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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:00:07 PM

MistressLorelei

Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

Despite the deja vu this thread does bring about, to me there is a difference in the previous, recent similar thread. Previously we were discussing whether a person walking another person on a leash in a mall is grounds for public interference... and I still find this behavior inappropriate. However, if one person wants to walk around wearing just about anything that is not obscene/illegal (private parts exposed or wearing messages which call for violence in the general public), I think anyone has the right to do so. The public also has a right to point, laugh and think you are ridiculous when you do it.

I have gone out on numerous occasions with a submissive in a chain collar with a lock. We got a few stares, and at restaurants, our table seemed to get more service than others, but I never felt any negativity expressed by anyone, nor did I feel like we were harming our environment. I would have felt differently had I been walking him, but a collar is worn by an individual and displays no one violating the rights/degrading of another It appears that a sub in a collar has a unique way to accessorize, not that he is being degraded/treated inhumanely by another.

I see all kinds of attrocious things in public, and on any given day think 'what were they thinking?'... but, hideous make-up, bad clothes, silly hair styles, smelly perfume violate only opinions of taste... children are not learning it's okay to degrade others and we (as a responsible public) are not condoning it.

So, to answer the question at hand... I think that when exerting one person's rights does not suppress the rights of others and the action/presence is not illegal... it violates no one.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 61

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 10:04:29 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

You know, whenever this topic comes up (and it comes up all the time in kink circles) I go back to basics. I guess I'm an old fashioned Man -- I think of what is polite. I see nothing remotely impolite in a person wearing a "talisman" be it a wedding ring, a cross and/or a collar. I think any term of endearment may be shared between lovers, be it "Master" or "honeybee" or (one I heard from a girl friend the other day to her lover) "mangopuss" (OK, that might be a bit much -- and in, dare I say, poor taste.) But sceneing in public is simply rude. And I would hope that no one wants to be rude to others.

As for scene wear, isn't it really about context? If you are going to a Dungeon party and you stop to pump gas, I don't know that you need to put a cloak over the corset. If you are going to church (to use another extreme) I would hope you had the good sense to leave the corset at home. I have taken My slave dressed in a very clearly kinky outfit through Ceasar's Palace on a Saturday night (how else do you get from the room to the limo, for God's sake?). And I was carrying toys that didn't fit nicely into the bag we had -- the canes, and a sjambok. I think I had a flogger clipped to My belt. I didn't think I was imposing our kink on anyone. And you know what? I don't think more than 10 people even noticed.

And finally, something no one else on the thread has touched on: Are you really doing this for your own giggles? I am NOT referring to anyone who has posted above when I say this, so lets avoid the flamethrowers, but I am deeply suspect of people who justify "public play" by wrapping themselves in a cloak of "I must never hide who/what I am" when what is really going on is they get their jollies shocking the poor working families at Denny's. If you live your life in your manacles, so be it. But make sure you aren't putting them on before you go out so as to get mom, dad and the neighbors' all riled up. Or to get yourself off.

--E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 62

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:03:49 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I think the above post illustrates how subjective all this is. One man's "rude" is another man's "tolerable." One man's "polite" is another man's "conformist." I really wonder why this topic gets people bent out of shape. With all the real problems in the world these days, who really gives a fuck whether someone wears a collar or a corset in public?

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 63

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 11:47:02 PM

MistressLorelei

Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I think the above post illustrates how subjective all this is. One man's "rude" is another man's "tolerable." One man's "polite" is another man's "conformist." I really wonder why this topic gets people bent out of shape. With all the real problems in the world these days, who really gives a fuck whether someone wears a collar or a corset in public?

I agree... except that so many of these real problems exist because people do not know how to respect and treat others who live in the world around them. There has to be a starting place I would think. If we show the youth of today how to be responsible, caring, considerate adults of tomorrow and respect one another and the world we all share, perhaps tomorrow can be free of some of the 'real problems' we face today.

< Message edited by MistressLorelei -- 5/13/2006 11:59:45 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 64

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 12:24:53 AM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
... With all the real problems in the world these days, who really gives a fuck whether someone wears a collar or a corset in public?

Because in the real world, people can lose their jobs over their lifestyle choices. People can have their children taken out of their homes because of their lifestyle choices. People can be evicted from their living spaces because of their lifestyle choices. And in some jurisdictions, they can be jailed for their lifestyle choices.

We are all free to dress how we choose, we can wear collars, cuffs and/or fetishwear whenever we want to. We can spank, play with, bind or cuff our partners in public and hope that there are no negative consequences.

But do not delude yourself into thinking that there will never be negative consequences.

A couple of years ago a long time employee was fired from Winn-Dixie because he was a cross-dresser. Not cross dressing at work, but in his private life.

In my own divorce case, per the judge hearing our case, my visitation rights were contingent on my children "not being exposed to your lifestyle. Mr. Wxxxxx. If it EVER comes to my attention that you have exposed your children to this, I will revoke your visitation rights immediately. Is that clear?"

