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RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 8/31/2010 1:36:14 PM   
SorceressJ


Posts: 2968
Joined: 7/24/2010
Status: offline 		- Don't need validation because I already have it, of my own volition and from my own sense of myself. Wouldn't even need validation in submission, because I already like myself and know what I'm worth; if I submit, it would be to augment the miracle of what is already there.
- Not afraid of going without sex, per se, because 1) I already have all I need, and 2) if I really need the release of an orgasm, I can have one. Trust me.
- Got all the faith I need, because I am partnered with a man I trust. Yes, they do make them that way. Keeping my word, or him keeping his, is not an issue, and is in fact part of our personal integrity and honor system that we value at least as much as we value each other.
- Don't need to think that he or I 'might cheat', because there's not another soul on Earth who can hold a candle to either one of us as a person, or what we have as a couple. There's no piece of ass from anyone, ever that's worth it. The so-called excitement of cheating and/or chasing strange just doesn't appeal, and has all the physio-emotional gradient of something from another universe. It's just not something either of us wants, at all.
- Got all the hot fulfilling sex either one of us needs, via deep love, mutual attraction, open communication, common goals, likes and dislikes in common, and the willingness to experiment. Five and a half years into it, the honeymoon is still on like a pot of neckbones; we still hug, snuggle, make googly-eyes at each other and are glad to see each other at the end of the day, make our adult children roll their eyes and say 'get a room' *LOL*, and make those around us envious.
- Would -never- consider leaving or cheating on my partner if he became ill or otherwise unable to give me sex, period. That's just shallow, self-centered and totally against my nature, sorry. I'd sooner cut my own throat, or better yet, join a convent.



< Message edited by SorceressJ -- 8/31/2010 1:37:43 PM >

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(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 8/31/2010 1:44:30 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

I happen to think that most people entering a marriage that is monogamous really do understand that "in sickness and in health" part does include a possible situation in life where one party may become ill.  Doing otherwise, in My opinion, is rather short sighted.


Two things strike me about this.

Firstly, I am not convinced many of us go into marriage with the absolute ability to ensure that the vow we make today is something we will be able to live by tomorrow. Personally, I think this sort of 'forever and ever' vow was fine a thousand years ago when neither party was likely to live past 40, but nowadays, when both parties could live to be 90, and married for 70 years, I suspect it is a bit of a task to keep it going. We all understand the vows I am sure, but I suspect none of us realise what they might actually mean in any real sense. This might be short-sighted, but most of us, when it comes to this really are short-sighted. If you know at the age of 30 how you are going to feel about your partner at the age of 70, then you are a truly outstanding human being.


EDIT The 'in reply to' is wrong. I'm quoting LadyPact...




I am surrounded by truly outstanding human beings, then. Yet another thing to be thankful for.

If you can stand in front of a group of family and friends and MAKE A VOW THAT YOU DO NOT INTEND TO KEEP, then you really are the lowest of the low. Commitment is about maintaining the relationship, changing as situations change, and accepting the best and the worst. No, we do not know what will happen in the future. But to START out knowing that you will just bail? Disgraceful.




This.  IN MOST CASES, people do NOT get married/handfasted/commited with the intention of divorcing etc..

But sometimes, things change that are un-fixable, and the end of the marriage* is going to happen.  Lamentable, but true. Not everyone can maintain the Happy Ever After stuff.. a woman who marries a man that seems ideal, but becomes an abuser.. the man that marries a woman and is actually gay.. etc.

When the vows are spoken.. they are (usually) meant.

*handfasting, etc


This...

Because if we ALL kept all of our vows, there would be zero divorce.

That whole "till death do us part" bit.

As for the topic, I am pretty ambivalent about it. I kind of actually think that people that expect a spouse, in a long term marriage, will never fuck another, is usually sticking their head in the sand. I've heard enough about men and women, away from spouses on military duty. I've worked enough hours in nightclubs. I've spent enough time around people, male and female, to know how often people fuck around.

Yeah, there are some, many of them men, that are very much faithful to their S.O.'s, but there are a lot more that are not.......given the opportunity.

