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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 2:54:45 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, there are two kinds of people in this world.  There are people who live the kind of life they hope the Kids in the Hall will approve, and there are people who live their own lives and leave the Kids in the Hall to their own childish devices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlesubie

Haven't you seen the SAVAGE ridicule levelled against lifestylers by the Kids in the Hall?

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 3:07:34 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
I strongly believe that we should live our lives as openly as possible, that's the only thing that is going to show the rest of the population that we are all just like the guy next door. I don't believe that we should openly "scene", that would be like saying I want to watch my neighbor having sex (ok, that's a pic I DON'T want in my head). But collars and fetish wear (so long as it's legal and all the stuff that is supposed to be covered up is)... why not? Is a corset and skirt more revealing then some of the bikinis seen on beachs all the time? My corset covers up more then most of my summer shirts... so which is more appropiate?
 
Jewel


Well, uhmmm, gee...I actually have nothing more to add!! Consider me gagged. LOL

Couldn't have said it any better.

Cin

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 3:20:24 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I'll just add that I completely agree with Erin's perspective on this.  And reposting a response to the great thread on a fairly similar topic http://www.collarchat.com/m_353539/mpage_12/tm.htm (Discrimination in Public Places:

We did a "bad thing" this weekend.

It was DC LeatherFest and we wanted to go to the social/vending on Sunday.  I wore my leather collette corset, with black jeans, boots and a collar, and my two other partners wore all black as well.

We went to the social and hung out for awhile but didn't see anything very intriguing so, after about an hour, we left.

We didn't feel like going home yet so we decided to go to the movies together- at a vanilla mall.  We walked around the stores a bit and then went to the movies.

Nothing happened- other than a few looks and giggles.  We weren't trying to make a stand, we weren't trying to show off, we'd simply decided we wanted to walk the mall and go to the movies.

I don't really think I did anything wrong.



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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 3:31:24 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
If LordDomlyDom wishes to lead his slave around by her nipples then he had better expect that there will be a reaction to that action. By taking your "actions" into a public setting you have already given consent to the "reactions" of others.


This is a point you feel compelled to keep making, and to some degree I agree, that we have to expect reactions to any action we do in public, no matter how positive or negative. If I go out of my way to help a stranger then I can expect that they might feel compelled to state how grateful they are. My reaction might be pleasure or embarrasment, depending on how they express their gratitude...

We agree on that, so, let's get down to brass tacks here. You say above that if we go out in public we are consenting to their reactions.

So, if their reaction is to throw a punch, or yell obscenities, we consented to that?

Since you feel strongly about this issue (and I respect that), I'm curious as to where you draw the line on this?

Cin

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 3:38:04 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Hello A/all,

I worked at the RenFaire as a teenager, where public floggings and sex parties after hours seemed to be the norm.

On the other hand, I would not want to wear a pair of assless chaps into Dennys.  (Not that I want to wear / own a pair, Im making a point here...)  I see people in collars and weird hair and the like all over the place.  I personally dont really see that as a non-consensual scene:  You know what it means, which doesnt mean Joe Blokes from Podunk eating his rooty-tooty fresh and fruity breakfast at IHOP does.  And even if he does know that some people consider it a BDSM thing, it does not really apply as prima facie evidence that you are involved in the lifestyle.  Perhaps your parents own a leather store.

Throwing my cheerleader uniform wearing submissive over the trunk of my car down at the beach, in front of everybody working on their tan, beating her silly, and butt-raping her, seems to have crossed over the lines of acceptability (in my opinion) and having public consent prior to engaging in our lifestyle somewhere.

A good example would be that phenomena of the 70s (dating myself here) known as "streaking."  Somebody disrobing and charging from one side of the field to the other at a football game is non-consensually involving everybody watching the game with their nudity.  Sure, many people thought it was funny and some wrote cheesy songs about it which became one-hit wonders, but still.  I want to enjoy my overpriced hot dog and watered down beer, as well as men spitting and scratching their crotch, without seeing some dudes miniscule unit.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 3:39:16 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, there are two kinds of people in this world.  There are people who live the kind of life they hope the Kids in the Hall will approve, and there are people who live their own lives and leave the Kids in the Hall to their own childish devices.




