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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 8:40:51 AM   
candleTC


Posts: 148
Joined: 5/8/2006
From: Springfield, Il
Status: offline 		This is a topic that is baffling to me.  I can NOT for the life of me figure out why in the world someone would want to hide who they are.... We ( hate to spring this on ya, folks, so you may want to sit ) *are* people of a wide variety of kink, but more importantly, we are people that really enjoy our "partners", whether they be Dom, Master, sub or slave.  We enjoy our lifestyle and , truth be told, a lot of our relationships are far more "normal" than society would give us credit for, not to mention, longer lasting, happier and healthier.. ( has no statistics to back this up, yet. Give a girl some time tho ( wink ) )
i have no problems, wearing my collar *everywhere*.  It's a permanent fixture around my neck, never to be removed by my own hands.  When collared i made a life long commitment, or at least that's what it's supposed to be, and i have no problems with anyone who asks, sharing that with them.  i, naturally, heal when in public, keeping my eyes lowered and avoiding eye contact.  i call Master "Master" in public, very rarely in a whisper, but in normal talking tone.  Master has BDSM emblem tattoo'ed on His left forearm.  i, will have one on my foot.  i, have been in public places with people that i work for, and actually knelt before a Mistress to ask if i could touch her slave long enough to put the tag back in her shirt.  On the occassion, that i am asked, i will explain.  i make no quams about who i am, to * no one *.  
i walk down the street everyday and see couples holding hands, i hear the everyday barkings of the activists, whether it be gay rights, pro-choice or whatever, i watch the christians praying over thier meals in my favorite restaurant... this doesn't offend me, however, has anyone stopped to think that it might???? Master and i are firm believers in being true to oneself.  Being who you are at all costs... standing true for what You believe and carrying yourself in that manner.  It's tough riding the fence and trying to live both a vanilla and an alternative lifestyle, i have tried.  Quite frankly, i was miserable.  Just because our public displays of affection are different than Mary and Jim's  next door, doesn't make us offensive.  Just Different :)

_____________________________

"On my knees, i think clearer"

~Thoughts are like arrows: once released, they strike their mark. Guard them well or one day you may be your own victim. - Navajo Proverb~

(in reply to allspicey)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 9:14:38 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with the OP on this one. I've lived on the fringes of society for most of my life. Things go on every day in the flesh-world that I don't "consent" to -- and they are often things that will impact my life a LOT more than having some girl ask me a question using 3rd person speech, or having to look at a guy in a muscle t and a collar being loaded down with packages at the mall while his "lady" shops without a care in the world. Sure, people will notice and talk, but if I don't care about their opinions, whether they like or don't like and approve or don't approve of what I do is less than relevant.

Before anyone talks about the impact on the poor, helpless human saplings, I've raised 4 saplings. They've been raised exposed to D/s, poly, alternative spirituality, transgenders, homosexuality... you name it, they're pretty well versed in it and have see how it works firsthand -- and they were still -small- saplings when they started asking questions... which we answered in terminology appropriate to their age/understanding, but with complete honesty, expanding our answers as they asked more relevant questions. Our oldest male sapling is getting married this year. He is in his early 20s, and he and his bride-to-be have chosen to wait on sex until they get married because it is important to HER, and our son doesn't feel any compelling need to get his rocks off just to prove he can. Our oldest female sapling has chosen Christianity as her spiritual path. She was exposed to many, and Christianity is what makes her feel close to the Divine. Our younger female sapling has informed us that she is bi-sexual and does not want to be bound to a traditional marriage relationship. Our youngest male sapling has no interest in anything besides getting into MIT on a scholarship. Go figure. All of our saplings have integrity, and despite living constantly exposed to alternative-lifestyle elements, have found their own place as -productive- and -responsible- adult or near-adult citizens.

People can say whatever they want about how it is wrong to expose what we are to people who haven't consented, but if I am a regular person at the theatre with my lover, and I end up necking with him/her in the seat, that doesn't mean that I'm inviting everyone around me to participate. In the same way, what we do or don't do as a couple, or as a collective, or as a D/s group is between the people who are doing it. If someone in the outside world doesn't want to see it, they're -welcome- to look the other way and not butt their noses into our business. We look the other way all the time to shut out the views of the homeless, the scammers, and the political BSers. Unless I ask for an opinion, I probably don't need to hear the ones being involuntarily offered (gee, without my consent.. go figure.)