All I ever ask is honesty. If someone I am in a relationship with is going to, I want to hear it from them. Not some busy body, piece of shit, that couldn't wait to see the look on my face when they gave me 'the bad news'.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 8/31/2010 1:47:12 PM >

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 8/31/2010 1:50:12 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

LadyPact: I'll answer your question when you answer one of Mine.  Why is judging a bad thing based on a person's standards?


Whose standards, yours or theirs? What do you mean by a 'standard', anyway? Do you mean the socially constructed morality where lies are a sin, always? Or something else? It's interesting, you use a lot of terms in a really loose way as if they might actually mean something. For example, you say 'honesty' - what do you mean by that? It's almost like you can't help yourself - your language is peppered with pejoratives. I would suggest that it's a Domme thing - I am in charge, I must be right and you must be wrong, but it can't be that because SpiritedRadiance does the same thing.

For what it's worth, I think your decision not to get involved in it is just fine. The only bit I have a problem with is your moral certainty. It's almost biblical. I know, I know, I sound a bit harsh - I'm trying not to be, honestly. I just think you need to get over yourself.

I'll try to answer your question blind, though. Making judgements of individuals in individual circumstances is fine. We all do that to some extent. Carpet bombing a whole complex area with that single judgement based on that single circumstance is not. We call that bigotry.

quote:

Explain to Me why cheating on a person's spouse any different


Have you noticed how I have been putting the word 'cheating' in inverted commas? I do that because although I accept there are occasions when getting involved with another person, either emotionally or sexually, without the knowledge of one's life partner might be considered to be cheating, I do not accept that the moral judgement that comes with the term always applies. I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail, if you like. But I think I'd be wasting my time - I've said what I believe more than once now, and on each occasion it has been misrepresented or the point ignored.

quote:

Isabella: There are lots of people here who seem to unequivocally hate cheaters...some who even said it would be better to end the relationship with a terminally ill partner, and let them die alone, just because they're not sexually satisfying their partner. I judge that. I judge that fucking harshly.

Does that make me a bad person?


Amen to that. You clearly understand the point. I am confident that if we picked at the threads we could find much to disagree about - like at what point exactly does it go from a 'crappy thing to do' to 'OK'? But I absolutely agree with you. Sometimes, the best way to save a relationship (because we're all human, and we all have human failings) is to throw the rule book away and live with the consequences. If that means giving up some cherished ideals, then so be it.

quote:

FirebirdSeeking: Often cheating is the end result of an unhappy relationship.  I just think its best to deal straight up with the unhappiness rather than cross a line that will likely result in severe pain for many, including the children.


The key word is 'often'. Sometimes 'cheating' is the end result of a long process of trying to come to terms with, and accommodate changes in circumstances which threaten to destroy a cherished relationship. The choice may be to let the relationship die and deal with the consequences of that, or stay unhappy, or 'cheat'.

GreedyTop - the comment about going into a relationship with the intention to bail? Strawman. No-one said that except for LadyPact. What I said was that whatever we promise, there are no guarantees, ever.

quote:

LadyPact: For all of the talk that people want to go into about how there are 'reasons' for cheating, so far, I haven't seen a darn one of them that are based in anything more than selfishness.  We can tell sob stories all we want about the supposed spouse who is not engaging in sexual activities due to a debilitating disease, but let's be a little more honest here.  Do we really think that the majority of people who are cheating on their spouse are in that situation?  I think people are grabbing at straws because they don't want to look at their own selfishness.  The conclusion is that their wants have a higher priority than the want of the spouse to have a faithful partner.  If that isn't self centered, I don't know what is.


Judging...


quote:

TwoShoes: "Cheating" is all in the lying/emotionally neglecting your partner


I guess the reason I questioned it (and I apologise for the way I came across) is that I don't automatically assume that lying is wrong. It isn't ideal, but it isn't always wrong. I often misrepresent what I feel about things. I'll say to someone 'Yes, give it a try, it might work.' when really I know there isn't a hope in hell - I just don't want to be the one pissing on someone else's parade all the time. Sometimes, I'll say 'yes, I'd love to visit your mother this weekend!' when really, I'd sooner not. For that ideal, perfect relationship we all dream of, yes, lying has no part in it. But, and maybe it's just me, I don't have that. I have a 20 year old relationship full of holes and bits that don't work as well as they did. If it is going to survive another 20 years, then I need to find ways to keep it afloat. Judge me if you want, but seriously, I'm doing the best I can.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 8/31/2010 5:56:15 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Whose standards, yours or theirs?

