RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus

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tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 9:16:23 AM)
quote: In 1992 an estimated 21,655 felony defendants nationwide were convicted of rape; 8 in 10 had pleaded guilty. Which means 80% who were convicted admitted they were guilty. Over two-thirds of convicted rape defendants received a prison sentence. 14, 436 were given prison sentences. Among 906,000 offenders confined in State prisons in 1994, 88,000, or 9.7%, were violent sex offenders. or roughly 5 years at 15000 a year, which is what your statistics say had become the normal amount of time served. In round numbers, there are about 100,000 men incarcerated for rape- multiply it by 100 and you get 10 million. If that doesn't require a massive expansion of our prison system- I don't know what does. And what you are missing is that violent rape should be incarcerated. Incest should be incarcerated. Statutory rape should be incarcerated. If you dont agree, please explain why.

barelynangel -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 9:16:23 AM)
Sam, as i said, take your happy ass down to a rape crisis center, criminal trials etc and actually get your hands dirty... until you do, your science is FLAWED. But you feel better lol keeping yourself at a distance because i really don't think you could handle the reality of the situation. Your real statistics Sam, are in the hotlines, are in the people, are in those who don't report it because they feel they did something wrong. The fact you aren't willing to acknowledge the vastness of those unreported and not in touch with the reality of women who experience rape in many different forms, and even those women who are sexually assaulted and subsequently murdered, to wives who are raped by their husbands and believe well i am married to him, to young adults raped by authority figures in their lives but don't report it. Your posting here really does show ignorance, because it shows you aren't in touch with the concepts of non-reported rapes and assaults. THAT is what brings about changes in laws Sam, when people start speaking up -- not necessarily reporting but the concept of the vast number of unreported rapes and assaults in all different aspects of rapes causes people to sit up and take notice that there is a problem. Hell if all they ever went on was statistics of arrests, we would all be screwed. Mnay times Sam, what is made to count is the talk, not the statistics. angel

Arpig -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 9:23:17 AM)
quote: However, my goal here is to prevent a different tragedy- the tarring of young students who had no responsibility for the authorship of what may have been serious- or may have been a prank. If that really is your goal, then you're failing miserably. When the thread started I was of the 'no big deal really, just a bunch of stupid drunken frat boys' opinion, but your posts have moved me solidly into the 'this is a serious thing that needs to be dealt with harshly' opinion.

tj444 -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 9:27:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse And this is what I keep thinking when I read your posts Sam. Seriously, as a woman, your statistics mean jack shit. You may think they are important but to me and every woman I know, your numbers prattle is just offensive prattle. It's trivializing the trauma. You have no idea the visceral reaction your words create in many women reading them. And I've never been raped. THIS! THIS! THIS!

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 9:37:45 AM)
All right Tazzy- it seems that reading a link is beyond you as well. Here's Aya Gruber's words on the subject: Law professor says feminists should abandon tough rape laws and the war on crime A battle against rape has been a big part of America's 30-year war on crime, as feminists and equal rights advocates pushed for prosecution of accused rapists and new laws to protect victims, with the expectation that vigorous enforcement would reduce sexual assault. But University of Iowa law professor Aya Gruber (left) says those efforts have failed and feminism should now distance itself from a criminal justice system she believes is too influenced by the cultural status quo to produce social justice. "Feminists have reached the limit of that legal effort and the current criminal law no longer provides a meaningful avenue for change," Gruber wrote in her paper, "Rape, Feminism and the War on Crime," published recently in the Washington Law Review by the University of Washington College of Law. "The lonely voice of women's empowerment cannot and will not be heard above the sound and fury of the criminal system's other messages that reinforce stereotypes, construct racial and socio-economic (structures) and unmoor crime from issues of social justice." Gruber points to studies of criminal data that shows well-intentioned legal reforms like shield laws and affirmative consent laws do not work. While the number of "stranger rapes" by men who violently attack women has dropped, other, more subtle forms of sexual assault like date rape are still chronic. She said the criminal justice system is unequipped to deal with these subtler forms, though, because their root cause is not so much the deviant mind of a sociopath but the often-accepted social behaviors of men and women. "Criminal law's structure is to look for right and wrong with no gray area, and to hold individual's accountable for their actions. It doesn't take into consideration larger social issues-such as why the accused rapist aggressively pursued sex, or the perceived passivity of women." Gruber said. "As a result, the criminal justice system struggles to deal with rape because rape is a complex crime loaded with social freight, such as gender inequality and the sexual subordination of women."

