Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Parallel Universes - BBC science


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Parallel Universes - BBC science Page: <<   < prev  6 7 [8] 9 10   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/29/2011 5:00:50 PM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Let us both think on it for awhile without prejudice. ..but tell me…when you die does the universe die with you?

no, I die and everyone and everything continues as it was,my parents and partner and friends are upset,lawyers make some money but the sun rises and sets and I am cremated and turned into a small urn full of ashes. As for the universe? It would a little arrogent to imagine that it gives a damn


But how will you know this is will be true. You will not be around to observe it...you are using faith in your beliefs. When you die the universe will cease to exist... The birth and death of stars...the transformation of your material body...all...will not have happened as far as you are concerned and if all consciousness ceases to exist then the universe will be right back where it started before creation.

Butch

I have known some people who have died and the universe did not die with them. are you saying that every individual human has their own personal universe? When I die the universe will cease to exist? Shit, I had better look after myself a little better

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/29/2011 5:01:47 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Consciousness is how you rationalise your memories and to that end they are not totally different. You read what I write and it becomes a memory from that you decide what to write in reply based on your ego and ideas which in turn are based on your experience of other memories and related thoughts.

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/29/2011 5:13:39 PM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Consciousness is how you rationalise your memories and to that end they are not totally different. You read what I write and it becomes a memory from that you decide what to write in reply based on your ego and ideas which in turn are based on your experience of other memories and related thoughts.

hmmmm,not sure about that. I remember what you write but it does not change the fact that I am conscious,your words may change my perception but I am still me and conscious

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/29/2011 5:39:13 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		What are your feelings of consciousness based upon how do you know you are conscious? Such thoughts can only be based upon an imagination of what it is like not to exist or the experience of existing.

People also think of memories as instances in time but since the brain is creating them continuously in real-time they are a constant stream punctuated only by sleep and even when sleeping you are creating them through imagination (sub-consciously). Your sense of awareness is just your short term memory stream and certain things being chosen sub-consciously to remain as permanent memories. You have no absolute control, something else governs what you choose to remember. If we had the kind of consciousness that people think it is then we could remember everything we experience or choose to wipe out anything. Since there is a subconscious element which seems to have the same read write privileges we can't say we have true awareness of the world around us or therefore true consciousness. Our ideas of what consciousness is may also simply be what we've imagined it to be or dreamt up along the way, depends what input our sub-conscious is having into what we think is real.

If consciousness is simply being aware then we aren't really conscious because we are equally aware of dreams that bare no relation to what we perceive to be the real world.

Actually having said all that, I don't remember my dreams.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/29/2011 5:59:28 PM >

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/29/2011 7:32:34 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I had better look after myself a little better


Yes you had...but think...if there were no consciousness anywhere in the universe...it would cease to exist...there would be nothingness again...just like before creation. To me it is simple... consciousness is essential for the physical universe... it cannot exist without it... And if it did who or what would know?

For all we know the universe could be static and consciousness is what expanded from the big bang.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/29/2011 7:33:22 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/29/2011 9:49:41 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

consciousness is by no means "non-physical".

Well I don't know of anyone who can walk me into a lab, show me -- directly or by the use of any means or device -- a "consciousness," specify it's location in space, and take measurements of it's mass and energy. To the best of my knowledge, science hasn't even any idea why there would be such a thing. It couldn't have been predicted. It doesn't appear to be necessary. It has no explanatory value. And I can't imagine how it would even be possible to rigorously prove that it exists. In fact, all we really have to support such a notion is personal testimony...

And frankly, I think some people are lying.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/29/2011 10:34:04 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 12:53:32 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

consciousness is by no means "non-physical".

Well I don't know of anyone who can walk me into a lab, show me -- directly or by the use of any means or device -- a "consciousness," specify it's location in space, and take measurements of it's mass and energy. To the best of my knowledge, science hasn't even any idea why there would be such a thing. It couldn't have been predicted. It doesn't appear to be necessary. It has no explanatory value. And I can't imagine how it would even be possible to rigorously prove that it exists. In fact, all we really have to support such a notion is personal testimony...

And frankly, I think some people are lying.

K.




They can quite easily walk you in a room and stop your consciousness using any number of methods to interfere with your physical processes.