Mine, of course.  If I say that My word is more important to Me than sex, who else's standard would it be?

quote:

What do you mean by a 'standard', anyway?

I guess you could say moral.  It is My moral belief and a part of the commitment in My marriage that says honesty between My husband and Myself is more important than sex.  I can only say it so many times.  My personal integrity is more important to Me than orgasms.
quote:

Do you mean the socially constructed morality where lies are a sin, always?

If I did, wouldn't it be My right to believe so?  If I was basing it on My relationship with a Higher Power that says My husband and I need to be honest with each other, would that be a problem for you?
quote:

Or something else?

How many times in this post can I use the words 'personal integrity' before it will get through?
quote:

It's interesting, you use a lot of terms in a really loose way as if they might actually mean something. For example, you say 'honesty' - what do you mean by that? It's almost like you can't help yourself - your language is peppered with pejoratives.

Please accept the following as meant with all sincerity.  If you are ever out our way, please consider this an open invitation to come and meet My husband and Myself.  You might get something of a shock with the way we interact because we are this way with each other, but we know what's right for us.
quote:

I would suggest that it's a Domme thing - I am in charge, I must be right and you must be wrong, but it can't be that because SpiritedRadiance does the same thing.

I am right for Me.  I don't base this on being a Domme.  I'm not My husband's Domme.  However, you may be on to something with that one, as I'm serious about My beliefs about not involving non consensual third parties in My kink.

quote:

For what it's worth, I think your decision not to get involved in it is just fine. The only bit I have a problem with is your moral certainty. It's almost biblical. I know, I know, I sound a bit harsh - I'm trying not to be, honestly. I just think you need to get over yourself.

There you go again.  LOL.  Exactly who would be better than Me to decide whether honesty with My husband is more important than sex?  My husband, as a living, breathing human being is more important than sex.  My husband and our marriage is more important than My participation in BDSM.  The day that one of us decides that it is detrimental to our marriage, you won't see Me here any more.

quote:

I'll try to answer your question blind, though. Making judgements of individuals in individual circumstances is fine. We all do that to some extent. Carpet bombing a whole complex area with that single judgement based on that single circumstance is not. We call that bigotry.

It's not complicated for Me.  It really isn't.  It is nothing more than a choice of what is more important between A and B.  The third option, fucking around behind his back, doesn't exist in My mind.

quote:

Have you noticed how I have been putting the word 'cheating' in inverted commas? I do that because although I accept there are occasions when getting involved with another person, either emotionally or sexually, without the knowledge of one's life partner might be considered to be cheating, I do not accept that the moral judgement that comes with the term always applies. I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail, if you like. But I think I'd be wasting my time - I've said what I believe more than once now, and on each occasion it has been misrepresented or the point ignored.

That happens often when two people believe differently.  I highly doubt either of us is going to change the other person's mind on it. 

quote:

Judging...

Probably.  Then again, if I had a seriously ill partner or a relationship that was in that kind of trouble, the LAST thing I'd be thinking about was My cunt.
quote:

I guess the reason I questioned it (and I apologise for the way I came across) is that I don't automatically assume that lying is wrong. It isn't ideal, but it isn't always wrong. I often misrepresent what I feel about things. I'll say to someone 'Yes, give it a try, it might work.' when really I know there isn't a hope in hell - I just don't want to be the one pissing on someone else's parade all the time. Sometimes, I'll say 'yes, I'd love to visit your mother this weekend!' when really, I'd sooner not. For that ideal, perfect relationship we all dream of, yes, lying has no part in it. But, and maybe it's just me, I don't have that. I have a 20 year old relationship full of holes and bits that don't work as well as they did. If it is going to survive another 20 years, then I need to find ways to keep it afloat. Judge me if you want, but seriously, I'm doing the best I can.


We're actually both the type that doesn't want this.  For the example you gave, we're more likely to look at the other and say, "no, I really don't want to, but I'll come with you because I know you want Me to".  The other would be, "no, I don't believe it will work, but try it anyway".  Yes!  I want to know if My ass looks fat in those pants!  That's how I know that there is trust and honesty between us.




