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RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 7:41:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Lancet appears to be down. The other two have nothing to do with controlled studies of NDE's.

Let's focus for a minute here. The position that consciousness is a product of brain function is untenable in the face of veridical evidence of consciousness when there is no brain function. Period. I posted those few excerpts from medical journals only to make the point that consciousness during states when there is no brain function is a known phenomenon, not to set any or all of them up as the linchpin on which that fact turns. You don't need to wait for Lancet to come back up to research the issue.

Of course, I am perfectly aware that some people will deny the phenomenon no matter how often it's reported, and spin endless rationalizations in support of that denial, all the while pretending to be entirely open-minded fellows who are, after all, perfectly willing to believe it as soon as a six-months dead corpse crawls out of his grave and invites them to lunch for a chat, or, for another example, as soon as they are shown "controlled studies" involving subjects who meet the criteria of being clinically dead. Think about it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/31/2011 7:51:25 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 7:51:23 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Lancet appears to be down. The other two have nothing to do with controlled studies of NDE's.

Let's focus for a minute here. The position that consciousness is a product of brain function is untenable in the face of veridical evidence of consciousness when there is no brain function. Period. I posted those few excerpts from medical journals only to make the point that consciousness during states when there is no brain function is a known phenomenon, not to set any or all of them up as the linchpin on which that fact turns. You don't need to wait for Lancet to come back up to research the issue.

Of course, I am perfectly aware that some people will deny the phenomenon no matter how often it's reported, and spin endless rationalizations in support of that denial, even pretending to be open-minded fellows who are perfectly willing to believe it as soon as a six-months dead corpse crawls out of his grave and invites them to lunch for a chat, or, for another example, as soon as they are shown "controlled studies" involving subjects who meet the criteria of clinical death. Think about it.

K.


You think about it. The only attempts at replicating supposed NDEs in a controlled situation that Ive read failed. The evidence that in your opinion is "veridical" doesnt mean shit. Unless the conditions are controlled there can be all kinds of clues and cues as to what was going on (flapping of arms, ridiculous), there is no way of knowing how much brain function there actually was, etc.

There are plenty of opportunities to study patients who recover from "clinical death". It probably happens every day in every major hospital in the country.

When you find something real, let us know.

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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 7:56:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The evidence that in your opinion is "veridical" doesnt mean shit.

When people report being conscious during a period when they were verifiably flatlined, and are able to accurately describe perceptions of events that verifiably occurred while they were flatlined, the only thing that "doesn't mean shit" is your refusal to wear a chasuble and make an honest man of yourself.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/31/2011 7:58:09 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 7:57:52 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The evidence that in your opinion is "veridical" doesnt mean shit.

When people report being conscious during a period when they were verifiably flatlined, and are able to accurately describe perceptions of events that verifiably occurred while they were flatlined, the only thing "doesn't mean shit" is your refusal to wear a chausible and make an honest man of yourself.

K.


Too bad it hasnt VERIFIABLY happened. And if you want to play pseudo-intellectual at least spell the goddam words right. Its chasuble. And I gave up dressing for Halloween a long time ago.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 5/31/2011 8:01:34 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 8:00:03 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Too bad it hasnt VERIFIABLY happened.


No of course not, they're all liars ...the doctors, the nurses, the patients, the whole lot of them. It's a conspiracy.



quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And if you want to play pseudo-intellectual at least spell the goddam words right. Its chasuble.

Yeah I caught that, thanks. About three minutes before your edit, actually. Try to keep up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And I gave up dressing for Halloween a long time ago.

Really? You don't take your clown suit off anymore even for Halloween?

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/31/2011 8:07:00 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 8:05:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Too bad it hasnt VERIFIABLY happened.

No of course not, they're all liars ...the doctors, the nurses, the patients, the whole lot of them. It's a conspiracy.



K.




They dont have to lie. Without controls there are any number of ways that information can inadvertently be passed to the "clinically dead" after they are conscious. Whether there was actual flatlining could be in question, etc etc etc.

Again, they tried controlled studies and they failed, not a single instance where someone could "see" something that would require an out of body experience.

Believe whatever fairy tales you want, and, as I said, come back if and when you find something real.