My munch group lost one of our favorite restaurants as a meeting location because one of our members thought it was okay to spank Hys slave in the parking lot in front of a 20 ft long glass window with about 40 or 50 patrons of the restaurant watching.

In 2004, in the United States, the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (http://www.ncsfreedom.org) responded to more than 600 incidents of employement discrimination, child custody cases, arrests, and business closures that were brought about because people openly, and sometimes not so openly, displayed their BDSM lifestyle choices.

You are free to do what you wish, as long as you are willing to accept the responsibility for, and consequences of, your open, public actions.

You are NOT free to do what you wish if it may out _me_ or any other person you are associating with, as being kinky. You do not have my consent to out me, or anyone in my service. You are not free to take away my livelihood, my children or my freedom. I have not given you consent to risk my exposure. THERE is the line you may not cross, where public consent is absolutely necessary.

Wear your kink on your sleeve on _your_ time and your time only. If it risks others, then out of common decency, courtesy and respect for the privacy of others, leave your kink at home.

And by the way, I _am_ "out" now. My children are adults, Family Court can kiss my a$$ about visitation now. I've already lost one job because of my kink, I can always get another. But it is MY decision to make as to who I out myself to and how out I will be with them. In _some_ cases it's fine. But in others it can have devastating consequences. I can make that decision for me, you may not. N'est pas?

That, my friend, is why _I_ give a fuck about who wears a collar or corset or plays in public. Because I have felt the negative consequences of my own actions and the actions of others. Because I understand that none of us lives in a vacuum, our decisions and actions impact others, for good or ill. And I'm not having some self-centered, un-thinking putz get our munch group tossed out of our meeting space again. I'm not letting someone who demands they wear their collar EVERYWHERE put one of our members who has a morals clause in their employment contract at risk of losing their job. I'm not going to have someone lose their children because DomlyDom and slavey_sub{DD} have a rule that means she has to kneel on the floor and eat table scraps from a plate on the floor.

There is a reason we call our private lives _private_. There are times and places where it is absolutely necessary to leave the kink at home. There was a rule back in the day, that the gay leather community really stressed. "Do NOT wear Leather in public before 10:00pm." I asked our resident historian why? He replied: "We called it the 'Don't scare the villagers' rule". Made sense then, similar rules make sense now.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 65

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 12:33:28 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Yeah, I've heard of that "rule," and oldtimers always seem to think it was the greatest principle of the leather universe.

It's just a sign of fear.

Fart proudly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGeoff

There was a rule back in the day, that the gay leather community really stressed. "Do NOT wear Leather in public before 10:00pm." I asked our resident historian why? He replied: "We called it the 'Don't scare the villagers' rule". Made sense then, similar rules make sense now.

(in reply to EvilGeoff)

Post #: 66

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 12:42:50 AM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I think the above post illustrates how subjective all this is. One man's "rude" is another man's "tolerable." One man's "polite" is another man's "conformist." I really wonder why this topic gets people bent out of shape. With all the real problems in the world these days, who really gives a fuck whether someone wears a collar or a corset in public?

I agree... except that so many of these real problems exist because people do not know how to respect and treat others who live in the world around them. There has to be a starting place I would think. If we show the youth of today how to be responsible, caring, considerate adults of tomorrow and respect one another and the world we all share, perhaps tomorrow can be free of some of the 'real problems' we face today.

Very well said, Lorelei!

I don't think anyone is going to be all that shocked over fetish wear, as long as everything is covered that should be covered. I have a friend who wears a stainless steel collar every day of her life, and matching cuffs. She works in a bank and she wears them to work. But they are tasteful and seem, I'm sure, to most people to be jewelry.

In regard to the leashes mentioned on the other thread...the dress code at my children's schools do not allow for chain belts as they can be used as weapons (we have a ridiculously strict dress code), so I have to wonder if the whole incident was related more to something of that nature than to BDSM.

At any rate, with so many in the lifestyle focused on protocols (which had its roots in Emily Post's Book of Etiquette, according to Jack Rinella) and behavior which is polite and well-mannered, it would seem to follow that being polite and well-mannered is not limited to the public or private dungeon. Respect is a word and concept that is bandied about the lifestyle to the point of being a millstone. To apply it only to one's lifestyle choices and nowhere else is rather hypocritical.

If you want to be a beacon to the word at large, represent the lifestyle to the "outside" world, great, more power to you. But endeavor to make it a positive and not a negative.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to MistressLorelei)

Post #: 67

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 1:08:43 AM

Zensee

Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I really don't think it makes a difference. What if it's both? How exactly are you going to distinguish between "a sincere expression of pride in being what you are" and "exhibitionism done for your personal titillation"? Why isn't exhibitionism "sincere"?

Great av, by the way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

If it is a sincere expression of your comfort and pride in being what you are then you are more justified to tweak the public sensibility. If it is an act of exhibitionism done for your personal titillation then you are engaging non-consenting people in your scene.

As we see by this thread there are many degrees and kinds of external judgment that can be brought to bear on any given situation depending on it’s context. This is why I suggest an internal test. It’s not what you do but why you do it.

