RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (Full Version)

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DomYngBlk -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 6:51:26 AM)

lol unreal......All good. I am sure Mickey D's would thank you for announcing that 16-18 year olds are adults and shouldn't be under child labor laws....Why not let 16 year olds in the Armed Forces then? If we are going to make them be responsible....hell lets let them get married at 16 without parental approval...




IrishMist -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 7:06:33 AM)

~FR~
While I can understand the teachers frustration; I don't agree with what she did. It does not matter if she did not mentione names, or school districts/systems...her postings showed a lack of professionalism and ethics...and yes, I believe she should not only be suspended, but also fired for her lack of consideration.




tazzygirl -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 7:21:27 AM)

Pst... in some states, they can get married without parental approval. Mississippi, West Virginia, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland and Oklahoma allow pregnant teens or teens who have already had a child to get married without parental consent.

In some states teens can live alone if they can prove they can support themselves.




tazzygirl -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 7:22:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~FR~
While I can understand the teachers frustration; I don't agree with what she did. It does not matter if she did not mentione names, or school districts/systems...her postings showed a lack of professionalism and ethics...and yes, I believe she should not only be suspended, but also fired for her lack of consideration.


I agree, Irish. I dont believe she should be teaching.




DomYngBlk -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 7:25:33 AM)

Come again? Why are you arguing with me then....if you agree with what I am saying....




tazzygirl -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 7:32:42 AM)

I never said the woman should keep her job. Not one have I even addressed her other than to say I understand her frustrations. What I have said is that 10th to 12th graders are not "kids" and should not be treated as if they are. Its an insult to them, and to the system in general. At that age, they should be learning responsibility, accountability and maturity. And its on that alone that you have been arguing with me.




came4U -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 8:03:08 AM)

quote:

I never said the woman should keep her job. Not one have I even addressed her other than to say I understand her frustrations. What I have said is that 10th to 12th graders are not "kids" and should not be treated as if they are. Its an insult to them, and to the system in general. At that age, they should be learning responsibility, accountability and maturity. And its on that alone that you have been arguing with me.


If they aren't kids, yet not adults then what are they? What category of progress should be be considered--except for being STUDENTS within a system that educates according to local and state guidelines?

oook.  If they aren't 'kids' then what are they?  If they are still 'learning responsibility, accountability and maturity' still then are they considered adults?

Should the students of grades 10-12 be considered 'young adults' therefore not a child, yet not an adult?  What law prevails that THIS system of counting designated responsibility is onus upon the said 'young adult' to fulfill the duty of an 'almost' adult??

If they were considered adults then wouldn't they have (as you claim) automatically have some sort of status as all-knowing and able and beyond any need for 'learning' as status quo currently legislates vs your idea that it should negate because of age and grade?




tazzygirl -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 9:07:39 AM)

Yeah, you came late into this discussion. Thats not what is being discussed at all. The whole thing started off as treating 16 - 18 year olds as "kids" and not squashing their egos. At what point do you stop treating them like "kids" and start telling them the truth?




DomYngBlk -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 10:10:12 AM)

So that we can complete the circle. What truths? And whose truths? and who is telling them?




jack8007 -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 10:23:01 AM)

Look, people - this is easy.    There's way more going on here than meets the eye - we don't have the facts.   On the face of it, it's an easy free speech issue, except that the school district is not going to expose themselves to a massive employment lawsuit without some good cause.

If the teacher or the school wants anybody's help, they will ask for it.  

Meanwhile, the media wants to whip you into a froth, so they can stand on the sidelines and sell stuff.

And everybody fell for it.




Elisabella -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 4:43:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: girlygurl

Who's responsibility is it to teach behavior and life skills? If your answer is, " the parents" I think your expectations are too high. Not that I don't agree with you, but reality dictates that not all parents are capable of doing so. Yea, I know, then they shouldn't be having children.

What I see on a daily basis are children that get the most structure from school, which includes behavior and life skills.

It takes a village.


You think my expectations are too high for expecting parents to parent their child?

I mean of course if a teacher wants to go above and beyond and try to make a difference in a child's non-academic life, that's great...but at the same time it's not going to do the kid much good if a teacher convinces him not to join a gang but doesn't bother making sure he's functionally literate at graduation, you know?

If our educational system weren't complete shit, I'd be more likely to suggest teachers take on additional roles, but if they're not doing their basic job they shouldn't be branching out.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 4:48:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

snip

If our educational system weren't complete shit, I'd be more likely to suggest teachers take on additional roles, but if they're not doing their basic job they shouldn't be branching out.



What most do not understand is the fact that it is impossible for teachers to do their basic job, if a child has personal issues that need addressing first. Someone earlier in this thread said it takes a village. I find this to be true, and sadly, many times, the parents are the least interested citizens of the village.




Elisabella -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 4:59:19 PM)

What do you mean by personal issues? 'Attitude problem and lack of interest in school academics' describes the average teenager. The only contact a teacher has with students outside of the classroom is detention or extracurriculars. Detention is the only real discipline a teacher can administer, aside from suspension or expulsion which just takes the kid out of school.