And to FC's discussion, people who cannot form memories are still quite conscious.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 2:41:09 AM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
Joined: 10/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I had better look after myself a little better


Yes you had...but think...if there were no consciousness anywhere in the universe...it would cease to exist...there would be nothingness again...just like before creation. To me it is simple... consciousness is essential for the physical universe... it cannot exist without it... And if it did who or what would know?

For all we know the universe could be static and consciousness is what expanded from the big bang.

Butch

this is getting ridiculous,I have tried to play nice but that is one of the more stupid and arrogant statements I have heard in a long time. Are you really trying to tell me that if you and me and everyone else were not conscious then everything we see around us would cease to exist? All this stuff around us,on earth,in the galaxy,in the universe was here a very long time before we were conscious of it and it will be here a hell of a long time after we stop being conscious of it. Who the hell put this puny little species,us that is, in charge of the whole universe. Hate to burst your bubble but we really aren't that important

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 3:40:12 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

If consciousness is simply being aware then we aren't really conscious because we are equally aware of dreams that bare no relation to what we perceive to be the real world.



I dreamt that I got banged last night.

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 4:23:07 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I dreamt that I got banged last night.

Are you challenging his claim or affirming it?

K.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 5:01:51 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

They can quite easily walk you in a room and stop your consciousness using any number of methods to interfere with your physical processes.

However, that does not address the issue. Even if consciousness arises from purely physical processes, it is not in itself something physical.

Add to that, the accumulating number of cases of people observed under medical conditions who report having been conscious during periods of extended cardiac arrest while their brain function was flatlined, and who are able to describe things they observed during that time which they would not have been able to see even if they had been wide awake with their eyes open, strongly suggests that there is something seriously wrong about our current reductionistic notions of consciousness.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/30/2011 5:19:31 AM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 5:13:28 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I dreamt that I got banged last night.

Are you challenging his claim or affirming it?

K.


Neither.  Just wishing I could banged. 

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 6:23:42 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not just talking about this puny little species...I'm talking about all puny little species...anywhere in the universe. The exact time in space that consciousness is created then so will the physical universe.

Just say consciousness is never created…say there is nothing to observe it…then explain how to me the physical universe can exist. You can’t imagine or describe it in your minds eye because without consciousness there is no mind eye to imagine with…and no other creature to imagine it.

A universe without anything to observe it is in the same state as before the so called big band.

But hey… I am just expressing my ideas of the universe… and you yours… I am not trying to convince you of anything.

The concept of spontaneous creation is fantastic but supported by the best minds we have so nothing I am proposing is beyond possibility. If fact everything and every thought, including yours, is a possibility until we can prove otherwise.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/30/2011 6:26:19 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 8:11:39 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

They can quite easily walk you in a room and stop your consciousness using any number of methods to interfere with your physical processes.

However, that does not address the issue. Even if consciousness arises from purely physical processes, it is not in itself something physical.

Add to that, the accumulating number of cases of people observed under medical conditions who report having been conscious during periods of extended cardiac arrest while their brain function was flatlined, and who are able to describe things they observed during that time which they would not have been able to see even if they had been wide awake with their eyes open, strongly suggests that there is something seriously wrong about our current reductionistic notions of consciousness.

K.




Your original statement was that consciousness was "non-physical", implying no physical aspect to it, which is obviously incorrect. If you want to to argue for something metaphysical than make some suggestions.

As far as the near death experiences, its the same thing as influencing water...it has never been replicated in controlled conditions.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 8:18:26 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm not just talking about this puny little species...I'm talking about all puny little species...anywhere in the universe. The exact time in space that consciousness is created then so will the physical universe.

Just say consciousness is never created…say there is nothing to observe it…then explain how to me the physical universe can exist. You can’t imagine or describe it in your minds eye because without consciousness there is no mind eye to imagine with…and no other creature to imagine it.

A universe without anything to observe it is in the same state as before the so called big band.

But hey… I am just expressing my ideas of the universe… and you yours… I am not trying to convince you of anything.

The concept of spontaneous creation is fantastic but supported by the best minds we have so nothing I am proposing is beyond possibility. If fact everything and every thought, including yours, is a possibility until we can prove otherwise.

Butch


Arguing that the universe doesnt exist unless there is a consciousness to observe it fits nicely with your creationist views, so at least you are consistently illogical.

