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Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:19:26 AM   
lisa1978


Posts: 224
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
Status: offline 		I do not know how many people are aware of a personality disorder called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is basically (I am not a doctor so I am sorry if I butcher this), a person who has a self idealized image and belief in themselves that they are better or superior to everyone and searches out people and activities to give them external validation of their belief.

They are people who have to be the center of attention at all times. For example, might be in a group who are talking about American Idol but since they do not watch the show they try to very abruptly change the subject or explain how stupid it is. To them every boss and coworker is a moron and everything they do or talk about is phrased as vitally important or very noble.

They end up changing friends they hang out with every few years as they abandon them. They are quick to ask favors but never do favors for anybody and when confronted about something or a criticism they then go to personal and irrational attacks of the people confronting them.

The reason I bring this up is, I have had real life non D/s experience with a couple and in one case her parents tried to do an intervention for her.  I was wondering if anybody else has seen people with this disorder try to immerse themselves as Doms or Masters?

When I was active in a local community and several people I have corresponded with online have come off as very much having this disorder. I just think that maybe this lifestyle might draw people with the disorder as dominants in order to mistakenly find a sub or a slave to worship them and feed their addiction.

Please let me clarify one thing. I do not believe that you can be a Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress with this disorder. So I am in no way saying that a percentage of dominants have this. All I am saying is there might be some wolves in sheep’s clothing. To me these people that would be in the lifestyle almost certainly are without subs or slaves and/or go through them very quickly and always blame harshly the sub and slave for the failed relationship.

For me personally, I am always on the look out for this, because of my regular experience with a few narcissists that can be tough and painful.
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:26:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Dominants, by their nature have got to have a healthy ego.  I am somewhat jaded by the notion of all these personality disorders, having a personality disorder that will make a grand slice of the population consider me an asshole.  However; I recieve no government benefits or  mitigating circumstances when on trial for murder......

Having said that, I do think there are extreme personality quirks in the populous, that when they seriously interfere with normal life, need treatment.....but all the lactose intolerant want to jump on the bandwagon it seems.


Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to lisa1978)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:28:39 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I'm very skeptical that there really is such a "disorder."  For one thing, the DSM grounds for diagnosis are so vague and subjective that three-quarters of the people I know could qualify.

quote:


(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love 
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) 
(4) requires excessive admiration 
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations 
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends 
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others 
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her 
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

I'm not saying there aren't narcissists in the world; I'm saying that I doubt narcissism is really a DISEASE.  We don't diagnose things like tuberculosis or pneumonia by the same wispy criteria that we're asked to accept for NPD.  Really, who hasn't been envious of others or hasn't shown arrogant, haughty attitudes?

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:29:58 AM   
becca333


Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline 		You've described a lot of people!

When does a person go from being a spoilt, selfish insensitive jerk to someone with NPD, or any other syndrome or disorder?  These days they put names on a whole lot of new disorders that used to just be a lack of self-control, maturity and consideration for others.

But, if it is a genuine condition, I think your prediction about them is totally correct.  There's a lot of people wandering the net from site to site, even from fetish to fetish, craving that attention.  And when people don't bow down to them in awe, they move on because that site's not good enough.  I'd hate to run across one as a Dom.  They'd be the sort of Dom/me who could really mess up a newbie - and they'd be the type to grab the newbies, who didn't know any better.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:32:32 AM   
becca333


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Joined: 4/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I'm very skeptical that there really is such a "disorder."  For one thing, the DSM grounds for diagnosis are so vague and subjective that three-quarters of the people I know could qualify.

quote:


(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love 
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) 
(4) requires excessive admiration 
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations 
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends 
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others 
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her 
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

I'm not saying there aren't narcissists in the world; I'm saying that I doubt narcissism is really a DISEASE.  We don't diagnose things like tuberculosis or pneumonia by the same wispy criteria that we're asked to accept for NPD.  Really, who hasn't been envious of others or hasn't shown arrogant, haughty attitudes?


It's interesting to note that our education system spends years telling each child that he/she is special and important. Then the minute they start to believe it, they're certifiable.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:33:02 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Laugh.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:36:48 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
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From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Aren't narcissists just a bitch?

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:49:09 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978
I was wondering if anybody else has seen people with this disorder try to immerse themselves as Doms or Masters?

Oh yes.

But it's also important to remember, like ALL personality disorders- we're all part of the spectrum.  We've all got our obsessions and compulsions, we've all got our irrational ideas about ourself and the world, we react irrationally in some ways.  So someone who has a few arrogant streaks to them or an over inflated ego isn't necessarily NPD- they are just a bit farther on the spectrum.