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/1/2010 1:09:30 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		@LadyPact...

Not the reply I was expecting...

As you describe things in your last post, I have absolutely no problems with what you are saying at all. You are describing your position in your circumstances and your feelings on that. It's all about you, and I absolutely get that.

Where we run into confrontation I think is when you appear to lay claim on the moral authority to judge others - because you have no authority to judge anyone else. You have no right, and neither does anyone else. In my opinion, anyway.



(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/1/2010 1:24:52 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Where we run into confrontation I think is when you appear to lay claim on the moral authority to judge others - because you have no authority to judge anyone else. You have no right, and neither does anyone else. In my opinion, anyway.


Some people are intrinsically more judgemental than others.

Do you not remember that whole Myer-Briggs Type Indicator thread?

LadyPact could be valued for her "personal integrity".

Whereas someone less judgmental like me can relate to more situations and get along with nearly anyone.

Now the real question is: when a situation forces you to violate your values, will you be able to stand up for them?

Most people answer: "yes", but thinking of not so distant history, I'd say it isn't true in most cases.

For reference, I've already gotten beat up for standing up for what I believe in, and I'm not entirely sure if that's a good thing or just plain stupidity and stubbornness.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 9/1/2010 1:43:02 PM >

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/1/2010 2:24:56 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Twoshoes Now the real question is: when a situation forces you to violate your values, will you be able to stand up for them?


That's an excellent question. I don't know the answer any more. Like most people (I imagine) I used to have a set of values I thought were a core part of me. I thought I knew right from wrong, good from bad and so on. But today, I find have had to compromise in so many areas of my life that I no longer feel  certain that I believe in anything any more. It feels like everything is negotiable in the right circumstances.

You know, I'm fed up with skirting around the issue so I'm going to come right out and say it. I've been with my partner for 20 years. She has some 'issues', and it's not getting any better. The last time I had sex with her was maybe 11 years ago. Our relationship now is like a very close friendship, and I'm OK with that. I'm determined to get old with her - I love her very much. But I need something more. And that something more isn't just sex. If it was just the physical release, I could do that myself. I'm looking for a relationship that can help fill the missing space. Trying to create two half-relationships is where I am at, I think. Or something - I don't know. It's impossible, of course it is, but this is where I am at. Compromised? Yes, absolutely. But for someone who used to be an idealist, I'm feeling pretty cool with it. It isn't often someone gets to experience their whole existence being turned inside out!

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/2/2010 7:46:50 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

@LadyPact...

Not the reply I was expecting...

I honestly have no idea why not.  I see by the joining date on the account that it's a fairly new one, but it isn't anything that I haven't said on other threads on the very same topic before.

quote:

As you describe things in your last post, I have absolutely no problems with what you are saying at all. You are describing your position in your circumstances and your feelings on that. It's all about you, and I absolutely get that.

It really wouldn't matter to Me if you did have a problem with it.  This isn't exactly a committee or a democracy.  I'm perfectly ok knowing that My position on this is different than yours.

quote:

Where we run into confrontation I think is when you appear to lay claim on the moral authority to judge others - because you have no authority to judge anyone else. You have no right, and neither does anyone else. In my opinion, anyway.

Yes and no.  Maybe I should explain on that.

Let's say that I believe it's wrong to kill little baby animals.  Now, I can come up with that concept from anywhere.  Maybe it is from personal boundaries, a belief that I don't wish to do harm, an information base from PETA, or whatever reason makes Me think this way.  I may not have an issue with killing an animal for food (need food to live) or in self defense (a human's need to survive) but I think it's wrong to kill for sport (because it's fun to kill something just for entertainment).

If I should happen to come across someone who believes differently than I do on the matter, that's perfectly good criteria to base My decision if that is a person that I want to be around.  Maybe I find their stories told in social situations about how funny the sound is when they crush an animal in the road under the tires of their car something I find completely distasteful.  Perhaps I don't want to be in the car when they specifically swerve to the other side of the road to hit that squirrel so they can put another notch in their intentional road kill counter.  I can also prefer to stand by My belief system and say your want for entertainment (not need) through harming other living creatures is a good enough reason for Me not to want to associate with you.