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 8:27:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

They dont have to lie. Without controls there are any number of ways that information can inadvertently be passed to the "clinically dead" after they are conscious. Whether there was actual flatlining could be in question, etc etc etc.

Feeling so threatened that you're making up ways to dismiss the evidence before you even look at it? Yeah, maybe the EEG monitor was wrong. Who'd know? Maybe the doctors were laughing too hard to read it correctly. They could have been telling jokes or, hell, how do we know they weren't drinking? (I'm just trying to help.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Again, they tried controlled studies and they failed

Got people to volunteer for cardiac arrest, did they? With good payoffs for the resucitation failures? And, unh... the link is where?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/31/2011 8:30:05 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 8:30:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

They dont have to lie. Without controls there are any number of ways that information can inadvertently be passed to the "clinically dead" after they are conscious. Whether there was actual flatlining could be in question, etc etc etc.

Feeling so threatened that you're making up ways to dismiss the evidence before you even look at it? Yeah, maybe the EEG monitor was wrong. Who'd know? Maybe the doctors were laughing too hard to read it correctly. They could have been telling jokes or, hell, how do we know they weren't drinking? (I'm just trying to help.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Again, they tried controlled studies and they failed

Got people to volunteer for cardiac arrest, did they? With good payoffs for the resucitation failures? And, unh... the link is where?

K.



Threatened???? ROFL.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 9:00:07 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Threatened???? ROFL.

So that single word is what stood out for you, eh?

Let's see now, EEG monitors failing all over the place in multiple hospitals during surgeries and nobody noticed. Incompetent staff everywhere, "inadvertently" corrupting studies. Patients jumping on the chance for fame and a book contract. And God knows what else (if you'll forgive the expression). But it's not that easy to make folks who are really smart look foolish, is it. You showed'em, by golly.

Threatened? Nahh, you're an open-minded fellow.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/31/2011 9:15:37 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 9:26:46 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Threatened???? ROFL.

So that single word is what stood out for you, eh?

Let's see now, EEG monitors failing all over the place in multiple hospitals during surgeries and nobody noticed. Incompetent staff everywhere, "inadvertently" corrupting studies. Patients jumping on the chance for fame and a book contract. And God knows what else (if you'll forgive the expression). But it's not that easy to make folks who are really smart look foolish, is it. You showed'em, by golly.

Threatened? Nahh, you're an open-minded fellow.

K.



Get real, dude. I am not the least bit threatened by anything nature has in store for us. Requiring some evidence has nothing to do with being threatened, and you have nothing credible (though I will see if Lancet is back up later).

Edit: Ahhhh, found the study. VEEERRRRYYY convincing.

"We defined NDE as the reported memory of all impressions during a special state of consciousness, including specific elements such as out-of-body experience, pleasant feelings, and seeing a tunnel, a light, deceased relatives, or a life review."

And a "veridical" report of one patient who recalled things from a period of time when he very well could have been concious. GMAFB.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 5/31/2011 9:40:02 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 9:42:27 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

[1] You're making all that up, it's a slippery slope.

[2] What exactly is "non-physical reality" BTW?

[3] Maybe you should look up the existing definition of "reality" before you start making up your own.

[4] BTW, Christopher Lash uses "pathology" in that sense throughout Culture of Narcissism.

I'm catching up... I've numbered your statements to make responding easier:

1. You're lying again.
2. Consciousness.
3. The state or quality of being real ... That which is described as real is genuine as opposed to counterfeit, false, or merely supposed.
4. Christopher Lasch (you mis-spelled it) is a historian and social critic with no clinical training and probably no business writing about narcissism in the first place if we are to judge from his misuse of the term "pathology," which you claimed was the clinical definition in psychology. But thanks, I wondered where you ever got such a notion.

Isn't this fun? Have a nice day.

K.


1.)Didn't make up any definitions, I cited my source, you don't like it, take it up with Lasch - so no, I don't "lie", you did.

2.) if it's real, it has a physical presence, it leave physical traces, it interacts in some way with physical reality, it is physical - if it doesn't it isn't real, to insist otherwise is really making shit up.

3.) ergo, if consciouness is real, it has physical properties, even if it's just a series of synapses firing or a set of chemical interactions, i.e., the seat of consciousness is currently thought to reside in the anterior Cingulate cortex, keep up.