(I do love KITH, though, being Canadian.)

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quote:


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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 4:44:34 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

Now I'm not advocating what an idiotic group of kinksters here did one fine summer day which was, on a lovely Sunday afternoon, in a public and crowded park, gladwrap someone to a pole. That got the police called. But simple small things such as collars, kneeling, speaking respectfully...perhaps we are a tad oversensitive?


totally totally over sensitive.. which it's been trying to get across.. as well as tons of other ppl.. but ya cant convince some ppl!  Totally agree with you!  Hopefully you didnt get to much back lash with the post = )

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 4:51:53 PM   
RiotGirl


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quote:

Well while we're all getting "serious", whether I'm in a committed M/s or casual D/s relationship, *both* come under the same umbrella of SEXUALITY = personal and private.

Focus.


So then.. one would think that ANY relationship would come under SEXUALITY.. which means that the couple kissing is imposing their sex lives.. and well there goes holding hands with Master out the window!

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 5:04:36 PM   
piscess


Posts: 101
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline 		Public consent matters when there are other things at stake.
 
First my professional life would suffer greatly, as would the professional lives of the Men I have had relationships with. 
 
I don't need to share how I choose to live my personal life with the public, but for those who wish to, more power to ya.
 
piscess

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 5:25:47 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
If LordDomlyDom wishes to lead his slave around by her nipples then he had better expect that there will be a reaction to that action. By taking your "actions" into a public setting you have already given consent to the "reactions" of others.


This is a point you feel compelled to keep making, and to some degree I agree, that we have to expect reactions to any action we do in public, no matter how positive or negative. If I go out of my way to help a stranger then I can expect that they might feel compelled to state how grateful they are. My reaction might be pleasure or embarrasment, depending on how they express their gratitude...

We agree on that, so, let's get down to brass tacks here. You say above that if we go out in public we are consenting to their reactions.

So, if their reaction is to throw a punch, or yell obscenities, we consented to that?

Since you feel strongly about this issue (and I respect that), I'm curious as to where you draw the line on this?

Cin


Well you're right Cin, I do feel pretty strongly about it. It is all too often that people seem to want to do whatever it is they want to do without care or concern for anyone but themselves.....and they don't want to be personally accountable for their actions or the impact of them on others.

I would certainly hope that people would be adult enough to be able to express their opposing view without having to resort to violence and if it did escalate to that you would certainly be within your rights to have that person arrested. It is however, a very real possibility in the world in which we live.

I know that you feel passionately about your right to free expression as that is a point that you seem compelled to keep making (and I respect that). There was a time not all that long ago, and actually I am sure still happens in instances today, where the gay and lesbian community has been the target of many instances of violence. Do I think that is right or condone it? Of course I don't. But the reality is that when people feel passionately about things they tend to defend those things just as passionately and things can blow up very quickly. And yes, I do think that it is something you need to consider when you step outside the "norms" accepted by society as a whole to practice your free expression in a place where you KNOW it will not be accepted readily.

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 5:35:03 PM   
mastrscait


Posts: 18
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Status: offline 		spicey, i thought all of your posts were well written.  i understand your thoughts and can simulate the same types of things happening within my own life.  i don't think that wearing a collar though, forces anything into anyones face. Nor does kneeling, these are but simple and reverent things that we do.  Sexaual?  Not at all!  It is who i am and represents my life and my love.  But tying me to a tree in the local park, agreed, this is forcing my sexuality on others.  Would i want my children to see it? No, of course not.  Would i want my children to see me showing love and affection to my One in simple gestures of kindness and love by wearing His collar or ring, kneeling by His side? Absolutely!!  i want my children to know of the love and affection that exists out there.  Am i forcing a lifestyle practice upon them or anyone else by doing so?  No, i think not.   i also wear a beautiful cross of gold, does this mean that i am forcing my religion on someone? 
There have been many good posts here on this subject.  All are valid points and for as many posts we will have as many different points of veiw.  The opportunity to show our real selves without suffering any reprecusions is one of the many luxuries that we can share in this time that we live in today, but often forget. 