Is it necessary? If so, why? If you do it to confront, expect confrontation. Are you making a principled stand or just getting your rocks off?

Titillation = sexual stimulation. If it gives you a stiffy or makes you damp doing it in public or you just want to get a rise out of the Vanilla Family in the Taco Time, I don’t think you are justified in being outraged at their outrage. Exhibitionism is a power trip – it doesn’t work unless unconsenting people are recruited.

And I disagree that discretion equals fear.

Thanks re: av – btw. (Understanding av = Avatar.)
Z.

0 0

< Message edited by Zensee -- 5/14/2006 1:09:56 AM >

_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 68

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 2:48:28 AM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Well if you look carefully you will see that I used the word "inappropriate". You say they have the right to "reasonable" forms of PDA. We are in agreement. What me might not be in agreement on is what we perceive to be "inappropriate" or "reasonable". You need to decide that for yourself...and I need to decide that for me. And it's not up to "you" to decide my reaction. I can choose for myself and have as much right to do so if I want to look away and move on or express my distaste to them personally.

Actually it's up to the law to decide that. And since we are not members of law enforcement then in reality the only choice we have is to report it to the authorities or look/walk away. Taking it upon yourself to enforce the law is vigilantism, and that's not an acceptable response.

quote:

Rape is a violent act. Nowhere have I said that anyone has the right to resort to violence EVER. What I did say is that violence in our world today IS a valid possible response that we can and should expect. That doesn't make it right...it just IS.

To address your rape scenario directly I will tell you this, although you are probably aware as I have posted it here before.

I absolutely do not believe you did anything to cause your rape. No matter where you are, who you are, or what you are wearing, no one has the right to rape you. I can certianly understand your sense of self-blame, but in reality I still wouldn't consider anyone quilty in those circumstances except the scum that did that to you.

quote:

I am not sure why the concept of accepting responsiblity for one's own actions is such a difficult one. What I am getting at this point is that this has become personal somehow for you in regards to me. I'm not sure why it is that you seem to be so offended that my views differ from yours....isn't that exactly what you are so passionate about...the right to be different and express it?

This is not personal by any means. It just happens that I don't agree with your view, although I certianly support your right to express this view. I personally feel that this kind of debate helps me grow and understand the world around me better so I enjoy it.

When people espouse the belief that everything is better if people are just quiet, and conform to old, outdated prejudices and beliefs of what is "normal", or the pressures of moral minorities, then nothing changes. There is no room for evolution of society, no growth of tolerance for our human differences. Change needs a catalyst to happen.

I just don't believe that if we are all quiet and leave the collars at home we will be ok. We will not only not gain the freedoms we deserve, but we could lose the ones we have already won. I'm just not apathetic enough to allow that to happen.

Cripes it's almost 3am. I just got home and was curious to see what you had to say. I just hope my response makes sense. LOL

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 69

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 3:11:19 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: allspicey

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: allspicey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

D/s is about sexuality...

...and how I express intimacy ...

Okay, this is the other argument I hear.

Because BDSM isn't about my sex life but about my relationship with my Master, for me, wearing a collar is like someone else wearing a wedding ring.

spicey

Please read the post more carefully before you respond, Focus specifically said " I " . You answered him as if he were trying to make an argument and apply it to everyone. what he said was it didsn't work for "HIM" but if it tripped your triggers have at it.

K

Okay, I'd like to take this piecemeal. First of all, if anyone has taken offense to the way I worded my response, my apologies. It certainly was not meant as a personal attack.

Secondly, Focus first stated "D/s is about sexuality". He then stated that for HIM it is how he expresses intimacy. The first statement is a general one I happen to disagree with. For many, D/s is not about sexuality.

Next point. In my response I clearly stated this is an argument I hear. The implication being that other people have put forth the argument or opinion that D/s is about sexuality. This was not aimed at any one person but rather stating, perhaps poorly, that it is a fairly common opinion or counter argument that I have heard. I then phrased how my D/s life is not about sexuality but about a type of relationship, therefore creating a counter argument to the sexuality issue as not being true for everyone. This does not mean it is not true for many...just not for all or even the majority. Nor does saying that mine D/s is about relationships mean that it is the same for all...or even for the majority.

I put forth these topics to stimulate discussion, not promote a way of life for everyone. These are topics I find stimulating to hear other people's views, opinions and yes, arguments on (debate type, not personal type). I often find a new insight in throwing an old topic out to a new group of people. Sometimes I simply hear the same things reiterated in new forums but it's always interesting. I never take such discussions personally as that rather kills any lively discussion going on and I do love a lively discussion. I also refrain from personal attacks simply because I have no need to defend myself and find it a bit silly to act as if I do. So if something appears to be a little too personal, again, my apologies that the wording did not come across as I intended.

spicey

Ahh, yes, "piecemeal".... Nothing like the ole "slice n dice" to lose all context.... <groan>

I DID NOT MAKE the generalised statement of "D/s is about sexuality".... What I said was "D/s is about sexuality and how I express intimacy... <snip>" *YOU* made it a generalisation when *YOU* deleted my 'I' from the sentence - as PlayfulOne correctly pointed out!