Personally, I believe the biggest difference a teacher can make is by having high academic standards for the student. Not only does it teach them the subject better, but it teaches them discipline, if they know that there's a genuine risk of failing and being held back. No more skating by with C's and D's when the kid doesn't know a damn thing and clearly doesn't put any effort into learning.

20% of students graduate high school functionally illiterate. http://education-portal.com/articles/Grim_Illiteracy_Statistics_Indicate_Americans_Have_a_Reading_Problem.html

This needs to be addressed...I can't imagine what English teacher in their right mind would pass a student like this...part of the problem is the system, where a failed credit can be made up in a 2 month summer school program that has even lower standards than the actual class itself.




rulemylife -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 4:59:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Kendcky.


The article clearly says the teacher did not crticize a student. Only generally criticized students.


If the teacher called out a specific student with insults, the teacher should be not only fired, but sued and fined. It would be very serious.

But it didn't happen.

And actually a lot of employers have policies that you can not bad mouth your company off time, but she did not name the school or district. Or use her full name.

What she said seems to coincide with conservative memes, so a bunch of leftists want her punished.


Let me ask you something.

Why is it that you need to constantly use a term like leftists in an all too apparent attempt to disparage anyone you disagree with?

And before you ask I'm proud to be called that.

I just don't understand why you and so many other conservatives view this as productive.







outhere69 -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 5:17:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXsoumisXx
we might say that 2 parent families need both parents working.. but think about this... when one parent was home, up until the early 70's.. homes were much smaller... family cars were not fancy..it is about priorities and values.

when we have children, we sacrifice as needed.

Hey folks, where do you think the hippies from the '60s came from?  They were children of the '50s, born of people who'd lived through the events of WWII.  You know, the time of only-the-dad-works, Christian, conservative America.

BTW, ever lived in California?  Most of the jobs in my old profession were on the coasts, home of very pricey real estate - unless you want to commute 2 hours each way.  Even the rents were out of sight.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/18/2011 5:36:44 PM)

I am speaking of things such as momma got beat by daddy last night and I slept in the closet because I was afraid. Momma didnt feed us supper last night because she was passed out on the couch drunk again. Momma has to work at night, and even though I am only 11, I have to make sure my brothers and sisters get supper and their bath.

We have so many children who do not get their basic needs met at home. Sometimes, a hug and a shoulder to cry on ARE more important the the 3 R's.




girlygurl -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/19/2011 5:23:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: girlygurl

Who's responsibility is it to teach behavior and life skills? If your answer is, " the parents" I think your expectations are too high. Not that I don't agree with you, but reality dictates that not all parents are capable of doing so. Yea, I know, then they shouldn't be having children.

What I see on a daily basis are children that get the most structure from school, which includes behavior and life skills.

It takes a village.


You think my expectations are too high for expecting parents to parent their child?

I mean of course if a teacher wants to go above and beyond and try to make a difference in a child's non-academic life, that's great...but at the same time it's not going to do the kid much good if a teacher convinces him not to join a gang but doesn't bother making sure he's functionally literate at graduation, you know?

If our educational system weren't complete shit, I'd be more likely to suggest teachers take on additional roles, but if they're not doing their basic job they shouldn't be branching out.

We all have expectations of what a parent should or shouldn't do. The point I was trying to make is not every parent has the ability to parent a child as you or I may see fit.
I see first graders come to school, telling stories of their mothers too sick to get off the couch to bring the child to school (sick as in mentally ill) I hear the same kid tell me his 2 1/2 year old brother pees in his bedroom because he's taken apart the potty training unit to play with, all the while this first grader is trying to keep his mother happy and his little brother from peeing in his room. SOME parents do not have the skills to parent. We as educators have the responsibility to teach what we are suppose to teach AND many times teach behavior and life skills to those little ones that don't have roll models at home.
God love the parent who actually looks in the child's backpack for homework and actually takes a proactive roll in their Childs education. I can go on and on about the dumb ass young punks who think they're teaching their kid something like, "black people can't eat the same thing as white people" that came straight out of the mouth of a kindergartener. Who the phuck is teaching him that shit? Its the dumb ass parent.
So no, I don't have a lot of faith in SOME parents to teach their children behavior and life skills. Hell, did you know they actually have behavior and life skill specialists that come into the school to work with these children! Students are being seen individually and collectively by school councilors multiple times a week, be it for special services or the child needs time one on one with a councilor. I'm talking first graders people! These babies have such tough lives at home that they can't wait to get to school.

I guess i've rambled enough and not sure if I've made my point..... Basically, its not just the teacher OR just the parent that has to take the whole responsibility of which child succeeds in class. Its a collective effort.

More kids, less teachers due to budget cuts, yet they are expected to teach the same curriculm and have all their students succeed? In a perfect world yes we want every student to succeed but in my little part of the world children are only go to be successful if they have the support at school AND home.




