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RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:09:56 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
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~ passes AS the smelling salts, then arranges muh hoop skirts, settling down with a serene smile

Im being good now.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 141

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:15:24 AM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The mods aren't going to moderate you for suggesting something that is against the rules. But because it's against the rules people have been trying to point out to you that it's simply not going to work on CM.

Do you really feel that your post was polite?

Smiles

Now thats a valid point. Was I polite to him? At what point do you stop being polite? But that might be a good topic for another post.

MV

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 142

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:23:50 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

I'm interested in finding out, since we are discussing what is and is not polite on the Internet, if you feel that your behavior in your post was polite.

You see, as I've stated, I think it's terribly rude to insult and devalue people by announcing their opinions aren't wanted or needed. Whereas you feel it's acceptable for people to put these in their posts.

I'm attempting to figure out what you feel is and is not polite.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/10/2010 11:27:27 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 143

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:30:24 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
MY POINT.........was..... who's version of POLITE do you suggest we utilize?

Well lets see how to answer this whiny self absorbed passive aggressive post that seems to feel a post forces them to do something?

Just use mine. Works like a charm (most of the time).
Apparently, I have a tendancy to get "muddled".

In other words, I fuck up way too often to get by without being polite.

Twoshoes.......your method is working far better than the OP's. Because if the above post of HIS, is what he considers polite.......I will refrain.

I'd much MUCH rather he sees me as a rude bitch, than his version of polite.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 144

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:32:37 AM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

They moved the thread so were reading it.
MV

Oddly enough, someone suggested waaaay back on post # 7 that this thread would likely be moved.

It does help when you pay attention to where things are supposed to go.
I knew it would get moved because it had to do with posting in general and was not specifically related to BDSM discussion

People have been rightly pointing out that politeness is usually a 2 way street.

I am generally polite as a matter of course.
While snark does sometimes push my buttons, my responses are usually based upon: is it true (to the best of my knowledge) and is it kind?

As for answering outside of the target audience, I do do that, but not out of defiance or just to hear myself 'talk'.
I do that if I believe I have something of value to offer in experience, perspective or opinion.

_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 145

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:34:37 AM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Actually that's not true at all. Many questions are rude and many versions of questions that could be polite but are phrased rudely are well... rude.

Perfect example: "I'll ignore all subs" vs. "I'm mostly interested in the responses of dominants".

Politeness is taking other people's feelings into account. There is nothing to be gained from insulting the opinion of a particular group by announcing that it is undesired and unneeded when all they have to do is not respond to the posts by those users.

Perhaps you missed or did not read a great deal of this long series of posts.

However, as stated before repeatedly, I agree with you completely. Other than in the area of asking for a specific veiwpoint.

It is not rude if asked in a reasonable way. It does not belittle anyone to simply try and whittle down responses to the type you most want to hear. Now if you are doing it for insulting reasons, such as you are a woman and what could a woman possibly know? Then sure. They are rude, ignorant and being just plain stupid, so deserve no politeness.

If however as was the original idea, you want to understand the workings of a specific type of mindset, asking for say a submissive or a Masters answer makes sense. Now I personally would welcome all replies and always do. But just asking for one type of reply since it is your question, does not in and of itself make it insulting or rude. Nor does it make others unable to reply. My statement from the begining has been everyone can reply. The question was though, why not extend the courtesy to the one asking the question and make a choice to be polite and allow those asked to reply. Could the questioner sift through 100 replies from people who do not think like the one asked? Sure and on here they most likely will. Are some of the replies going to be entertaining? Some helpful? And even on occasion buried in the ton of posts, many of which will be off topic, there will be someone who has the right mindset who replies. Of those, some will even be helpful.

I made this post not to force anyone to do anything. I had hoped, obviously mostly in error, that people would consider the politeness issue. Instead probably 90% address strictly the idea that they have the right to post. Well since that never was an issue they did not add anything to the discussion.

Any way thanks for your points.

MV

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 146

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:40:43 AM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

They moved the thread so were reading it.
MV

Oddly enough, someone suggested waaaay back on post # 7 that this thread would likely be moved.

It does help when you pay attention to where things are supposed to go.
I knew it would get moved because it had to do with posting in general and was not specifically related to BDSM discussion

People have been rightly pointing out that politeness is usually a 2 way street.

I am generally polite as a matter of course.
While snark does sometimes push my buttons, my responses are usually based upon: is it true (to the best of my knowledge) and is it kind?

As for answering outside of the target audience, I do do that, but not out of defiance or just to hear myself 'talk'.
I do that if I believe I have something of value to offer in experience, perspective or opinion.

As well you should. Having valuable insight can often give help where someone else was trying to limit it.

Now was this off topic? Probably, yet it arose in Ask a Master so that was where I placed it since most of the people replying obviously read that area. It therefore was not a lets talk about religion or cars thread. It dealt with how people who were in a specific area such as Ask a Master would ask a Master and request a Masters response and get answers on how their cats breath smelled from a Non-Master.