Do I really hafta put a "just expressing my personal opinion here" disclaimer to every post for it not to be assumed I'm speaking on behalf of all and sundry??? So I could've worded it a little better but I wasn't to know my posts were gonna be subjected to microscopic examination and dissected one excruciating word at a time.... But just so we're clear, I speak only for myself when I post.

As for this argument and counter-argument bizzo.... Is there some reason opposing preferences need to be expressed this way? Can't either work for different individuals without it being presented in a combative "us" and "them" scenario? Do you need a majority (that there seems to be) agreeing with your way to feel comfortable with who you are?

And what is this "let's get out there and show the World who we are" mentality that seems to be pervading your otherwise excellent thread? I see teens almost every day wearing collars and cuffs etc but there doesn't seem to be a sub among them. Looks more like they're trying to rebel against society or something and I can't help thinking that if I had my collar-wearing girl walk past them, all we'd get is some pathetic sniggers about the oldies having a mid-life crisis and trying to recapture their youth.... lmao

Don't "toss your toast" over that last comment, I was deliberately being flippant.... lol As I said previously, I'm very comfortable with my choices and it wouldn't make a skerrick of difference if I was in a minority of just *one*.

Focus.

(in reply to allspicey)

Post #: 70

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 4:08:47 AM

Reflectivesoul

Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

And what is this "let's get out there and show the World who we are" mentality that seems to be pervading your otherwise excellent thread? I see teens almost every day wearing collars and cuffs etc but there doesn't seem to be a sub among them. Looks more like they're trying to rebel against society or something and I can't help thinking that if I had my collar-wearing girl walk past them, all we'd get is some pathetic sniggers about the oldies having a mid-life crisis and trying to recapture their youth.... lmao

lol This is sooooo true. I live in a college campus city and I see people of all different "classes" and all different "dress codes" on a daily basis. I dont think its so much the collars anymore that are an issue for normal society as it is the public scening in Denny's. I know several FemDoms that have taken their boys ( in full body latex gear and hoods ) to the gas stations to pump gas just to get off on the fact that everyone around was sneering or gasping or otherwise making some kind of display of disapproval at the "show". These kind of acts are NOT helping the BDSM as a whole and I think thats the meaning of this thread. Not so much which if you want to wear a collar or not, but the full decked out gear being taken into a vanilla world. Its wrong. If you want to do that and go to a club fine, most people are just going to be like ooooo anyhow. I dont think its the clothes so much as it is the wearer and the intention behind the wearing. ( if that makes sense... its late and I have yet to sleep but this was bugging me so I had to come back lol )

I have a really good friend that is a "punk" by definition of his attire. The wild hair, piercings, tatts, and clothing that go along with that, and he wears and shows that on a daily basis, however he doesnt go around pulling stupid stunts and drawing attention to himself. This is his for of personal expression and I encourge that whole heartedly because I know he is one of the few that while looking different from most he's not doing it disrespectfully. Sure some people blatantly look or stare and gawk, maybe giggles or openly laugh, but they cant say he is actually bothering anyone because he's quite reserved and stays mostly to himself. To actually sit and talk with him, pick his brain and spend time with him, he's open, honest, caring, and in general a total sweetheart..... but people shun him and pick on him because of his attire. He accepts that and knows that it is his choice to go out wearing and displaying things that arent of the "norm", but he also remains quiet and to himself when out because he knows that this is his choice not everyone elses and other than them maybe getting an eyefull of colors he doesnt subject them to anything else.

On another note society doesnt just frown on people who wear something that they feel is outlandish. Look around the next time you do go out, see the big girl that comes in the door, watch how many people will immediately sneer or snicker simply because she's not skinny. It doesnt matter if she's in a thousand dollar dress, she's still the topic of public ridicule. Does she subject them to anything besides maybe an eyefull of a big butt or boobs? nope, does it matter in her case though? nope. But just like in cases of people putting themselves on display, by going out and to a place where she knows big isnt the "thing" she also knows that she's going to be watched and people are going to make comments or give looks.

No it doesnt make it right in any of the cases listed or represented but it does happen. People poke fun at others who are different no matter what they look like, its just the people that do look different know generally that they are going to draw a bit more attention than some, and so they act appropriately in the mixes of company. That is not a reaction of fear it is a reaction of self respect. ( with a mindframe of just because I may look different doesnt mean I have to be different!)

I think too many times people from all walks of life that are considered different by society add to that connotation by behaving grossly immature while flaunting their differences. Do I think people should hide who they are, hell no! But I do believe that a little common sense and a lot of thought before hand would make the general public a little more apt to accepting the "out of the norm" folks out there.