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 5:54:32 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		 What do I think?

I think it's inappropriate. I think it's inappropriate to do a lot of things in public that all kinds of people do. I think it's inappropriate to make out at the DMV (something I've seen), to wear copius amounts of jewelry to work (something I've seen), to poke and jab people at work (something my supervisor does constantly), to douse yourself in perfume after smoking a pack of cigarettes and then standing in my checkout line so that I gag for the next twenty minutes. And I think it's inappropriate to kneel on the floor in McDonalds (besides, who would want to? Yick) or wear my collar to the office.

I don't do those things, either. It matters to me when other people do them, but I'm not really the get-in-their-face-and-bitch-about-it type of person. So, I'll do my best to avoid the situation, try to imagine it isn't there, or run the other direction.

quote:


I look around at the spikey purpled and pink haired dude with the massive face piercings and the spiked collar around his neck that I know isn't any kinkier than my next door neighbor, the girl dressed in clothes so clashing in colour as to make my eyes water, the business suit who just tossed his garbage on the sidewalk at my feet and a hundered other daily goings on by the general public and say....I consented to this???


No, you probably didn't. But wearing your fetish gear to pump gas at the station isn't going to right the wrongs that people forced onto you.

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 5:55:21 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allspicey
Are we over paranoid?  Do we assume that everyone knows what we are doing because we are so accutely aware of it?  Should we really perhaps just relax a little?


I think people should live their lives whatever way makes them happiest/they are comfortable with. Just because someone is happiest with their D/s, M/s or kink being a private thing doesn't mean they are hiding who they are or repressed or afraid or any other number of negative connotations we could give that kind of behaviour. Likewise, just because someone is comfortable  with public displays of their  D/s, M/s or kink doesn't make them irresponsible, inconsiderate attention seekers either.  Again, people should live life in a way that makes them happiest and if that happens to garner attention from others because what makes them happiest is outside the norm then they have to accept that's the way it's going to be. 

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 5:56:21 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
There was a time not all that long ago, and actually I am sure still happens in instances today, where the gay and lesbian community has been the target of many instances of violence. Do I think that is right or condone it? Of course I don't. But the reality is that when people feel passionately about things they tend to defend those things just as passionately and things can blow up very quickly.


As you know from the previous thread on this, I was around in the 80's when the gay community here stopped allowing others to tell them they should hide and feel ashamed of who they were. Many people I adore bear the physical and emotional scars of that battle. None of us are sorry we stood up for what we believed in. They have their rights, and we know the younger generation has freedoms they didn't, and that gives the suffering some purpose.

Public violence is never an answer, we both agree on that.

Perhaps this has a lot to do with being Canadian, I don't believe people should have to hide who they are, when what they do causes no harm. I've yet to be convinced that wearing leather, or bdsm symbols such as tattoos or collars harms anyone. If wearing a leather collar goes against your employer's dress code then it stays home, as do my corsets and leather cuffs, since I work in a school. Outside of that, I feel I have a right to be who I am.

quote:


But the reality is that when people feel passionately about things they tend to defend those things just as passionately and things can blow up very quickly. And yes, I do think that it is something you need to consider when you step outside the "norms" accepted by society as a whole to practice your free expression in a place where you KNOW it will not be accepted readily.


And so the responsibility lies with the person who went outside the norm, and not with the person who commits the violence? Isn't that a bit like saying a woman who gets raped while wearing a low-cut blouse brought it upon herself?

As far as I can tell it's not the collar-wearer who is at blame here, it's the person who couldn't look the other way and stooped to violence.

Cin


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quote:


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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 6:35:52 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:


But the reality is that when people feel passionately about things they tend to defend those things just as passionately and things can blow up very quickly. And yes, I do think that it is something you need to consider when you step outside the "norms" accepted by society as a whole to practice your free expression in a place where you KNOW it will not be accepted readily.