It implies that consciousness either predates the universe or was created the instant the universe was, a time when there could be no physical entity that could be conscious, the physics doesnt allow it. Therefore consciousness is "non-physical", which in turn is incorrect because we can shut it down by interefering with physical processes.

So youre tautologically back to consciousness=god, and weve been there done that.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 10:49:57 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Honestly, the mind just fucking boggles. Even viewed purely as an epiphenomenon or emergent property of complex biological systems, consciousness is still not something physical.


But you are not viewing it from an epiphenomenon view are you? Not if you post a link to Peter Russell’s lecture and you stand by that. Why don’t you defend what Russell says instead of playing dodge ball with consciousness of the mind? Let me give you a chance to defend it. Your boy says grandly that the paradigm of scientific materialism is being replaced by a new paradigm of consciousness. Not satisfied with a modest new paradigm. Oh no. A metaparadigm, yet! Space, time and matter are not the fundamental qualities of the cosmos; consciousness is. How does he go about this? He reaches back and grabs the coat tails of Immanuel Kant, takes his attempt to reconcile empiricism and reason and stretches it into the notion that consciousness is fundamental cosmic quality we cannot experience directly. We can only experience the variations in the consciousness field as images in the mind. Matter results from disturbances in the cosmic consciousness. So all material things are illusions of cosmic consciousness. Because we with our limited conscious minds cannot experience universals or absolutes but only the particulars which we construct with our minds. So, who you gonna believe? Peter Russell or your lying eyes?

Then he plays this neat little trick. Gets you looking at his left hand while he steals your wallet with his right hand, metaphorically speaking of course. Consciousness is undeniable in man. It is apparent in dogs and all other living forms down the scale of complexity. Even the amoeba! (Give me a break) Having done that with the left hand to much applause he then proceeds with the right hand to run down the scale of matter from most complex to more simple. Yanno, crystals, molecules, atoms, subatomic particles. And here is where he steals your wallet: They all have consciousness – some sort of “interiority” at the quantum level – some protomind, some vaguest glimmer of an interior world there. Consciousness is the quality of every thing and “thingness” is what the mind makes of it.

Now here is the most amusing part: how can this new metaparadigm be tested? By experiments of course. Experiments? Yes, experiments of the mind. But not by scientists. Oh no. They are stuck in the wrong paradigm. The mind experiments are being conducted by mystics through meditation which allows them to shake off the false images created by the mind. And what do they report finding? Light! Behold, pure cosmic consciousness, the fundamental value of all, is manifested by Light, which until the mystics showed the way, poor confused scientists had measured as the visible frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum of energy. Wrong paradigm. And what is this light that is in all of us and in all the cosmos? It is God. The divinity in all of us. Do I have that about right? Is that the immaterial cosmic consciousness which gives rise to freight trains and airplanes and rocket to the moon in our minds? Is that what you are saying? Science (not God) is dead. We have been laboring in the wrong vineyard. Never mind that western civilization has done some wondrous things with it. Wrong. Dead. God lives as cosmic consciousness which just is, always has been. No need for a creation. Slick.

Hey, you posted the link. Why don’t you own it and defend it? Prove it or stfu.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 1:14:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

because we can shut it down by interefering with physical processes.


willbeur I understand what you are thinking as well...but what, as my link explained, if our brains just allow us to tap into consciousness that already exists.. Yes it does sound fantastic but still just as possible as your contention.

It’s a shame we will not be alive to know the answers…I think eventually we will have a better idea even if we may never, in the limited time for our species, know the absolute truth.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 1:20:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Arguing that the universe doesnt exist unless there is a consciousness to observe it fits nicely with your creationist views, so at least you are consistently illogical



Not just creationists views...it fits quite nicely with spontaneous creation views as well. In fact it fits all views that I can see. All the theories that I know of start from nothing to everything spontaneously. It is the before …trigger and mechanism that is in question.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 1:23:01 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Since someone has spoken out against gedanken experiements.....

Let us put this to a proof, bring a notebook to a funeral home, walk up and ask a corpse, what exists?  write down the answers, and we will compare notes.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Paralle... - 5/30/2011 1:25:17 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		lol... You have stated it better than me in all the posts I've written.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 160
Page:   <<   < prev  6 7 [8] 9 10   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Before the Big Bang: looking back in time - Parallel Universes - BBC science Page: <<   < prev  6 7 [8] 9 10   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094