I guess for me this encomapsses so much more than a BDSM style topic. There are so many places now where people are openly ridiculed for choices they make in their lives because it goes against the grain. For other examples, inter-racial couples, same sex couples, poly families and households, the straight laced business person with a wildly outlandish mate....... I could go on about this stuff for day..... so I'm going to just leave it with those lol

Its not just the intial looking different that makes people stand out its also the behaviours that they display as well. People can look over someone that looks different after a while, but the ones that act out of hand, those ones not only spread a negative cast one everyone else that can be lumped into the same class but also stick out like a sore thumb and make it that much easier for society to outcast.

Wow I am long winded tonight lol too much caffeine heh. ( and if ya havent guessed yet I'm quite oppinionated too lol )

~RS~

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 71

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 5:47:18 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I have heard, from you and others, the idea that by fighting for and forcing the issue in the vanilla world it will make it easier down the road for the rest of us. While that is certainly a noble intent, it does not take into consideration the wishes of "all" of us. I certainly don't want anyone suffering or bearing scars for a right and privilege that I will never use.

Erin, you know I love you, right? But I know that "I will never" isn't nearly as long as you think it is. (remember the Boogie?) We have the right to peaceful assembly... I MAY never use it, I may never feel the need to protest publicly or petition the government or congress... but you know what? I'm sure glad to know I can if I choose to. I know you and I know that you are not nearly as closed minded as you are currently coming across. If everyone felt the same way then gay people would still be in the closet and blacks would still be unable to marry whites.

Ok, so YOU don't want to be the one to fight the good fight and you don't want anyone else hurt in your stead.. those are noble ideals indeed. But why is that? Is it because when it's all said and done those that stuck to the shadows and clung to the closets can say "I didn't rock the boat"?

quote:

What I am saying is that if you make it your choice to stand on a soapbox...then stand on it all the way through til the end. Do so with an awareness of not only your issue...but how it is that your issue will be perceived and what ALL of the possible ramifications of your actions are. Then accept the responsibility and be accountable for all that stepping up onto that platform encompasses. A very wise man once gave me a sage piece of advice that has served me well, even if it does sound a bit cliche. He said "Don't ever let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash". A bit crude...but oh so wise.

Well, you know me and you know that I accept total responsibility for my actions and my choices. And as far as not writing checks your ass can't cash... luckily for us there have been many that didn't listen to that and because of that women can vote, blacks can vote and gay's have or are getting more and more rights.

quote:

As for scene wear, isn't it really about context? If you are going to a Dungeon party and you stop to pump gas, I don't know that you need to put a cloak over the corset. If you are going to church (to use another extreme) I would hope you had the good sense to leave the corset at home.

Ok, I do understand what you are saying... please keep in mind I am not attacking you I am only using this statement to make a point.

Why is a corset so inappropriate? Like I said before, MOST corsets cover up more skin then a bikini... which, by the way, is NOT deemed inappropriate in most coastal cities. For hundreds of years women wore corsets to church, to the market, to town meetings, to teach school... in fact, there was a time when NOT wearing a corset was considered sleazy. Since that time we have suffered (and I do mean suffered) the puritanical mind sets of government officials. We are finally getting past that as a nation (I know, Bushco is trying to resusitate it).

No, I do not think that humping your partner in public is appropriate, fondling each other is also something that belongs at home. But for pity's sake... lets try to keep from going off the deep end here! If you want to wear cuffs or shackles in public go right ahead and wear them... how different are they from the leather bands I've seen sold at places like Nirvana? I can see not wearing them with a business suit, not because it would be "forcing your kink on some unsuspecting Joe Public", but because it would look fucking stupid. That would be right up there with wearing ten dollar sneakers with a six hundred dollar suit. It's just common sense.

quote:

One man's "rude" is another man's "tolerable." One man's "polite" is another man's "conformist." I really wonder why this topic gets people bent out of shape. With all the real problems in the world these days, who really gives a fuck whether someone wears a collar or a corset in public?

Thank you Lam.

quote:

Because in the real world, people can lose their jobs over their lifestyle choices. People can have their children taken out of their homes because of their lifestyle choices. People can be evicted from their living spaces because of their lifestyle choices. And in some jurisdictions, they can be jailed for their lifestyle choices.

I agree Geoff... that's how it was for the women fighting for the vote and for equal rights, as well as the blacks fighting for their freedoms and the gays fighting for their rights too. I do fully understand that. But I also understand that some things will never change unless it is forced to. I'm not saying that everyone in this "lifestyle" should go shove it down the throats of their neighbors or the government, I'm realistic enough to know that the consequences they face would far outweigh anything they would gain... but how about not condemning the ones that are willing to do just that?

quote:

Respect is a word and concept that is bandied about the lifestyle to the point of being a millstone. To apply it only to one's lifestyle choices and nowhere else is rather hypocritical.

If you want to be a beacon to the word at large, represent the lifestyle to the "outside" world, great, more power to you. But endeavor to make it a positive and not a negative.