_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/2/2010 8:02:39 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Where we run into confrontation I think is when you appear to lay claim on the moral authority to judge others - because you have no authority to judge anyone else. You have no right, and neither does anyone else. In my opinion, anyway.



Utter bullshit!!!

We ALL make judgments about people/things, every single day. Some of us even are expected to, for a paycheck. Just because someone does not like a judgment call that makes them look bad in another person's eyes, does not make it wrong to make the judgment.

What most people get their undies in a wad over, is when people like myself, and people I admire like Lady Pact, are comfortable and self confident enough to voice our opinions and judgments. Well boofuckinghoo!!! What the whinypants are not understanding is that we really don't give a flying fuck whether you like our opinions or not. Another thing they don't get is that we are usually pretty okay with being on the other end of that measuring stick. I've been called cold, judgmental, mean, you name it..........because I have no problem voicing my 'judgments'. I am okay with that. The reason I am okay with that is because the morality, personal judgment, poor life coping skills, whatever.... in that person, I've already judged to be lacking anyway. So why would their opinion about me matter?

Just try being a responsible human being/parent/leader without making judgments. It's not going to happen.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/2/2010 2:09:17 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Seems I have some explaining to do...

LadyPact gives an example of an area where we might judge someone - the killing of animals. Her basic premise is that whatever the reason someone gives for killing an animal, apart from self-defence or for food, she is not interested. It is important to her that she isn't around a person who kills animals unless it is in self-defence, or for food.

That's fine. I have no problem with that. Her life, her rules. I have no difficulty with her acting or not acting based on what she thinks and believes.

But, as I have said repeatedly, that doesn't make her point of view 'right' in any real sense. It doesn't mean her judgement has any validity outside of her own head. She has set up a moral code that is personal to her, but that's as far as it goes. Now, according to LadyPact's personal code as set out above, someone who kills and traps (for example) Mink in the UK countryside would be someone to avoid. The fact that Mink are not native to the UK and kill all the native mammal species would not be important. Killing Mink is not 'self-defence', and it is not 'or food'. Therefore, as it falls outside the only allowable categories for killing animals, and it is wrong. The result of this is that in 100 years, all the UK native waterways species will be gone, and the waterway ecology will collapse. Killing Mink is a clear and unambiguous example of a 'forbidden' behaviour, carried out for a 'good' intention. ladyPact's contention that it is only permissible to kill animals for food, or in self-defence is clearly lacking something. It's easily fixed though - add Mink extermination to the list of 'allowed' behaviours.

My point? LadyPact might be wrong to set herself up as defender of all that is fluffy. By setting her strict moral code and not allowing for exceptions, she could be missing a very important point. Judging the Mink exterminator in the same way as the Fox Hunter would be, in my opinion, unfair.

To get back to the subject at hand, the suggestion that a man (or woman) who sleeps with someone without telling their 'main' partner is always, by definition, a scoundrel, may suggest to us that she is missing the point. The thing that is important might not be the squidgy encounter in a foreign bed. It might not be the secret yearnings for physical contact. The thing that is important might be the intention. Is the encounter about 'Moar sex?' or is it about 'stability'? Is the insistence that there are no exceptions actually just a bit short-sighted?

And again, I need to point out I am not suggesting that LadyPact start sleeping around, or that she starts to mix with people who do. All I am suggesting is that a bit less moral certainty and a bit more understanding of some people's reality might be a good idea.

quote:

Utter bullshit!!!

We ALL make judgments about people/things, every single day.


See above. I am not saying that the making of judgements is wrong, or that you should not do it. I am simply stating that those judgements you come to have no validity outside your own head. You can judge as much as you want, but if you do, I can always contend that you are just another judgemental fool who really has no understanding of the situation you are judging on. You might want to claim here that the law judges people, and God does. That's fine. The only reason their judgements have real world validity is because they back them up with threats. In reality, their opinion is no more valuable than yours or mine (providing we are party to the same information to base our judgements on). If we could offer a bigger threat, then our opinion would instantly rise up the ladder to supplant theirs.

quote:

Just try being a responsible human being/parent/leader without making judgments. It's not going to happen.

Making judgements on behalf of others who lack the necessary qualifications to make their own judgements is a bit different, don't you think?



(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/2/2010 2:57:55 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Well, you were close.  The premise was that there was a need for life.  I guess I didn't phrase it properly.