Materialism may be a philosophy, but it's also how science is done, it how we sort out what is real from what isn't, try it.

4.) See number one, take it up with Lasch, he was quoting if I recall, I see no reason why a person cannot be pathologically aesthetic, I can think of lots of examples, in fact, in fact I think it usually goes hand in hand with being anal retentive, but we can take that up in the other thread, I think we're talking physics in here, and that's pretty materialistic, by definition I believe.

This is fun, and I had a very nice day, thank you.



(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 9:48:07 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I've banged a couple big girls.

Wait........is that was this thread is about?



Origins

I speak in two

sometimes    one grows from many
sometimes    many splits from one

two    the birth of deathly life
two    the leaving off

birth    the union of all makes and kills
leaving off    strips and is stripped

when deathly life divides itself
exchanges never cease

sometimes    through Love everything grows into one
sometimes    through Hate everyone splits into two

--------------

Fire and Water and Earth and the unfilled measure of Air

Hate Hated twice by the roots equals them
Love that's in them becomes their friend by the length and width

mind, look at her
don't sit there eyes astounded

born in their bodies
men worship her

she makes them think of desire
doing what joins them in peace and friendship

so they call her JOYOUS JOINER
Gethosyne           Aphrodite

no one alive has seen her
because she swirls in their eyes

all the roots are equal
the same in birth and age

ruling with different honor
each according to their nature
--------------

Excerpts from Empedocles, From Nature
c. 800 B.C.



Does all that mean I can go find another big girl to bang?

It's the meaning of life.

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 9:50:51 PM   
lickenforyou


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Status: offline 		Dr. Karl Jansen has reproduced NDEs. Other researchers have also. Plus, just because brain activity isn't detected by an EEG doesn't mean that some other form of activity isn't going on (in this universe I mean).

I would love there to be life after death. But I'm not going to believe anecdotal evidence just to convince myself.


_____________________________

I changed my profile name to - toserveonlyYou - but am having trouble posting in the forums with that profile.

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:07:57 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Brain death is considered irreversible: if these patients lived to tell the tale, they were not "dead".

I think you might be confused about the meaning of word consciousness, Kirata - it's a noun, but it describes a state, not a thing, any more than "hot" or "cold" or "happy" is a thing - "the state of being aware", it's really more of an adjective, but it is measurable, and quantifiable, therefore real, even if we can't pin it down precisely.

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RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:12:43 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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Status: offline 		The AWARE study may have results late this year or early next year. I'll lay 100 to 1 that there isnt a single instance in the 10s of thousands of OBEs they will have examined where someone could actually read something out of sight from the operating table.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:22:39 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I see no reason the brain cannot operate on a quantum level, it would explain all sort of mystical phenomena- unfortunately, you need a neutrino detector, and currently, those are like the size of a football field, it's gonna hafta stay on the backburner for a while.

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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:26:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I see no reason the brain cannot operate on a quantum level, it would explain all sort of mystical phenomena- unfortunately, you need a neutrino detector, and currently, those are like the size of a football field, it's gonna hafta stay on the backburner for a while.


Ive never seen a "mystical phenomenon" that had enough credibility to warrant an explanation.

_____________________________

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RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:28:13 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I see no reason the brain cannot operate on a quantum level, it would explain all sort of mystical phenomena- unfortunately, you need a neutrino detector, and currently, those are like the size of a football field, it's gonna hafta stay on the backburner for a while.
It's DMT, man.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/dmt.html

All you right-wing fuckers are breaking the law by having DMT in your (pasty-white, slug-like) bodies. Do the right thing and turn yourselves in.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:35:10 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Ive never seen a "mystical phenomenon" that had enough credibility to warrant an explanation.
"Paranormal" then - you never "felt" somebody watching at you? It could be a very useful trait from an evolutionary standpoint.

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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/31/2011 10:36:11 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I see no reason the brain cannot operate on a quantum level, it would explain all sort of mystical phenomena- unfortunately, you need a neutrino detector, and currently, those are like the size of a football field, it's gonna hafta stay on the backburner for a while.
It's DMT, man.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/dmt.html

All you right-wing fuckers are breaking the law by having DMT in your (pasty-white, slug-like) bodies. Do the right thing and turn yourselves in.
All the really good drugs are already in your brain baby.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 200
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