I make it a point to show respect for others, I don't carry a flag with the BDSM emblem on it when I go out in public... but I do have it tattooed on my arm and it's on the back of our bike as well. I go into the grocery store and behave like everyone else, well, sometimes I behave better then most there. I understand what you are saying to a point... I respect the intelligence of my fellow man, I am not going to attempt to decieve them in any way. If they ask (and they have) what the emblem means, I'll tell them. But respect is a two way street. I respect the right for someone else to wear what ever they are comfortable wearing and I expect the same in return.

And as nice as it would be to be able to represent the lifestyle in a positive manner to the rest of the world it's only a pipe dream... I try to make a positive impression on others, but seeing as how the world is an unpredictable place no matter how hard we try, there is always going to be some that condemn us.

Jewel

< Message edited by ShiftedJewel -- 5/14/2006 6:02:33 AM >

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 72

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 6:42:01 AM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

Interesting responses so far, I can see that there are some who choose to stick to being somewhat secretive and then again there are those who are not terribly concerned about the reaction. I look at fetishwear, collars, or any other visible expression of the BDSM lifestyle as simply something you are wearing at the time, not some sort of statement. Public scening as, some have brought up, is another subject altogether however and not even in the same category. As for the attire specifically, anyone who knows me, knows that I am not concerned about what Joe Public thinks, pro or con. Why should I? As long as it is not what could be legally deemed immoral, pornograhic or obsene, you have every right to appear as you wish to appear. I don't see this any differently than if I have been out riding all day and am in full leathers and decide to stop and eat at a nice restaurant. I am certain some folks will see me and think it would have been more appropriate if I had stopped at the biker bar down the street and grabbed a sandwich. My thought is if this offends someone in their 3 piece suit or evening gown, I couldn't care less. If I'm hungry and can afford to eat there, I will. I see this no different than if Mr. Spiffy & company decided to stop at the biker bar and grab a beer and a sandwich, I will afford them the same courtesy even though they would also appear to be just as out of place.
Seems way too many people feel it is necessary to somehow defend WIITWD by hiding it and keeping it neatly tucked away, speaking at least with regard to clothing and other outward appearance items. In this public that we speak of, I see all sorts of people dressed in attire I would not be caught dead in, but I will defend their right to do just that to the ends of hell, no matter what my personal opinion of what it looks like is. If me and mine are going to, or coming from a munch and are dressed in lifestyle clothing, I don't see any reason in the world not to feel it is appropriate to stop anywhere we wish. If you choose to wear a collar, cuffs, corset, whatever, in public, go for it. Don't do it for the reaction however, I think that is more self serving and detrimental if done just for shock value. But if it's just what you happen to appear like "that" at the time, don't alter your agenda to protect the general public either. Do be braced for the occasional hard stare or behind your back muttering, but perhaps if they see this type of thing enough times, they may get numb to it and not have any reaction at all. I don't see where this would have a negative impact on the BDSM community at all. If it offends them, them being the public, they already had negative feelings and were prejudgemental anyway, so by not hiding it away will likely not make things worse and perhaps just the exposure to it, will in a little way, make acceptance better.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to allspicey)

Post #: 73

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 7:13:55 AM

allspicey

Posts: 44
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have heard, from you and others, the idea that by fighting for and forcing the issue in the vanilla world it will make it easier down the road for the rest of us. While that is certainly a noble intent, it does not take into consideration the wishes of "all" of us. I certainly don't want anyone suffering or bearing scars for a right and privilege that I will never use. I will never see public displays as being appropriate and to be very honest with you I view them as lacking in class...and I don't confine that to the world of kink, I feel the same way when I see a vanilla couple "expressing themselves" inappropriately in a public setting also.

I will never be gay but I do appreciate and respect those that fought the battles that needed to be fought to give gays and lesbians the freedom of expression they enjoy in so many places today. I will never be transgendered but again, appreciate and respect those that have fought, and continue to fight that battle as well, knowing many of them personally. Everyone here is expressing their own view, certainly, and mine is this...I believe that by "forcing" on John Q Public alternative yet nondestructive ways to live we help future generations become more tolerant of humanity in general and work to reduce the amount of violence that occurs simply from the fear of facing difference. My own sapling (I'm sorry, I love that term, I just had to hijack it) is kink aware, kink friendly and not kink interested. She does, however, get hot under the collar about anyone that thinks they should restrict what is normal and non destructive behaviour for Master and I. She has been encouraged to see displays of human affection in any circumstances (I am not talking sex, I am talking affection, like holding hands, kissing and hugging) as perfectly normal, which it certainly is. It is a bit of a worry when people think such perfectly ordinary displays are offensive. They are simply human and I enjoy them because in many ways these people are allowing me some of the joy they are feeling in life and their relationship. I especially enjoy seeing older couples kiss in public. Not a fetish, simply joy in life and love. I like the way my daughter puts it (so very American, my daughter :) "Mom, I don't want to do what you do and I don't always understand it, but I'd defend to the death your right to do it." Proud of that girl, I am.

spicey

spicey

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 74

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 7:14:09 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Interesting thread to read thru. I think I tend to feel much the same as Jewel and Scooter have expressed. I have no problem with anyone figuring out what I am "up to" I do not run around advertising myself as a Domina, just not my style. I would not care to see a public flogging any more than I care to see a vanilla couple with their tongues down one anothers throats. Personally my views have always been that if you feel the need to do that and in essense, advertise, there may be a bit of insecurity there. I spend most of my time in a large college comunity that is very accepting of alternate lifestyles, go to the PedMall in downtown Iowa City on a summer evening and you can see just about anything. I don't even notice wether or not someone is wearing cuffs, collar or purple spiked hair....unless of course I love that particular shade of purple or admire the cuffs and collar. I think it is just personal preference and unless someone is doing it strictly to be "in my face" and yes that is usually obvious, I guess I don't really care one way or another.

