44:41 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I have this pet peeve that has been developing lately. Once in a while we have a couple of threads come up that illustrate to me that there are a myriad of labels to attach to submissives that really have no dominant counterparts, and these labels are negative ones. Now, for me, this isn't so much an issue, because I do not involve myself with people who like to label a person instead of dealing with them, but it is a reminder of just the kinda stuff submissive peoples have to put up with.

I just wanted to ask, what are the negative labels that dominants get tagged with, besides maybe "wannabe" or "fake"? Where are the threads labelled with terms meant to denigrate them? I am not suggesting that we come up with them, in fact I wouldn't like it if we did.

The fact of the matter is many of these terms did not start out with the intention of being a negative label. SAM is a bottom sort person that gets off on being beaten for being a smart ass. A bedroom submissive is someone who gets off submitting during sex, a bottom is someone who is not submissive but enjoys the bottom role, a do-me is someone who likes to be done on their terms according to their fantasies. TFTB is a bottom that is instructing a top while being in the bottom role. A brat is a submissive that enjoys being naughty and maybe her dom enjoys it too.

Why is any of the above used as an insult to people, or used to denigrate their "realness"? I can tell you, I contain multitudes and I can envision myself doing any of the above for fun depending on my partner and what he likes. I do not understand using these labels as a way to measure the character of a person, or their orientation. They were terms used to describe different dynamics, but they have been twisted into barbs.

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Post #: 1

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 11:53:10 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I just wanted to ask, what are the negative labels that dominants get tagged with, besides maybe "wannabe" or "fake"?

You need to read more closely. In the general public dominant in it's darker light is seen as all sorts of synonyms for "asshole". Here, on the boards, there is the general assumption that if somehow, something didn't work then it is pretty much because the Dom was an asshole just wanting to score some quick pussy before he tossed her aside.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 2

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:02:32 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious

I've recently debated one of the labels mentioned on another thread. One of the major problems with that ideology is a submissive/slave's willingness to embrace and/or validate the label rather than refute its applicability and define the behavior in verbiage both can understand with recognizable associations. Unfortunately, the practice continues because it largely goes unquestioned and challenged. Calling someone those things simply suggests they're behaving this way at a given moment in relation to the person they're dealing with. But to posit this is who you are is pretty far reaching in my opinion.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 3

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:02:53 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I have not seen that... Seriously. I have seen submissives that come here telling us their dominant wants them to find a sister sub, even though they have never met their dom, and that sort of thing gets labelled, but I have not seen an assumption that the dom is always an asshole. In fact I see a lot of "you need to talk to him about this" sorta answers

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 4

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:11:48 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious

I've recently debated one of the labels mentioned on another thread. One of the major problems with that ideology is a submissive/slave's willingness to embrace and/or validate the label rather than refute its applicability and define the behavior in verbiage both can understand with recognizable associations. Unfortunately, the practice continues because it largely goes unquestioned and challenged. Calling someone those things simply suggests they're behaving this way at a given moment in relation to the person they're dealing with. But to posit this is who you are is pretty far reaching in my opinion.

~porcelaine

Consider this my challenge to such notions

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 5

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:16:45 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I see a lot of "that guy is an asshole" posts. Asshole, abuser, jerk, wannabe, player, user, the list goes on, doesn't it? It's that the labels are more generic than scene related, I think.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 6

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:17:00 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

Perhaps Julia we are both more sensitive to the negative stereotypes which attach to our own position? That'd be reasonable. I can guarantee you that rightly or wrongly, I feel there is a very, very quick rush to negatively judge the dom here on collarme.

To the rest of your question, I can maybe clarify something. Let's use the word "brat". I'm not real big into "the lifestyle". So when someone says the word "brat" to me, I process it by normal English standards and in the English I learned that's not a descriptor for anyone I would have in my social circle. Now... folks who have fun using a bit of naughtiness to instigate play.... that's just in the "Not my cup o' tea" category.

It's possible that a lot of the terms you listed fall into that same camp. In general, I have oft-said and I stand by it, I personally believe the best type of relationship is whatever produces the most smiles for those involved.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:32:24 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

~FR~
I see a lot of times that D-types get called asshole, jerk, abusive, prick, wannabe, etc etc etc. It really isn't just s-types that get all the insults. For that matter there are bratty Dom/mes too. But my point is, those on BOTH sides of the kneel get insults and negative labels hurled at them. As far as bedroom submissives are concerned, if that's what they want, more power to 'em....Find a bedroom Dom/me. They're out there. If someone's "just a bottom," find just a Top that likes that, etc etc. I agree that it's pointless for someone to insult a dynamic just because it's not his/her own choice. There's someone for everyone.