And so the responsibility lies with the person who went outside the norm, and not with the person who commits the violence? Isn't that a bit like saying a woman who gets raped while wearing a low-cut blouse brought it upon herself?

As far as I can tell it's not the collar-wearer who is at blame here, it's the person who couldn't look the other way and stooped to violence.

Cin



Cin,
I don't wish to be misunderstood here so I want to say it right out. "I" am not trying to tell "you" how to live your life. Actually, I am not telling anyone here how to conduct themselves. I can only say to you what is right for me and my life. I can only express to you my views and opinions on the subject. I don't expect you to agree with them.

I have heard, from you and others, the idea that by fighting for and forcing the issue in the vanilla world it will make it easier down the road for the rest of us. While that is certainly a noble intent, it does not take into consideration the wishes of "all" of us. I certainly don't want anyone suffering or bearing scars for a right and privilege that I will never use. I will never see public displays as being appropriate and to be very honest with you I view them as lacking in class...and I don't confine that to the world of kink, I feel the same way when I see a vanilla couple "expressing themselves" inappropriately in a public setting also.

As to the part of your post that I quoted, please do not put words into my mouth or assume what I have not stated. I never said that the person reacting violently bore no responsibility. Actually, the entire point of every post I have made on this topic is that we are "ALL" accountable and responsible for our actions. The person who chose to step outside the norm bears the responsibility of that action....just as the person who resorted to the violence bears the responsibility of his action. The problem lies in that while we can be responsible for our actions...we can not be responsible for or predict the reactions of others.

What I am saying is that if you make it your choice to stand on a soapbox...then stand on it all the way through til the end. Do so with an awareness of not only your issue...but how it is that your issue will be perceived and what ALL of the possible ramifications of your actions are. Then accept the responsibility and be accountable for all that stepping up onto that platform encompasses. A very wise man once gave me a sage piece of advice that has served me well, even if it does sound a bit cliche. He said "Don't ever let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash". A bit crude...but oh so wise.

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 7:15:39 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have heard, from you and others, the idea that by fighting for and forcing the issue in the vanilla world it will make it easier down the road for the rest of us. While that is certainly a noble intent, it does not take into consideration the wishes of "all" of us. I certainly don't want anyone suffering or bearing scars for a right and privilege that I will never use.


Fine, then stop thinking they're doing it for you. They still have the right to be doing it for themselves, and for those in future generations who will want the right. Just because you don't want the right to freedom of expression of your BDSM doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't have it. I, personally, don't care if you ever go out in public with a collar or a tattoo, but I'm still going to fight for the right to do so. I'm not outing you by doing so, I'm not forcing you to join me.

quote:


I will never see public displays as being appropriate and to be very honest with you I view them as lacking in class...and I don't confine that to the world of kink, I feel the same way when I see a vanilla couple "expressing themselves" inappropriately in a public setting also.


Fine, but couples do have the right to reasonable forms of PDA, whether you like it or not. It's not up to you to decide that. Look the other way and move on.

quote:


The person who chose to step outside the norm bears the responsibility of that action....just as the person who resorted to the violence bears the responsibility of his action. The problem lies in that while we can be responsible for our actions...we can not be responsible for or predict the reactions of others.


Please explain to me how this is different from saying a woman who gets raped while wearing a low-cut blouse is partly responsible for her rape.

quote:


What I am saying is that if you make it your choice to stand on a soapbox...then stand on it all the way through til the end.


I agree. But nowhere is it stated that the end is the revoking of my rights to be protected from discrimination and violence.

I have a right to be free from these things and my wearing a collar does not automatically make those rights null and void.