As for D's being strictly sexual, I beg to differ, wait.....DEMAND to differ (laughing here). I am quite certain it is for many men, but for many of the women I know it has nothing at all to do with sex.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 75

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 7:23:00 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Well if you look carefully you will see that I used the word "inappropriate". You say they have the right to "reasonable" forms of PDA. We are in agreement. What me might not be in agreement on is what we perceive to be "inappropriate" or "reasonable". You need to decide that for yourself...and I need to decide that for me. And it's not up to "you" to decide my reaction. I can choose for myself and have as much right to do so if I want to look away and move on or express my distaste to them personally.

Actually it's up to the law to decide that. And since we are not members of law enforcement then in reality the only choice we have is to report it to the authorities or look/walk away. Taking it upon yourself to enforce the law is vigilantism, and that's not an acceptable response.

Cin

Actually I have to disagree. There is absolutely no law that says that I can not tell someone that I think their behavior is inappropriate or tacky. I've actually done this several times in my life when I have encountered parents treating their children poorly in public, or men being abusive to their women in public...or teenagers who thought the "F" word is a good replacement for every adjective in public.

quote:

quote:

Rape is a violent act. Nowhere have I said that anyone has the right to resort to violence EVER. What I did say is that violence in our world today IS a valid possible response that we can and should expect. That doesn't make it right...it just IS.

To address your rape scenario directly I will tell you this, although you are probably aware as I have posted it here before.

I absolutely do not believe you did anything to cause your rape. No matter where you are, who you are, or what you are wearing, no one has the right to rape you. I can certianly understand your sense of self-blame, but in reality I still wouldn't consider anyone quilty in those circumstances except the scum that did that to you.

We agree again, to a point. You're right...no one does have that right, ever, no matter what the circumstance. But you are confusing self blame with taking responsibility for one's actions. I don't blame myself, nor do I feel guilty about it. But I do know that more responsible action on my part would certainly have influenced the outcome. Call it a learning experience....granted not one that I asked for....but sometimes we learn the most from things we didn't choose for ourselves.

quote:

quote:

I have heard, from you and others, the idea that by fighting for and forcing the issue in the vanilla world it will make it easier down the road for the rest of us. While that is certainly a noble intent, it does not take into consideration the wishes of "all" of us. I certainly don't want anyone suffering or bearing scars for a right and privilege that I will never use.

Erin, you know I love you, right? But I know that "I will never" isn't nearly as long as you think it is. (remember the Boogie?) We have the right to peaceful assembly... I MAY never use it, I may never feel the need to protest publicly or petition the government or congress... but you know what? I'm sure glad to know I can if I choose to. I know you and I know that you are not nearly as closed minded as you are currently coming across. If everyone felt the same way then gay people would still be in the closet and blacks would still be unable to marry whites.
ShiftedJewel

Well,, you know I love you too. But what you are referring to at the Boogie is a completely different issue as I see it. I don't believe I ever said I "would never", I believe what I said was that I "had never" to that point. That is also not something that I see or have ever seen as being wrong or inappropriate in that type of venue. But if you think back to before we went to the Boogie, Scooter had talked of a collar and leash...and my answer to that was a definitive "Nope, not gonna happen". You see, even in that venue which is certainly more accepting, that particular action is one that I still would not see as appropriate. I don't use the word never lightly....but I am pretty confident on this issue. So, if you should ever see me being led on a leash in a public(non-kink) setting, please call the police because I am being kidnapped.

Why is it that whenever someone has a view or an opinion that someone else views as more conservative they are labeled as closedminded or narrowminded. That I have to take issue with. Seeing as you do know me personally I am absolutely sure that you are more than aware that I drive myself crazy studying every situation from every possible angle before I ever make a decision in regards to where I stand on it. I know you have seen me do it many times. I overanalyze the crap out of everything and can never let myself just be the carefree impulsive type that you are...no matter how I envy that quality in you. Closedminded or narrowminded suggests to me a refusal to view things from any other point of view....and that is soooooo far removed from who I am it's not funny.

You can smack me for it later but I really had to laugh when I saw your "I didn't rock the boat" line. Seeing as I have this huge habit of "rocking boats" and even capsizing a few. No I am not afraid to rock boats or undertake battles....it's just that having the right to express my kink in public is not something that I have a personal need to fight for. But I've never told anyone else that if it is something they feel strongly about that they can't stand up for it. What I have said is that if they choose such an undertaking, they should do so aware of all of the possible ramifications of their action and the conviction to accept the full responsiblity of said action.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 76

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 8:14:07 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

Not in response to anyone.