I'll absolutely give you one point.  In your marriage, this isn't My call to make.  Real simple answer to this one.  If it isn't wrong in your marriage, tell your wife.  For all of the exceptions someone wants to say there are and all of the outrageous possibilities that have been covered in this and similar threads, the one who really should have the opportunity to decide if it is acceptable, is the person that you are married to.  If that person feels it is ok, there really isn't an issue.  On the other hand, if you're hiding it, you're doing that for a reason.


ETA - By the way, in the example above, I highly doubt those who are killing the minks (necessary for the environment - again, a need) are doing it for their own personal pleasure. 



< Message edited by LadyPact -- 9/2/2010 3:17:28 PM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/2/2010 3:11:35 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		No I don't.

You are trying to create an absolute for all by saying that someone else is.

Seriously, where do you get the gall to suggest that your moral judgment is correct outside of your head but Lady Pact's isn't?

Every single one of us looks at people, looks at what others do and makes some sort of judgment on it. It is universal in humankind. To suggest that your leniency is a better judgment than LadyPact's stricter judgment is ridiculous. Both points of view just are. Her's more right for her and those in her life. Yours' are what fits you.

If you want to take it back to animals. I have zero problem killing a beef for meat and hide. I could do it personally, if I had the equipment, and it wouldn't bother me. Yet, there are people that, not only could they never imagine doing such a thing, they find the practice horrific for others as well. Who is right? Well, both of us feel we are and probably have no problem telling others why we feel that way. But, big picture, all that matters is that we live OUR LIVES according to our own personal morals. My personal morals allow me to eat that beef that was killed for food. Regardless of what anyone says to me.

Regardless of whether or not LadyPact feels your cheating is wrong, and has no problem telling you so, it shouldn't matter to you. You are living YOUR LIFE according to your own moral code. Hopefully, the people you share your life with, also share your moral code. If not.......sucks to be you.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 2:19:02 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Well, you were close.  The premise was that there was a need for life.  I guess I didn't phrase it properly.

I'll absolutely give you one point.  In your marriage, this isn't My call to make.  Real simple answer to this one.  If it isn't wrong in your marriage, tell your wife.  For all of the exceptions someone wants to say there are and all of the outrageous possibilities that have been covered in this and similar threads, the one who really should have the opportunity to decide if it is acceptable, is the person that you are married to.  If that person feels it is ok, there really isn't an issue.  On the other hand, if you're hiding it, you're doing that for a reason.


ETA - By the way, in the example above, I highly doubt those who are killing the minks (necessary for the environment - again, a need) are doing it for their own personal pleasure. 




i once saw to my horror my grandfather dance on a nest of baby mice... he killed all of them and he was shouting at us children to stamp on the few who were desperately scurrying along in an effort to escape
unfortunately my own father has taken quite a few pups and kittens to Mrs Underwater
... we have a friend who works in abattoirs, he loves animals but he enjoys his job... and just recently i saw another friend throw out most of a leg of lamb because she overcooked it and it was awful to eat.
Unfortunately lots of killing of animals happens for no good reason at all... especially the killing we do for food... it is totally disgusting to see how much good meat gets chucked into the bin, most decent/respectful people waste animals without giving it even a second thought,
if you do not want any of these people around you, you have to buy yourself a desert island and become a hermit,
please stop comparing cheating to cancer or killing baby animals or other strange things.

it is not always the best policy to be honest

just because you think you are always honest and expect everybody around you to be so too, does not mean it is actually the most right thing to do always 
and not everybody around you will be always honest either nomatter how much you expect it of them.

LadyPact, you are poly, your husband allows you to have a lover and that lover's wife is ok with that too, on top of that you get to play with other people, i suppose only if all these peoples partners and your own are fully aware and ok with the scenario.
and that works for you... and yours
(though i seem to remember a post from Clip expressing some problems with envy when you played with some other person)

Some people might argue you are very selfish and simply do not care much about any of the people you are cavorting with or you would not behave in such a way.
... and furthermore that the people you are cavorting with most likely do not care too much about you or themselves either, or they would not accept this kind of behaviour.
That is totally judgemental and possibly wrong too.

just because something is right for you does not mean it is for someone else.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 8:37:27 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
please stop comparing cheating to cancer or killing baby animals or other strange things.