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 8

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:49:55 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I can envision myself

It's envisage Julia.

Envisage: 'to conceive'.

The question ain't no riddle.....and the answer really shouldn't need pointing out to you.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 9

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 12:55:19 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have not seen that... Seriously. I have seen submissives that come here telling us their dominant wants them to find a sister sub, even though they have never met their dom, and that sort of thing gets labelled, but I have not seen an assumption that the dom is always an asshole. In fact I see a lot of "you need to talk to him about this" sorta answers

Really? You missed all of those threads that were labeling male tops as abusers a little while back?

As for the other terms, they do have their counterparts. Tops who are in it just for the sex or the play have been called users in contrast to 'so-me' subs. There have been several threads on the boards in the past that "top" is supposedly a dirty word. Many 'bedroom Dominants' haven't been taken seriously. When a Dominant hasn't got any practical experience, 'wanna-be' is probably the best thing he gets called. More often, they are labeled 'dangerous'. Let's not forget domineering, controlling, inept, and a bunch more that I could throw out.

On this one, julia, you may be seeing only one side of it. The side that is more sensitive to you since there have been times that folks have thrown those terms negatively at you. The other side is there for the other half of the coin, too.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 10

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:04:55 PM

ShaharThorne

Posts: 11071
Joined: 2/24/2009
From: Somewhere in TX
Status: offline

Its a double vision when it comes to us switches. We do have experience on both side of the knell and know when to apply which side. Its the ones who does the bragging who get my goat...

_____________________________

Goddess of Yarn

You are making two and a half feet of irresistible, tubular sex! -Lola, Kinky Boots

Founder: Bitch with Tits

Whip me, beat me, make me feel cheap and have great sex

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 11

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:10:22 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

see a lot of times that D-types get called asshole, jerk, abusive, prick, wannabe, etc etc etc.

Find a thread labelled "asshole dominants" or "prick dominants"

I think it would be analogous if we had threads like he is "justa service top"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

Post #: 12

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:12:07 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

There have been several threads on the boards in the past that "top" is supposedly a dirty word. Many 'bedroom Dominants' haven't been taken seriously.

I missed those threads

About abusive, I have seen a couple of those, but in my experience those people get told off, whereas the labels attached to submissives tend to have teeth

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 13

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:15:37 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I did not really want this to be a contest on who has it worse...the D or the s

Perhaps it would be more appropriate just to concentrate on the negative labels attached to S types... is it fair to judge someone as being less real because they enjoy something different than you do?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 14

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:18:11 PM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

i dont think the things used against Doms are quite the same as the things used against subs. the terms 'TFTB' - 'youre not a sub' blahblah - are designed to manipulate the submissive very often. they are used as tools all too often, usually by the inexperienced to um 'encourage' (?) shall we say, to be more attentive and try harder, or and its a big or, they are used to excuse the Dominant in his own mind that the sub was impossible to dominate. its short hand for 'i cant dominate you'.

having said that i have been called a brat and it was fair go frankly - i was being a brat. ive been accused of 'not being submissive' and it was true, i wasnt to him.

like most cliches they are born from some semblance of truth that through the process of internet chinese whispers and the parrallel dimensions that confuse pretty much everyone until they hit real time is wordage, often innappropriately used.

for instance the word 'negative' isnt negative in of itself, its the inferrance that is.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 15

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:20:40 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I can envision myself

It's envisage Julia.

Envisage: 'to conceive'.

The question ain't no riddle.....and the answer really shouldn't need pointing out to you.

Thanks for the correction, although you are incorrect

envisage [ɪnˈvɪzɪdʒ]
vb (tr)
1. to form a mental image of; visualize; contemplate
2. to conceive of as a possibility in the future; foresee
3. Archaic to look in the face of; confront
[from French envisager, from en-1 + visage face, visage]

en·vi·sion (n-vzhn)
tr.v. en·vi·sioned, en·vi·sion·ing, en·vi·sions
To picture in the mind; imagine.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 16

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:21:13 PM

SorceressJ

Posts: 2968
Joined: 7/24/2010
Status: offline

If we had a thread called "Asshole Dominants" I would totally go post dumb shit over there, I really would.
For every ten Top/Dominant-types, there are 12 and a half definitions. Same for the sub/slaves. I am personally not a huge fan of labels, nor of attempting to define myself or my life pursuant to the experience and opinion of others. Each and every one of us, we are what we are, and within the scope of enlightened human reasoning should endeavor not to worry about it too much beyond that. I'm twue to myself, which is all that's needed.