LZ

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to allspicey)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 9:17:43 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		I can respect that it is about sexuality for you, but it is also important to remember that D/s isn't about sexuality for everyone. It has nothing to do with sex in our collective. We make that clear from the get-go. I can see not wanting to have sex in the middle of the mall, but that doesn't mean that having my servants wear their uniforms (tasteful robes, somewhat like sari) and walk to my right and 3 paces back should be barred from the mall, too, just because someone -else's- version of D/s includes or revolves around sex.

LZ


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Old fuddy-duddy here....
 
D/s is about sexuality and how I express intimacy and I don't get anything out of pushimg my sexuality into the public's face.  Rather than an obvious collar, I'd prefer the girl wore a more subtle equivalent that may get some wondering but not draw undue attention.  At the local supermarket, part of the women's Winter uniform includes a kind of narrow scarf that always grabs my attention, even though it's not about D/s.  I love subtle - sue me!  lol
 
There are still lotsa ways to dominate in public without the lifestyle ignorant ever knowing and I enjoy that, too - it's just our little secret....  I don't mind if others wanna show who they are; it's just not for me.
 
Focus.


< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 5/13/2006 9:19:41 AM >

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 9:47:43 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
If someone in the outside world doesn't want to see it, they're -welcome- to look the other way and not butt their noses into our business. LZ


Why anyone would think that they have a right to undertake an "action" and not also concede that those who directly bear witness to or are recipients of that action are not as equally entitled to their "reaction" is beyond me. What you want to do within your privacy is your business, what you do in a public setting becomes the business of everyone involved and you can have no expectation of privacy. If Joe Blow decides he is going to walk through the airport picking his nose and eating his boogers he is free to do so...but he better expect that people will react to that action. If LordDomlyDom wishes to lead his slave around by her nipples then he had better expect that there will be a reaction to that action. By taking your "actions" into a public setting you have already given consent to the "reactions" of others. While LordDomlyDom may feel completely comfortable in his action and entirely within his rights....I have the same right to tell him that I think he looks like a pompous ass when he chooses to exercise his "rights" within a proximity that I have to be confronted by them.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 9:50:41 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allspicey

In my opinion we are often overly consciencious about what we do in public.

spicey


I agree.

I think most of our desire to not include others in our scenes is really based on our fears of something bad happening to us.

I think if one applies the same principles of politeness from vanilla life to being "in-scene in public" you can rarely go wrong. Add into that an awareness of the laws and the only people bothered by you will be those looking to be bothered by someone.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to allspicey)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:39:41 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		It is a matter of context.

If I lead a girl out of my flat and down the road here and she was dressed like we where going to a rocky horror show, nobody would so much as bat an eye-lid. If I did the same thing in some tiny sussex villiage I'd possibly get lynched by the blue-rinse brigade of the womens institute!

If I want to lead her around wearing nothing but nipple clamps and cane her in public there are a number of fine clubs around London to choose from where I can do so with no problem and I'm not about to do that in the middle of Tottenham court road!

A little common sense and as Tammy mentions, a little politeness...

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 5/13/2006 10:40:13 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:46:54 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		I agree. People are entitled to their reactions. However, if they don't like it, they aren't compelled to keep looking. People are completely welcome to share their opinions. That's what free speech is all about. At the same time, they're welcome to express their opinion... as long as they understand that expressing their opinion doesn't mean that I have to stop what I'm doing.

I don't think that, within respect for the bounds of legality, I should have to limit what I say, do, wear, display as a PDA, or otherwise adjust my actions because someone else finds it "uncomfortable". I know that Joe Blow and his wife, kissing on the subway, aren't going to stop because it nauseates the lesbian feminist sitting across the aisle from them... My colleage at the office isn't going to stop displaying her pictures of her and her husband kissing and cuddling on the beach at Galveston and kissing at their wedding just because she shares an office with a same-gender-affectionate female (though I am not allowed to display pictures of my mate and I holding hands or pictures of our commitment ceremony at my desk), so why is it expected that who have made other life choices should have to hide, just because they're expressing a way of life that is in the smaller percentage pool for the nation?