I could have used the analogy that killing other humans is wrong, but as often happens on threads like this, the folks who want to endorse that cheating on their partner or lying about it seem to always go for the most outrageous possibilities.  I'm sure somebody would have come along to ask if killing Hitler was justifiable. 

quote:

it is not always the best policy to be honest

As this thread has shown, we obviously don't agree with that.  I'd actually prefer to give up the sex than be in the position to lie about it.  Honesty isn't a bad word and neither is fidelity.

quote:

just because you think you are always honest and expect everybody around you to be so too, does not mean it is actually the most right thing to do always

Yet, it's working for Me.  We have a very good marriage that includes honest and open communication.  We have it because that is specifically what we want. 
quote:

and not everybody around you will be always honest either nomatter how much you expect it of them.

The people that I'm having sex with do.  I'm married to one and the other is in My collar. 

quote:

LadyPact, you are poly, your husband allows you to have a lover and that lover's wife is ok with that too, on top of that you get to play with other people, i suppose only if all these peoples partners and your own are fully aware and ok with the scenario.

Exactly!  That's the point of this whole thing!  None of that is hidden or lied about.  One of the people that I'm playing with now is specifically at the request of his Mistress.  I wouldn't be doing it otherwise.  I'm not having sex with him.  I'm simply engaging in S/m with him because I'm more sadistic than she.  (The guy is a dynamo.  Absolutely wonderful masochist.) 
quote:

and that works for you... and yours
(though i seem to remember a post from Clip expressing some problems with envy when you played with some other person)

Absolutely true, but not because it was hidden or lied about.  In fact, clip was made aware of the fact that I played with other people before I even played with him.  Anybody that I even engage in casual S/m with is told that right up front.  Somewhere around 75% of the play that I do is in some public venue or another, so this isn't a secret.

quote:

Some people might argue you are very selfish and simply do not care much about any of the people you are cavorting with or you would not behave in such a way.

Exactly what evidence would they have to base that on?  I'm sure anybody could argue anything that they have no facts to substantiate, if they chose to do so.  I could just as easily argue that anybody who felt the need to cheat on their spouse doesn't really love them.  It doesn't mean that I know that to prevent Me from arguing the point.
quote:

... and furthermore that the people you are cavorting with most likely do not care too much about you or themselves either, or they would not accept this kind of behaviour.
That is totally judgemental and possibly wrong too.

Let's face it.  All of sadism can be considered 'wrong'.  Legally, I don't have a leg to stand on to beat someone even with their consent.  Kind of reaching on that one, aren't you?

quote:

just because something is right for you does not mean it is for someone else.

The funny thing about this is, I sincerely wonder just how many folks out there who are involved with someone else sexually, could somehow wave a magic wand and be able to tell the truth about it, I'd be curious to know how many would like that?  If they no longer had to lie, sneak, or keep that part of them hidden from the person that so many claim to be their 'best friend'.  No more barrier between them or hiding their activities.  Eliminate the fear of being caught or the pain of the part of them that they can't share.

Of course, there's no way to really know if people would prefer that or not.  I just happen to know that I do.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 8:49:50 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz


guess the reason I questioned it (and I apologise for the way I came across) is that II don't automatically assume that lying is wrong. It isn't ideal, but it isn't always wrong. I often misrepresent what I feel about things. I'll say to someone 'Yes, give it a try, it might work.' when really I know there isn't a hope in hell - I just don't want to be the one pissing on someone else's parade all the time. Sometimes, I'll say 'yes, I'd love to visit your mother this weekend!' when really, I'd sooner not. For that ideal, perfect relationship we all dream of, yes, lying has no part in it. But, and maybe it's just me, I don't have that. I have a 20 year old relationship full of holes and bits that don't work as well as they did. If it is going to survive another 20 years, then I need to find ways to keep it afloat. Judge me if you want, but seriously, I'm doing the best I can.



If you do not see the difference between saying, " No that dress does not make you ass look fat" and, " I was just out with friends" while you were fucking some one else, there is no point in debating this.

If your siginifcant other found out you lied about the dress, they would think you were being kind.