I must be very blessed to need so little in terms of Ds and BDSM.

I'm not attracted to "fetish" clothing, I find leashes to be confining to me as the dominant, and overt displays of submission are unnecessary the vast majority of the time.

So when I'm out with Fox, other than his extra politeness and his collar, there is nothing to see and point at.

We can be out without any of those things that other folks have mentioned as questionable in public. It must be harder to want or need those things and feel like you can't do them in public as an extension of yourself. How much of that "can't do" is objective and how much of it is based on fear of possiblities?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 77

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 8:51:32 AM

Evanesce

Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

So, to answer the question at hand... I think that when exerting one person's rights does not suppress the rights of others and the action/presence is not illegal... it violates no one.

I think this sums up my feelings on the subject very well. I am within my rights to wear collar and/or cuffs in public, and I don't particularly care if someone points and laughs. I call Master "Sir" at all times (as does my high schooler unmentionable). I don't kneel in general public, but only because Master does not require this of me. But I walk a half step behind Him at all times, and I don't look at menus in restaurants if He is present, which occasionally raises an eyebrow from the wait staff. And He's been known to grab a fistful of hair from time to time. (that can be embarrassing to me, sometimes, because people do take notice and I worry that they might get the wrong impression)

Overall, however, our actions harm no one. We'd not go out and do a flogging or punishment in public, but our routine interaction isn't something that needs to be hidden from the world.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich

(in reply to MistressLorelei)

Post #: 78

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 9:22:23 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But if you think back to before we went to the Boogie, Scooter had talked of a collar and leash...and my answer to that was a definitive "Nope, not gonna happen". You see, even in that venue which is certainly more accepting, that particular action is one that I still would not see as appropriate.

Ok, now i am confused. I like you and i'm not putting you down here just asking. I know you are very aware of the "old" biker ways; leashes were quite common, not as an M/s thing or even as a kink, simply another way to mark your property. So why would you consider being leashed in a closed biker venue to be inappropriate?

We already have our Boogie spot reserved this year and before you were ill Scooter and Jewel were looking forward to you coming with, i offered to ride you 2 up(bitch or passenger position) so everybody got to ride. Neither of them has mentioned a leash to me but probably only because they know i would want to go shopping for one now! Me, at the end of his or her leash? Paint me pretty colors and label me proud as a peacock!

I am in their collar (stainless steel) 24/7 no exceptions, i bear their joint ownership tattoo on my left upper arm, I do not see how a leash would be any more of a display than those two items.

If you get to go is this going to offend you? Why? Did the public sex (this is a closed no one under 21 allowed event for those of you who do not know) offend or upset you?

Have you ever scened in public, in an appropriate venue for it of course? Or attended an event for this purpose?

If you have not is it because you find it inappropriate? Or if you have why did you find it acceptable then?

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 79

RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/14/2006 9:56:49 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Ok, now i am confused. I like you and i'm not putting you down here just asking. I know you are very aware of the "old" biker ways; leashes were quite common, not as an M/s thing or even as a kink, simply another way to mark your property. So why would you consider being leashed in a closed biker venue to be inappropriate?

OK...let me see if I can clarify. Yes, leashes were common and accepted. I have never personally been on one nor would I allow myself to be, because "I" find it personally degrading. To "me" it is symbolic not of ownership, but of being subhuman or of less worth and value. So for "me personally" it would still be inappropriate in a closed biker venue. Certainly in an adult only venue I can respect the rights of others who wish to engage in that type of behavior...but the thread is not about closed adult only venues....it is about general public. No distinction has been made between an adult only night club(where I would have no issues with it) and Chuckie Cheese(where I would have HUGE issues with it).

quote:

If you get to go is this going to offend you? Why? Did the public sex (this is a closed no one under 21 allowed event for those of you who do not know) offend or upset you?

Of course what you choose to do at an adult only venue would not offend me. If, however, Shifted and Scooter decided to take you leashed to the grandbabies birthday party at the local Chuckie Cheese...I would not find that appropriate and would most likely decline my attendance. I don't however, knowing them personally, think that they would wish to do that. But if they did, I think they would also respect my decision not to partake. As to the public sex, unless you are referring to nudity, I was not witness to public sex....and no, I don't consider what people do inside of their closed tent or motor home any more public than what I do in my bedroom in a city where my neighbors are no farther away than the nearest tent or motor home. However, it was an adult only venue as we have already said and no....that would not offend me.

quote:

Have you ever scened in public, in an appropriate venue for it of course? Or attended an event for this purpose?

If you have not is it because you find it inappropriate? Or if you have why did you find it acceptable then?

I have scened in public countless times...at appropriate venues. I love attending events for this purpose....because they offer an APPROPRIATE place to indulge in and express my kink.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 80

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