LZ

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:47:06 AM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I think most of our desire to not include others in our scenes is really based on our fears of something bad happening to us.



That can be a problem for some of us.  We can be out and run into people she has to interact with while she is running the business.  Some of these are people she has to negotiate with and no one can afford even one of them looking at her in a different way, especially if it makes her look weak in their eyes. 

It would be too big of a gamble to consider

K

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:57:17 AM   
cheekysmile


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel


giggles and rembers the hand print on my back side when we went shopping for food, the echo was amazing and ohh my butt stang..... all in all it was the funnyiest moment i had experienced as Your submissive Ma'am......and not one member of the public said a word....joe public are not stupid they know more than we think they do.
 
ok yes i deserved the swat......giggles......id do it again too LOL

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:58:03 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse


If I want to lead her around wearing nothing but nipple clamps and cane her in public there are a number of fine clubs around London to choose from where I can do so with no problem and I'm not about to do that in the middle of Tottenham court road!



Here in the States, matters like this are covered legally, the first by public nudity laws, and the latter by laws about assault and battery... Breaking the law is rarely wise (though sometimes necessary when a law is unjust (think civil disobedience), but is certainly not something to do just on a whim, if one values one's freedom and reputation.

While it is certainly of questionable taste (and perhaps legality) to cane a girl down Tottenham Ct. Rd., naked and in nipple clamps, would the same level of objection follow for having her wear her collar with a nice tweed business suit and heels to a Sunday brunch? From my perspective, this shouldn't be any more of an issue than whether or not I wear my "Mother's Pin" brooch to Sunday Brunch--or whether I attend Sunday Brunch with my female mate or with both my female and male mates as a family with our saplings (as long as the saplings are beyond the screaming and throwing food stage... I still think that seedlings like that shouldn't be allowed to dine out in any restaurant that doesn't have "Family" in its name).

LZ

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:02:54 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I think the fears people show in the 'life style' is totally unfounded, certainly here in Europe. Women sunbath topless in Hyde Park, London. I've seen people fucking in Vondel Park in Amsterdam and when I owned a house in France my student neighbour used to sunbathe nude. That was more of a problem for me and my friend who tried our hardest not to rubber neck without much success (she was gorgeous). Wearing atire that puts someone in the 'life style' is small beer. The woman in my local fetish shop wants conservative laws because she thinks it would spice up the 'life style' and increase her sales.

The average person doesn't care how other people live and the police are only concerned about disrturbances of the peace. If there is no disturbance, they don't really care. To care is only to make work for themselves and most courts won't find anyone guilty if there has been no disturbance.

(in reply to allspicey)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:06:12 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

That can be a problem for some of us.  We can be out and run into people she has to interact with while she is running the business.  Some of these are people she has to negotiate with and no one can afford even one of them looking at her in a different way, especially if it makes her look weak in their eyes. 

It would be too big of a gamble to consider

K



This kind of situation comes down to a personal decision, rather than a societally-imposed repression. Any of us can decide, at any given time, to practice personal discretion for our own reasons.

It seems to me that the question at hand is more about the comments within the community that seem to imply that, because the larger percentage of the population do not practice the same behaviors that we choose to, that we should require ourselves to restrict public display of those behaviors, in order to "spare" the poor innocent non-practitioners from having to be "exposed" to our freakishness (or, heaven forbid, explain it to their offspring) or the implication that somehow, my interactions with my servants is "forcing" something on the innocent public. For me, the way that I interact with my servants and the requirements I make of them is not imposing on the general public in any greater measure than a married couple kissing next to a fountain in the mall is "forcing" me to be "involved" in their marriage or (in the case of speech modifications) a French-speaking customer requesting service of a non-French-speaking clerk is "forcing" her to become French.

LZ

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to PlayfulOne)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:06:25 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
would the same level of objection follow for having her wear her collar with a nice tweed business suit and heels to a Sunday brunch?