Anyway thanks for your points.

MV

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 147

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:41:08 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

I made this post not to force anyone to do anything. I had hoped, obviously mostly in error, that people would consider the politeness issue. Instead probably 90% address strictly the idea that they have the right to post. Well since that never was an issue they did not add anything to the discussion.

I believe you are wrong - people are considering the politeness issue. But we don't agree with you and feel that the OP is the one being impolite with the request.

When one requests a specific viewpoint but acknowledges the validity of others (again, I reference Iron Bear) people are not offended. When they outright say "I do not want X posting", that is rude and people respond rudely.

This is not a structured discussion group where it's very easy to say "Ok let's hear from X group now and Y group in a hour". That is easily found in real time, lifestyle events. But not so much on Collarme. There are, however, excellent resources where one can go and only hear from one group or another. Internet forums, mailing lists, and other sites that clearly seperate everyone out.

That is simply not how CollarChat is designed though. So why post it here and attempt to restrict when, at least nine times out of ten, it comes off rudely and one can simply visit another site that is built for that specific sort of question?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/10/2010 11:42:37 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 148

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:45:18 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

Now was this off topic? Probably, yet it arose in Ask a Master so that was where I placed it since most of the people replying obviously read that area. It therefore was not a lets talk about religion or cars thread. It dealt with how people who were in a specific area such as Ask a Master would ask a Master and request a Masters response and get answers on how their cats breath smelled from a Non-Master.

Anyway thanks for your points.

MV

Just FYI - it's considered off-topic because it deals with how people post on the message board and not BDSM/lifestyle/*insert your favorite term here*. While this specific thread was prompted by a thread in "ask a master", this sort of issue comes up in all the forums so it's probably fairest to put it here.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/10/2010 11:56:57 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 149

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:46:28 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I made this post not to force anyone to do anything. I had hoped, obviously mostly in error, that people would consider the politeness issue. Instead probably 90% address strictly the idea that they have the right to post. Well since that never was an issue they did not add anything to the discussion.

Many did consider the politeness issue... especially the politeness of yourself and the examples of other OPs. Im sorry you missed reading them.

quote:

The question was though, why not extend the courtesy to the one asking the question and make a choice to be polite and allow those asked to reply. Could the questioner sift through 100 replies from people who do not think like the one asked? Sure and on here they most likely will. Are some of the replies going to be entertaining? Some helpful? And even on occasion buried in the ton of posts, many of which will be off topic, there will be someone who has the right mindset who replies. Of those, some will even be helpful.

If you are only looking for replies that agree with yours (as in the OPs) then why not just say... post only if you agree? Not like that will happen either, but its far better than pitting one group against another, no?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 150

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:46:37 AM

Twoshoes

Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
POLITE

Can you give me the defininition you use, in triplicate, with all the big lawyerese words? I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a definition today to paraphrase.

Politeness may to refer to different things - considerateness*, deference, etiquette, a specific manner of assertively expressing ideas, etc - but it is ultimately meant to express respect or maintain likeability.
x3

Examples:
- Returning shopping carts - considerateness expressing respect towards the staff and making them like you.
- "I hope you don't mind my reply to this question addressed at Masters, but I don't think everyone minds a bratty submissive." - deference + expressing an idea => respect and likeability.
- Picking up someone's dropped things - considerateness => mostly likeability.
- Not blowing out someone else's birthday candles - etiquette + considerateness => mostly respect (probably would still be likeable if you did blow them out).

That was my best and honest attempt.

Hopefully, not many people will read this far into this thread.
edit: Spelling.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 9/10/2010 11:53:49 AM >

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 151

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:55:49 AM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I'm interested in finding out, since we are discussing what is and is not polite on the Internet, if you feel that your behavior in your post was polite.

You see, as I've stated, I think it's terribly rude to insult and devalue people by announcing their opinions aren't wanted or needed. Whereas you feel it's acceptable for people to put these in their posts.

I'm attempting to figure out what you feel is and is not polite.

No problem.

Was my post polite? No.

I never claimed to be perfect. At times, even I can fall into sarcastic joke responses. Especially when he equates rudeness to someone not replying.

If I had been simply polite, my response should have been this.

Thanks for your attempting to point our potential rules violations. I was not being rude. Having only a limited time to reply, I simply limited myself to those who addressed the topic. Should you wish to actually take part in the discussion of the topic, please do so and be assure you will get a reply. Simply stating a Collarme rule does not really require a reply.

MV

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 152

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:58:11 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

Thanks.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 153

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:59:17 AM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
POLITE

Can you give me the defininition you use, in triplicate, with all the big lawyerese words? I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a definition today to paraphrase.