The problem is when it gets to the point of a disorder, you aren't able to function with others and have healthy relationships.  NPDs are often very charismatic as well which makes it even more difficult for them to realize they have a problem.

But sadly, yes, plenty of people with NPD find a ready made environment to accept their disorder in bdsm D/s.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to lisa1978)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:51:39 AM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		While the DSM IV may list those things as part of having a "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" AND you may feel that most people you know could easily qualify, let me assure you that once you have met a person with this disorder you never forget what it is. 

Think of all these traits magnified as far as you can.  Lacking any kind of empathy and arrogant to the max!  No one wants to be near these folks and they burn out people faster than a wildfire.  They "suck" you into their world.  Because of the work I do, I have "spidey senses" regarding personality disorders.  They walk into the office and my nose starts to tingle.  There is no medications that helps and probably no therapies that are really effective with this population.

Generally, I just want to get away!


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:52:55 AM   
boy43


Posts: 44
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I'm very skeptical that there really is such a "disorder."  For one thing, the DSM grounds for diagnosis are so vague and subjective that three-quarters of the people I know could qualify.

Well mate, informe yourself better.There is a lot of information about it. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) isnt the same of liking oneself or have a great autoestime or ego. No, it isnt the same. Dont look for it in a general dictionary but in a specialized one. This kind of patients are often linked with bulling, mobbing and make huge emotional, financially and severe post traumatic shocks to their partners and people related with them.

I'm not saying there aren't narcissists in the world; I'm saying that I doubt narcissism is really a DISEASE.  We don't diagnose things like tuberculosis or pneumonia by the same wispy criteria that we're asked to accept for NPD.  Really, who hasn't been envious of others or hasn't shown arrogant, haughty attitudes?



again inform yourself better.

;)



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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 10:54:56 AM   
boy43


Posts: 44
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I'm very skeptical that there really is such a "disorder."  For one thing, the DSM grounds for diagnosis are so vague and subjective that three-quarters of the people I know could qualify.
ot saying there aren't narcissists in the world; I'm saying that I doubt narcissism is really a DISEASE.  We don't diagnose things like tuberculosis or pneumonia by the same wispy criteria that we're asked to accept for NPD.  Really, who hasn't been envious of others or hasn't shown arrogant, haughty attitudes?
[/quote]

Well mate, informe yourself better.There is a lot of information about it. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) isnt the same of liking oneself or have a great autoestime or ego. No, it isnt the same. Dont look for it in a general dictionary but in a specialized one. This kind of patients are often linked with bulling, mobbing and make huge emotional, financially and severe post traumatic shocks to their partners and people related with them.

again inform yourself better.

;)



[/quote]

(in reply to boy43)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 11:04:10 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		saying it twice isn't gonna help.  There is also a Valhalla and Valkyries and a planet Gor.

Again, inform yourself better.

Ron the untutored 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 11:06:35 AM   
MasterGentry


Posts: 14
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Besides smacking the taste out of their mouths, a punch or two to dull their arrogance as they spew their lunch onto their mirrors thereby causing themselves greater distress because they can't see their image.
  They are an unmistakeable personality when met in person, but My needing further anger management counseling has always caused Me to foreshorten any friendship that might have developed between us. A pair of twins that, I met were the worst of them all because they fed on one another, supporting the others perception of themselves because that gave them further proof that they were perfection personified.
  I should be ashamed of Myself, but, I caused them some distress whenever, I mentioned their large, unsightly feet and ugly outer labia. Neither had large feet , and their labia were perfect, as most are  (weg), but their reactions were so amusing that, I reveled in tormenting them.
 Gentry

quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978

For me personally, I am always on the look out for this, because of my regular experience with a few narcissists that can be tough and painful.

(in reply to lisa1978)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 11:12:21 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		wether it is a true disorder or not, I doubt its treatable. My father-in-law is one of the most narcissistic people I have ever encountered and will push himself to an early grave because of it. I just feel bad for his family that for whatever reason, love the guy, and have to deal with his crap. Theirs is a thankless task, constantly feeding him and never getting anything back. Always feeling like they are the ones lacking.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 11:21:26 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
wether it is a true disorder or not, I doubt its treatable. My father-in-law is one of the most narcissistic people I have ever encountered and will push himself to an early grave because of it. I just feel bad for his family that for whatever reason, love the guy, and have to deal with his crap. Theirs is a thankless task, constantly feeding him and never getting anything back. Always feeling like they are the ones lacking.