Cin

Edited: for quotation screw-ups

< Message edited by Vancouver_cinful -- 5/13/2006 7:18:23 PM >

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quote:


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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 7:16:43 PM   
Reflectivesoul


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline 		For me personally I think that wearing a collar, corset, anything along those lines isnt a bad thing, but it will draw attention and people will talk, as a society what else can they do but make their oppinions or distastes known? It doesnt mean that anyone has to agree with them on that, but at the same time they are only expressing their distaste for an action they see. Just as "us" expressing that we dislike something society has deemed inappropriate. Its a vicious circle but I will have to agree that if you wear it out and someone says something dont whine about it because you already know where you live and know if it is socially accpetable or not. If you want to go to a club and get decked out in gear ok you most likely arent going to cause that much of a stir but to do that and intentionally go to Applebees or somewhere then what you get is all on you. Use some common sense and rational judgements and you should be fine. As a side note for those of you that have jobs where a leather collar is going to be looked at as a bad thing... this is why there are many other forms of collars out there, just because it doesnt have an "O" ring in the center doesnt mean its any less of an expression of ownership from your Dominant.

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 8:05:48 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
quote:


I will never see public displays as being appropriate and to be very honest with you I view them as lacking in class...and I don't confine that to the world of kink, I feel the same way when I see a vanilla couple "expressing themselves" inappropriately in a public setting also.


Fine, but couples do have the right to reasonable forms of PDA, whether you like it or not. It's not up to you to decide that. Look the other way and move on.
Cin


Well if you look carefully you will see that I used the word "inappropriate". You say they have the right to "reasonable" forms of PDA. We are in agreement. What me might not be in agreement on is what we perceive to be "inappropriate" or "reasonable". You need to decide that for yourself...and I need to decide that for me. And it's not up to "you" to decide my reaction. I can choose for myself and have as much right to do so if I want to look away and move on or express my distaste to them personally.

quote:


quote:
The person who chose to step outside the norm bears the responsibility of that action....just as the person who resorted to the violence bears the responsibility of his action. The problem lies in that while we can be responsible for our actions...we can not be responsible for or predict the reactions of others.



Please explain to me how this is different from saying a woman who gets raped while wearing a low-cut blouse is partly responsible for her rape.  


Rape is a violent act. Nowhere have I said that anyone has the right to resort to violence EVER. What I did say is that violence in our world today IS a valid possible response that we can and should expect. That doesn't make it right...it just IS.

To address your rape scenario directly I will tell you this, although you are probably aware as I have posted it here before. At the age of 18 I was very violently raped by multiple attackers, beaten, tossed out of a car going down the freeway and left for dead. I wasn't wearing a low cut shirt or other provacative attire, I was wearing a sweatshirt and jeans. I wasn't flirting or flaunting myself. What I was doing was hitchhiking...an act that as women we are told over and over and over again is an unsafe practice. So tell me, did that give those men the right to rape and beat me? Well, fuck no it didn't. But I DID put myself in a position that I KNEW could be unsafe....and yes I do take responsibility for that on my part. It doesn't make what they did any less wrong. But I also know in my heart of hearts that I could have avoided the whole thing if I would have practiced a bit more responsible behavior on my end and not volunteered myself to so easily be their victim.

quote:


quote:


What I am saying is that if you make it your choice to stand on a soapbox...then stand on it all the way through til the end.



I agree. But nowhere is it stated that the end is the revoking of my rights to be protected from discrimination and violence.

I have a right to be free from these things and my wearing a collar does not automatically make those rights null and void.

Cin 



And nowhere did I state that.

I am not sure why the concept of accepting responsiblity for one's own actions is such a difficult one. What I am getting at this point is that this has become personal somehow for you in regards to me. I'm not sure why it is that you seem to be so offended that my views differ from yours....isn't that exactly what you are so passionate about...the right to be different and express it?

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 9:36:59 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
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Status: offline 		With with the more conservative types.
I don't believe wearing a collar in public ought to bother anyone, and wouldn't care about making a boy wear one.  Other obvious rituals (excessively skimpy attire, kneeling in public, etc) however, I would use a more subtle/conservative approach.  As a matter of fact, I tend to look for someone who is similarly conservative at certain times because I have an unmentionable I don't want to expose to excessively out of mainstream behaviors.    M

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RE: When Does Public Consent Matter? - 5/13/2006 9:54:24 PM   
ElectraGlide


Posts: 1246
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I will say one thing about you Allspicey you sound mighty happy. Keep doing what you are doing, you only live once and you might as well live a happy life.

(in reply to allspicey)
Profile   Post #: 60
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