About the other?.... you tell me.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 1:41:54 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

LadyPact: if you're hiding it, you're doing that for a reason


Yes - and I have already told you what it is. My partner is aware that celibacy is an issue for me, and she is aware that I am struggling with it. She has told me, expressly, that if I were to look elsewhere for things I can't find in our relationship, she would prefer not to know about it.

quote:

LaTigresse: Seriously, where do you get the gall to suggest that your moral judgment is correct outside of your head but Lady Pact's isn't?


Which moral judgement would that be? Is that the one where I suggest that all morality is actually an invention, which doesn't refer to any real world imperative? I don't believe I have made any moral judgements here. All along I have been supportive of the right of others to believe what the hell they want as long as they don't use their beliefs to pass judgement on others.

quote:

Both points of view just are. Her's more right for her and those in her life. Yours' are what fits you.


Exactly my point.

quote:

Jeeeeeeeeef: If you do not see the difference between saying, " No that dress does not make you ass look fat" and, " I was just out with friends" while you were fucking some one else, there is no point in debating this.


I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. Given that you have resorted to a Strawman argument on your very first contribution to the thread, I suspect that you actually haven't read much of the argument, in which case, yes, I suspect you are right there is little point in my debating it with you. So I won't, until you provide me with a bit of evidence that you are capable of reading my replies.

quote:

Jefffffffffff: If your siginifcant other found out you lied about the dress, they would think you were being kind.

About the other?.... you tell me.


If you had bothered to read the thread, you would see that I have already told you, some pages back.



< Message edited by hertz -- 9/3/2010 1:43:47 PM >

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 1:47:31 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Yes - and I have already told you what it is. My partner is aware that celibacy is an issue for me, and she is aware that I am struggling with it. She has told me, expressly, that if I were to look elsewhere for things I can't find in our relationship, she would prefer not to know about it.




This is COMPLETELY different then Cheating Hertz. Youve had a talk it might have been a vague, but it was a I cant do this i know your having issues i just dont wish to know about it.

Thats not cheating to me, because youve had the talk and she has said that it was okay if that is truly the case it is a very different situation.


_____________________________

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(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 1:50:30 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I quoted the relevant part.

If you don't get it, you don't get it.

_____________________________

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(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 2:02:20 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
Yes - and I have already told you what it is. My partner is aware that celibacy is an issue for me, and she is aware that I am struggling with it. She has told me, expressly, that if I were to look elsewhere for things I can't find in our relationship, she would prefer not to know about it.


Man, I don't know what I'd do in your situation (and I read your explanation in the cmail). But from my limited life experience, I can tell you that sticking bandages on leaking pipes just prolongs the frustration indefinately.

That doesn't make it sound like she's onboard; it sounds like she doesn't want responsability.

I'd have that talk again. Your current approach won't even remotely fix your problem.

There is a big difference between not wanting to meet the other partners and wanting to pretend it isn't happening.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 9/3/2010 2:06:07 PM >

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: When the un-knowing partner finds out... - 9/3/2010 2:24:22 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		It's difficult, Twoshoes.

I want the relationship with her - I love her, and we've been together a long time - we have a life together, complete with a lovely house in a village both of us love, and with roses in the garden and a couple of cats curled up in front of the fire and everything. We've worked hard together to make a life for ourselves, me and her against the world. I trust her, absolutely, and she trusts me. I'm not a youngster - I recognise that what we have is pretty special. It's terribly flawed, yes, but it's worth protecting.

Personally, I think life is all about your aptly described leaking pipes. Nothing is perfect in my experience. And some of the things that seem perfect don't have longevity. But yes, I could be getting this utterly wrong. Trouble is, no-one can advise me because no-one is able to sit inside my head with me and feel what I feel - and I know that, so I can't trust that what they say has any more validity than my unsatisfactory answers to the problem.

I don't know about her not wanting responsibility. I think the truth is that she has battled with something and not been able to defeat it, even with help from me, and from counselling. And now she's not well, the whole thing is just too much. She doesn't want to look because, well, it hurts, I guess. No-one wants to be confronted by their 'failure'. For her, the answer is to look the other way, focus on what is good, and forget what is bad. I completely get that.

I'm not looking at fixing the problem - I can't, not withoput breaking something. I'm looking at cheating the rules of the game.

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 180
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