quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Arguing that the universe doesnt exist unless there is a consciousness to observe it fits nicely with your creationist views, so at least you are consistently illogical

Not just creationists views...it fits quite nicely with spontaneous creation views as well. In fact it fits all views that I can see. All the theories that I know of start from nothing to everything spontaneously. It is the before …trigger and mechanism that is in question.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

And you know this how?

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I've banged a couple big girls.

Wait........is that was this thread is about?

Origins

I speak in two

sometimes    one grows from many
sometimes    many splits from one

two    the birth of deathly life
two    the leaving off

birth    the union of all makes and kills
leaving off    strips and is stripped

when deathly life divides itself
exchanges never cease

sometimes    through Love everything grows into one
sometimes    through Hate everyone splits into two

--------------

Fire and Water and Earth and the unfilled measure of Air

Hate Hated twice by the roots equals them
Love that's in them becomes their friend by the length and width

mind, look at her
don't sit there eyes astounded

born in their bodies
men worship her

she makes them think of desire
doing what joins them in peace and friendship

so they call her JOYOUS JOINER
Gethosyne           Aphrodite

no one alive has seen her
because she swirls in their eyes

all the roots are equal
the same in birth and age

ruling with different honor
each according to their nature
--------------

Excerpts from Empedocles, From Nature
c. 800 B.C.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

So you know....what was before the big bang

You know what triggered the big bang

You know how the big bang worked

You know for a fact there was no consciousness before or during the big bang?

You know the origin and progression of life and consciousness in all the infinite universe?

You should write a book…wow… some physics class you got there.

Butch

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I know what the theories are, and can actually logically connect them

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

As far as the near death experiences...

You'll excuse me for observing that when you encounter repeated evidence of consciousness under carefully monitored conditions when the brain is not functioning, continuing to insist that consciousness depends on brain function rings a bit hollow.

K.

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repeated evidence of consciousness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

As far as the near death experiences...

You'll excuse me for observing that when you encounter repeated evidence of consciousness under carefully monitored conditions when the brain is not functioning, continuing to insist that consciousness depends on brain function rings a bit hollow.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I would agree...what is that repeated evidence?

No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain. ~Greyson B. "Incidence and correlates of near-death experiences in a cardiac care unit." Gen Hosp Psychiatry 2003;25:269-276.

The data suggest that the NDE arises during unconsciousness. This is a surprising conclusion, because when the brain is so dysfunctional that the patient is deeply comatose, the cerebral structures, which underpin subjective experience and memory, must be severely impaired. Complex experiences such as are reported in the NDE should not arise or be retained in memory. Such patients would be expected to have no subjective experience ~Parnia S, Waller DG, Yeates R, Fenwick P. "A qualitative and quantitative study of the incidence, features and aetiology of near death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors." Resuscitation 2001;48:149-156.

Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients’ medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE... How could a clear consciousness outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? ~van Lommel P, van Wees R, Meyers V, Elfferich, I. "Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prosepctive study in the Netherlands." Lancet 2001;358:2039-2045.

K.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

lol... You have stated it better than me in all the posts I've written.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

I would agree...what is that repeated evidence?

No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain. ~Greyson B. "Incidence and correlates of near-death experiences in a cardiac care unit." Gen Hosp Psychiatry 2003;25:269-276.

The data suggest that the NDE arises during unconsciousness. This is a surprising conclusion, because when the brain is so dysfunctional that the patient is deeply comatose, the cerebral structures, which underpin subjective experience and memory, must be severely impaired. Complex experiences such as are reported in the NDE should not arise or be retained in memory. Such patients would be expected to have no subjective experience ~Parnia S, Waller DG, Yeates R, Fenwick P. "A qualitative and quantitative study of the incidence, features and aetiology of near death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors." Resuscitation 2001;48:149-156.

Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients’ medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE... How could a clear consciousness outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? ~van Lommel P, van Wees R, Meyers V, Elfferich, I. "Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prosepctive study in the Netherlands." Lancet 2001;358:2039-2045.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

I don't think enough is known about the brain to call NDEs during a flat EEG evidence, Dig a corpse up after six months and he tells the same story, then I'll believe it.

Well we know at least enough about the brain to know that a response like that isn't evidence of one.

K.