IrishMist -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/19/2011 6:38:15 AM)

This is a general reply to the 'off topic' that has become part of the discussion here. The discussion that seems to be centering around who is responsible for the raising of our children.

I am kind of torn on this, mainly because I fimly believe that the raising of children, resides solely with that of the parents. BUT, I also APPRECIATE an outsider who steps up and takes an active interest in a child that is not their own.

I have raised 4 children, 3 who have already left home; since their daddy passed away almost 14 years ago. I did it while working full time, sometimes 24/7, there were even times that I was required to be gone for days on end. I can honestly say that I would not have welcomed any outside interference or help. They were my responsibility and I did my best to do right by them.

I think that I have been half lucky in regards to their schooling. My two boys both struggled very hard through school, the only reason they stayed in was because they both wanted to join the military, which they did after graduation. I can proudly say that they are both career military now, even though they still deplore and struggle with anything 'educational'. My oldest daughter, from 8th grade up till her graduation, and even on to med school....struggled through math, she failed her math classes the first year in high school, the only thing that helped was the fact that we managed to find her a tutor that could help ( I am terrible at math ). It tore me up that I could not help them enjoy school much more than what they did, but, to this day, they still tell me that they hated highschool. You have to remember too that through all this, I was only home about 3 days out of a week, the rest of the time was spent working. I can't remember a single teacher that went out of their way to help them, or to ask if they needed help, or to just offer up a shoulder if they needed to unload. I do however, remember quite clearly, be told by the school system that my kids needed special help and medications because they were not doing well.
That was their solution. That was their only offer of support.
We are not big talkers when it comes to asking for help...meaning that unless the school had asked me what the problem might have been, the kids would not have said anything to anyone about how hard those early years were for us.
Thankfully, we managed to somehow overcome and all three of them graduated and went on to do even better things with their life.

My youngest, for some reason, is another story. In some ways, she has endured the worse in regards to being in a one parent home. Her daddy died when she was just a baby, she does not even remember him. She was basically raised by her brothers and sisters while they were still here, and then with the help of some distant family when I had to be out of town...it does not seem to have held her back at all. In fact, I would go so far as to say that she actually thrives and does better when I am NOT here lol. My absenses seem to have actually brought the two of us closer together. There is not a single aspect of her life that I do not know about or that she is afraid to talk about...and vice versa.

I had one issue with her in regards to school and it was in her 6th grade year. She came home with a D in her english class. I looked at the grade, I looked at what the teacher had listed in regards to her efforts, and I knew right away what the issue was.
She was not applying herself; missing homework, not studying, etc. The usual things that kids go through for the most part.
Along with her report card was a summons from her english teacher for a conference.

My daughter knew I was upset over the report card, and she knew why I was upset.
You see, I had always told all the kids that the actual grade does not mean as much to me as the effort put forth. You can try your hardest and still fail a class, simply because it's too hard or you are not understanding the content. What I refused to accept though, was a bad grade because they were refusing to try.
My daughter lost everything for a grading period that year...the computer, the phone, the television, her books...she was allowed only library books that were required for her reading classes.
Taking those things away just about killed her because, let's face it, she had grown up with those as her companions.

When we went to see the teacher, he started to explain what was happening but I cut him off, and told him that I knew exactly what was wrong. Then I looked at my daughter and waited for her to admit it.
She did. She told the teacher that she had not been doing her homework, was not studying, was not applying herself.
She took responsibility for herself and promised to do better.
She's never gotten less than a B on her report cards since then.

What I am trying to say with this is that, there ARE some teachers in the system who DO take an extra step in helping the kids in the schools...BUT, their options ARE LIMITED NOW. When I was in school, when many of us were in school, things were quite different.
Now, you can't even tell a child that they need to do better because it might damage their self esteem.

I don't have a lot of faith in our educational system anymore...It does however serve a need. It's unfortunate that we have allowed a few 'grumbles' to change how that system works.

For me, and my own family...it's not up to a school system or a 'village' to raise my children to be responsible adults. THAT IS MY JOB. I took on that responsibility when I petitioned for custody, and when I gave birth myself. It's a job that never ends, and I hope to hell that it never does.
What's more, I am very outspoken when told HOW I can raise my own kids. I don't allow ANYONE, to interfer in our personal life, and that includes their upbringing. The law be dammed.

Kids now a days are being to left to determine their own upbringing. They are being allowed to decide how their accountability and responsibilities should come about. Parents have become LAZY when it comes to accepting their own responsibilities in regard to their own children. Yes, I said LAZY. I don't give a flying fuck if two parents are working...it is THEIR responsibility to look after their children and raise them to be responsible adults. All it takes is an active interest in their lives. For ALL THEIR LIFE.





truckinslave -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/19/2011 6:44:03 AM)

Airborne!!!!





truckinslave -> RE: Don't criticize the educatonal system or students (2/19/2011 6:46:11 AM)

Airborne!!!




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