_____________________________

‎Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc. <93>)O(

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:21:50 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
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"do me's and brats, and topping from the bottom" All became negative labels when they were applied to traits in a person that were un desirable to the Dominants. Now where along the line that started happening I don't know. And why do people need to paint all brats, sams, do me's bottoms an stuff as negative in every sense of the way when it maybe only negative to THEM in specific, I don't know either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have this pet peeve that has been developing lately. Once in a while we have a couple of threads come up that illustrate to me that there are a myriad of labels to attach to submissives that really have no dominant counterparts, and these labels are negative ones. Now, for me, this isn't so much an issue, because I do not involve myself with people who like to label a person instead of dealing with them, but it is a reminder of just the kinda stuff submissive peoples have to put up with.

I just wanted to ask, what are the negative labels that dominants get tagged with, besides maybe "wannabe" or "fake"? Where are the threads labelled with terms meant to denigrate them? I am not suggesting that we come up with them, in fact I wouldn't like it if we did.

The fact of the matter is many of these terms did not start out with the intention of being a negative label.

Why is any of the above used as an insult to people, or used to denigrate their "realness"?

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious

_____________________________

One world under lube with vibrators and dildo's for all! quote from the sex toy 101 book

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 18

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:23:40 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

i dont think the things used against Doms are quite the same as the things used against subs. the terms 'TFTB' - 'youre not a sub' blahblah - are designed to manipulate the submissive very often. they are used as tools all too often, usually by the inexperienced to um 'encourage' (?) shall we say, to be more attentive and try harder, or and its a big or, they are used to excuse the Dominant in his own mind that the sub was impossible to dominate. its short hand for 'i cant dominate you'.

This resonates with me. I do not think I have ever seen a dominant come to this board relating that they get emails from submissives about how fake they are...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 19

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 1:47:00 PM

SylvereApLeanan

Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I see a lot of "that guy is an asshole" posts. Asshole, abuser, jerk, wannabe, player, user, the list goes on, doesn't it? It's that the labels are more generic than scene related, I think.

This.

And let us not forget the feminine side on which we have:

Fake
Prostitute
Gold digger
Whore
Leech
Parasite

Really, if you (generic) have been on the boards for any length of time and somehow managed to miss these, either you haven't been paying attention or you're willfully ignoring them.

quote:

Here, on the boards, there is the general assumption that if somehow, something didn't work then it is pretty much because the Dom was an asshole just wanting to score some quick pussy before he tossed her aside.

Agreed. Or if female, that she was only interested in how much she could wring out of his wallet. Because we all know a vanilla woman would never concern herself with how much a man makes. (Millionaire Matchmaker, anyone?)

quote:

Why is any of the above used as an insult to people, or used to denigrate their "realness"?

IME, it's usually because those people are dishonest about their intentions and try to pass themselves off as something they are not. When they don't get what they want, they attempt to manipulate the situation and the dominant to get it. If they still don't get it, they become passive-aggressive and start slinging insults towards the dominant party when, in reality, it's their own fault they didn't get what they wanted because they weren't honest about their needs in the first place or had unrealistic expectations that could only be met by a comic book superhero.

quote:

For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone?

If you're unwilling or unable to be honest with yourself or with others, and equally unwilling/unable to communicate like a rational adult, then you aren't fit for a relationship, IMO. That applies to any relationship, kinky or otherwise.

This is not to say that I don't enjoy a bit of SAMish or bratty behavior once in awhile. If it's done in a playful way, and comes from someone I know isn't trying to manipulate me or challenge my authority in the dynamic, then I'll call her a brat or a SAM and turn her over my knee for the paddling she clearly deserves. We'll both have fun with it. But there's a line between a moment of bratty behavior and being a brat in the sense of a personality trait/character flaw. The first I can deal with while the latter gets kicked to the curb. The same applies to TFTB. If I'm in a learning situation where the sub is giving me instructions and feedback on a new technique, that's a far cry from attempting to manipulate me.

_____________________________

Sylverë
Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl

"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 20

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