PD's are generally harder to treat than anything else because they are usually very deeply ingrained and built up over a very long period of time, thus truly becoming the persons processes.

Traditional treatments tend to only reinforce the process.  The best ways to have worked are cognitive ones which force the person to begin looking at themselves and their processes from an outside perspective.  For most people of any kind, this is a hard thing to do, especially on a consistent basis.  NPDs are especially resistant because simply entering into therapy feeds into the NPD's disorders AND breaking down their processes requires them to not only admit and face their bad habits, but face their own faulty self-perceptions.

People on here get snippy if you don't capitalize their names right. 

Again I want to state that simply being an arrogant asshole isn't the same as NPD.  Just as I have moderate OCD symptoms, I do not have obsessive compulsive disorder. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 11:29:47 AM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

PD's are generally harder to treat than anything else because they are usually very deeply ingrained and built up over a very long period of time, thus truly becoming the persons processes.


IMHO, PD's are probably genetic from birth and then the things they experience from birth can either exacerbate or mediate symptoms as they grow older.  Since I work with kids from the ages of 4 -21, I've seen the symptomology in even the young ones.  For me, Borderline Personality Disorder is the absolute worst!  They often have all the traits of all of the other PDs combined.


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 11:54:52 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I'm just kind of stunned that people are speaking about PD's as though they were real things, just because they're listed in some diagnostic manual.  Really, how do you apply those criteria to DIAGNOSE someone with NPD?  What does "excessive" mean?  What does "preoccupied" mean?  Almost everyone in the world would qualify as a narcissist by someone's interpretation of that language.

If you can show me physical abnormalities in the brain that contribute to these characteristics (as in the case of dementia, depression, and so on), then I might take this more seriously.  But as long is at all depends on observing someone's behavior and deciding whether it qualifies as "excessive" or "grandiose," the concept sounds fictitious and very dangerous.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/26/2006 11:55:14 AM >

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 12:00:03 PM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline
I’ll speak to this subject the same way I speak to any "mental illness" in regards to the lifestyle. I don’t think that the two have to be mutually exclusive. Some Dominants may have this disorder. Others may not. The disorder does not make the person. It is simply a part of the person. If they choose BDSM because they have the disorder, or they realize they have the disorder after having lived in the lifestyle, it’s really no consequence. It doesn’t matter which came first, the chicken or the egg. Perhaps they are using BDSM as a way of exploiting the symptoms. Perhaps they are using BDSM as a way of managing their disorder. Perhaps they are totally unaware.

I don’t place much stake in "diagnoses", just like I don’t place much stake in other labels. The DSM is way out of control, especially here in the US. Labels are being slapped on every Tom, Dick, and Harry for every little quirk they display out of the status quo. Criteria are way too broad, subjective, and vague. I would guarantee that most people, if they walked into a psych. office looking for a label, could quite easily obtain one.

If I meet a person who carries a diagnosis, it means virtually nothing to me. I am going to get to know them as a person. I may have to adjust our interactions based on some of the ways they behave, but I’m going to have to do that with everyone, regardless of psychiatric labels.

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 12:01:05 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I'm just kind of stunned that people are speaking about PD's as though they were real things, just because they're listed in some diagnostic manual.

That's certainly not why *I* consider PD's real problems.

quote:

Almost everyone in the world would qualify as a narcissist by someone's interpretation of that language.

I agree, in fact my replies have said so.  The main differentiator for me is whether the person is able to function on a day to day basis and maintain healthy relationships. 

quote:

 But as long is at all depends on observing someone's behavior and deciding whether it qualifies as "excessive" or "grandiose," the concept sounds fictitious and very dangerous.

I can understand that.  And mis or overdiagnosing someone like this IS a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.  It's why I'm always very careful to correct people when they say I have OCD as an actual disorder, or throw around disorders at others.  People who actually HAVE this as a problem to the point of being a disorder are not common and far beyond being "egotistical" or "needing to count steps."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/26/2006 12:08:10 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		The very notion of "misdiagnosing" or "overdiagnosing" presumes the concept of "correctly diagnosing."  In other words, you have to assume that there is such a thing as NPD before you can even get to the concept of misdiagnosing or overdiagnosing it.  I'm still stuck on Square 1: why are we assuming that such a thing exists?  If it does, there have to be more definite criteria than what the DSM offers.  What are they?  I'd like to see something involving physiology, not subjective characterizations of people's behavior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And mis or overdiagnosing someone like this IS a very dangerous and stupid thing to do.

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