Nope, certainly not over here. But as I say, it is a matter of context and frankly I don't see ANY context where a girls collar would be an issue unless some pushy asshole is trying to MAKE it into an issue... in which case, if it is my girl and my collar, they will find they are not the only one who can be pushy


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:08:37 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think the fears people show in the 'life style' is totally unfounded, certainly here in Europe. Women sunbath topless in Hyde Park, London. I've seen people fucking in Vondel Park in Amsterdam and when I owned a house in France my student neighbour used to sunbathe nude. That was more of a problem for me and my friend who tried our hardest not to rubber neck without much success (she was gorgeous). Wearing atire that puts someone in the 'life style' is small beer. The woman in my local fetish shop wants conservative laws because she thinks it would spice up the 'life style' and increase her sales.

The average person doesn't care how other people live and the police are only concerned about disrturbances of the peace. If there is no disturbance, they don't really care. To care is only to make work for themselves and most courts won't find anyone guilty if there has been no disturbance.


Put the flags out meaty... you finaly posted something which I compleatly agree with


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:11:36 AM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		*nodding* I've always thought I was better suited to European life than American life. America still holds tight to many of its Calvinist and Puritanical roots, and seems comfortable with them.

I've always said that if someone is comfortable with the choices they've made, I see no reason to force them to change, and frankly, most of the US is pretty comfortable with the conservative way of life here. Most of the time, I figure that it's my problem, so I should be the one to move... but not until my saplings are out of the training orchard and into their own forest.

LZ

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:19:34 AM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		LZ,

I have no problems with how you wish to conduct yourself.  I firmly believe we all must walk our own path and make choices based on the space we are in. 

What I have probelms with, and it has been circling around many topics on the boards, are the people on the polar opposite sides of an issue who think everything must be as they see it.

K

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 1:26:16 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		I think it depends on how (and how honestly) you answer the question "What is my motivation for overt public displays?". If it is a sincere expression of your comfort and pride in being what you are then you are more justified to tweak the public sensibility. If it is an act of exhibitionism done for your personal titillation then you are engaging non-consenting people in your scene.

Having your slave kneel in a family restaurant qualifies as an abuse of the general public, in my opinion.

To whatever degree you feel justified in confronting the public with your lifestyle, be prepared to face reactions of others without complaining of unfair treatment. They have the right to be staunchly vanilla in public if they so please.

Z.


0

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 2:01:26 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I really don't think it makes a difference.  What if it's both?  How exactly are you going to distinguish between "a sincere expression of pride in being what you are" and "exhibitionism done for your personal titillation"?  Why isn't exhibitionism "sincere"?

Great av, by the way. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

If it is a sincere expression of your comfort and pride in being what you are then you are more justified to tweak the public sensibility. If it is an act of exhibitionism done for your personal titillation then you are engaging non-consenting people in your scene.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/13/2006 2:02:39 PM >

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 2:28:22 PM   
MstrTiger


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/14/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
I think the law is there to be used as a guide to what is publicly acceptable and providing you are keeping within that people cant complain with any real justification even though a few of them might try. I think that providing you can cope with being insulted by people for wearing what you choose or acting like you are then you should go for it though if people cant cope with that sort of criticism they will just end up upsetting themselves.

(in reply to allspicey)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 2:48:26 PM   
subtlesubie


Posts: 138
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		If you insist on minimizing or rejecting the propriety argument, the next most compelling reason to keep your bdsm in private where it belongs is that to others not in the scene, and even to some that are, it looks idiotic.  (Collars and other inconspicuous, largely main-streamed apparel, excepted.)  A person kneeling in front of another in a grocery store gets more rolled eyes from passer-bys then if they had their underwear on outside of their pants.  Haven't you seen the SAVAGE ridicule levelled against lifestylers by the Kids in the Hall?  BDSMers, like white trash, remain outside of the politically correct protective umbrella.  They garner absolutely no public sympathy or respect.  Engaging in activities in public adds to the stereotype of lifestylers being one track dullards.      

What may be hot and fun for you in private, probably makes you look like a retard in public.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 40
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