Politeness may to refer to different things - considerateness*, deference, etiquette, a specific manner of assertively expressing ideas, etc - but it is ultimately meant to express respect or maintain likeability.
x3

Examples:
- Returning shopping carts - considerateness expressing respect towards the staff and making them like you.
- "I hope you don't mind my reply to this question addressed at Masters, but I don't think everyone minds a bratty submissive." - deference + expressing an idea => respect and likeability.
- Picking up someone's dropped things - considerateness => mostly likeability.
- Not blowing out someone else's birthday candles - etiquette + considerateness => mostly respect (probably would still be likeable if you did blow them out).

That was my best and honest attempt. Hopefully, not many people will read this far into this thread.
edit: Spelling.

All pretty reasonable ways to show politeness. And the second one addressed this issue with a way around simple politeness as in not replying because someone requested, and adding your own thoughts in such a way as to defuse their inclusion.

MV

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 154

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 11:59:57 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Another thing not brought into the discussion, at least not that I've seen, is that many people will not be polite towards someone they think poorly of. Some people will not be polite to someone they've no respect for. The OP may be reading some posts that has a flavour of "I think the OP is an idiot so I do not feel inclined to be polite to such a putz".......

I know I am guilty of the above. There are some posters I will gleefully be impolite towards and yet others, that I would feel horrible if they took my posts wrongly and felt I was being rude towards them...... aka, humour gone wrong. It happens...

OR, since I've only seen him posting here just recently, perhaps he is misreading some of the good natured joking around that COULD be perceived wrongly, by someone that was unaware of the relationships between posters.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 155

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 12:06:48 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

You've got a good point. I've seen people come in, think the community was ganging up on a defeneless sweetheart when it was really a troll who'd been so insulting and offensive no one could stand them anymore.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 156

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 12:09:11 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

You've got a good point. I've seen people come in, think the community was ganging up on a defeneless sweetheart when it was really a troll who'd been so insulting and offensive no one could stand them anymore.

I used the example of work before---on the first day on a new work site, you don't know the personalities, the undercurrents, the jokes. So many come here expecting that they SHOULD, and that they should also fit right in, immediately. So they are appalled when I call Domi a fishfucker, not knowing that in real time, I would be happy to buy the man a beer and a beef sandwich.

Tricky waters, this internet.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 157

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 12:17:26 PM

MastrVran

Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If you are only looking for replies that agree with yours (as in the OPs) then why not just say... post only if you agree? Not like that will happen either, but its far better than pitting one group against another, no?

This brings up a point. Pitting one group against another? Asking for one groups response does not pit anyone against another. If anything it takes all conflict out. Other than the conflict which individuals in the group might express, such as Master A calling Master B a moron for doing something a particular way. So if anything it pits the asked for opinions to be at odds against each other.

No where in asking for a specific groups opinions does it make any other groups opinions less unless it is phrased that way in the request. "I do not want to hear from any stupid submissives on this" would be an obvious antagonistic statement. "I would like to hear the Master's perspective on this point". This is not rude.

Asking to post only if you agree is also not something ever suggested. This is not about getting a lockstep answer where everyone nods. Its about a specific mindset, in which many differing ideas and beliefs will probably be brought out. But the one underlying thing is the mindset of the responders which should hopefully be similar.

But this is for a different post really.

MV

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 158

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 12:25:40 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If you are only looking for replies that agree with yours (as in the OPs) then why not just say... post only if you agree? Not like that will happen either, but its far better than pitting one group against another, no?

This brings up a point. Pitting one group against another? Asking for one groups response does not pit anyone against another. If anything it takes all conflict out. Other than the conflict which individuals in the group might express, such as Master A calling Master B a moron for doing something a particular way. So if anything it pits the asked for opinions to be at odds against each other.

No where in asking for a specific groups opinions does it make any other groups opinions less unless it is phrased that way in the request. "I do not want to hear from any stupid submissives on this" would be an obvious antagonistic statement. "I would like to hear the Master's perspective on this point". This is not rude.

The problem is that the vast majority of people who attempt the responders to their posts are not polite. Perhaps the focus of your rant should not be those who respond but those who can't/won't phrase things politely and have consideration for others in their requests.

Furthermore, I still don't see why people who are so gung-ho about only getting answers from one group would select this forum. One where the mods have repeatedly stated we can all post anywhere, instead of one designed for just masters/subs/slaves/etc.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 9/10/2010 12:27:23 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 159

RE: Having the right vs being in the right (Rant) - 9/10/2010 12:28:22 PM

thornhappy

Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

It's apparent that you have a different standard of behavior than what's set up on Collarme. As noted above, this isn't a mailing list or structured discussion as may be seen at a convention. It's an open discussion board, as the board itself says. Even non-Goreans post on the Gorean board.

And this isn't the Gorean board, where folks will jump on kajira posting in response to a discussion amongst the Free.

(Why do I mention that? Because your posts prior to this were almost entirely on the Gorean board, where you carry out very long discussions.)

(in reply to MastrVran)

Post #: 160

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