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 9:45:23 AM)
And what part of my proposal of pretrial intervention and treatment in place of jail does not agree with her position? Btw, you omitted the part where she is pointing out what the women on this thread have pointed out to you repeatedly... On top of this is the way stereotypes of women and rape play out in the jury room. Despite the best efforts of legal reformers, the criminal justice system still sees certain rape victims as somehow complicit in the assault, as if it's a crime for them to have gone out on a date with a rapist. "As manifested in the law of rape, the complainant may be a "true" victim if she was the object of a violent attack by a monstrous stranger rapist," Gruber wrote. "However, if she exercises any agency in the encounter, such as being on a date, she is disqualified from the category of innocent victim and is instead cast as the agent who precipitated date rape ...., wholly responsible for her mistakes." Meanwhile, she said the obsession with the criminal justice system has led to such absurdities as a fourth degree sexual assault conviction and compulsory registration as a sex offender for a man who squeezed the back side of a female while they were on a dance floor in a bar. While this was happening, she said, the equal rights movement in society at large lost steam, in part, because feminists became more interested in criminal law than working for social change. "Feminism's ability to reshape gender dynamics was lost when criminal law took over," she said, such that "women should not walk the halls of power in the criminal justice system but should rather begin the complicated process of disentangling feminism and its important anti-sexual coercion stance from a hierarchy-reinforcing criminal system that is unable to produce social justice." To do that, Gruber believes the feminist movement must go back to before the war on crime, when the goal was changing society and not throwing men in jail. "Activists should turn their attention to investigating methods of addressing rape and gender inequality outside of a system that carries so much political and practical baggage," she said. Social activism, scholarship and political involvement are a start. Pointing out sexist cultural attitudes is needed, too, she said, and women need to change their own attitudes about sexuality, and their attitudes toward men. "Feminists can counteract the rape-permissive gender norms largely enforced by women instead of relentlessly focusing on the criminality of men," she said. "And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals." http://news-releases.uiowa.edu/2010/january/012210gruber.html

LaTigresse -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:04:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct "And this is what I keep thinking when I read your posts Sam. Seriously, as a woman, your statistics mean jack shit." Way to go LaT. My response is that since when did women become incapable of understanding the mathematics of social change? Should women be treated in ways that spare their "delicate sensibilities"? Or should statistics on rape not be gathered because women know what's right regardless of the facts found by the statistics? Or is their some female chauvinism going on here- that only women have the right to weigh in on a discussion about rape? Sam And yet you continue. No, it isn't women that only have the right. But your words trivialize women's feelings and experiences by trying to turn them into statistics to be debated. I am being honest with you. Apparently you would prefer to just argue statistics and forgo the emotional experience. As a general rule, I dislike violence but to get through your thick head I am beginning to wish upon YOU to be raped. Just so that you understand the emotional toll and the visceral fear that many women have. Because you just do not seem to GET IT. You take a sentence here and there, react to it, then continue spouting your worthless little factoids and studies. Behind those facts and studies are lives. Sometimes lives destroyed. And no matter what anyone here has written you just do not seem to get that. And that, regardless of your facts, regardless of your bus driving, is the core. You just cannot seem to understand the lurking fear that many women have. That a guy that you think, hope, is a decent guy, can turn your world inside out in a few minutes. That just because of your gender large numbers of members of the opposite gender want to violate you. To remove your humanity, your personal power, perhaps kill you, perhaps leave you pregnant or with a fatal illness. You just don't fucking get it Sam.

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:08:13 AM)
Tazzy Please show me in any of my posts where I say rape victims bring it on themselves. Again- you're putting words in my mouth. My stance is summed up by her statement here: "Activists should turn their attention to investigating methods of addressing rape and gender inequality outside of a system that carries so much political and practical baggage," she said. Social activism, scholarship and political involvement are a start. Pointing out sexist cultural attitudes is needed, too, she said, and women need to change their own attitudes about sexuality, and their attitudes toward men. "Feminists can counteract the rape-permissive gender norms largely enforced by women instead of relentlessly focusing on the criminality of men," she said. "And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals." Sam

barelynangel -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:09:03 AM)
quote: Should women be treated in ways that spare their "delicate sensibilities"? Wow, honestly this makes me completely astounded as to your ignorance of the crime you are thinking you are some kind of expert on. I seriously hope one day you decide to end your ignorance. Seriously Sam, you dared imply that women with regard to RAPE are simply wishing to have their delicate sensibilities spared? You really need a lesson in the reality involving this crime. angel

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:16:49 AM)
You are ignoring the reason why that she gave. You have repeatedly indicated that women lie, that rape statistics are wrong (they are, but not in the direction you wish them to be), and that this should be treated as a joke. Not gonna happen, not in a million years. And its because of those beliefs, and because of what your article stated... Gruber points to studies of criminal data that shows well-intentioned legal reforms like shield laws and affirmative consent laws do not work. While the number of "stranger rapes" by men who violently attack women has dropped, other, more subtle forms of sexual assault like date rape are still chronic. She said the criminal justice system is unequipped to deal with these subtler forms, though, because their root cause is not so much the deviant mind of a sociopath but the often-accepted social behaviors of men and women. "Criminal law's structure is to look for right and wrong with no gray area, and to hold individual's accountable for their actions. It doesn't take into consideration larger social issues-such as why the accused rapist aggressively pursued sex, or the perceived passivity of women." Gruber said. "As a result, the criminal justice system struggles to deal with rape because rape is a complex crime loaded with social freight, such as gender inequality and the sexual subordination of women." On top of this is the way stereotypes of women and rape play out in the jury room. Despite the best efforts of legal reformers, the criminal justice system still sees certain rape victims as somehow complicit in the assault, as if it's a crime for them to have gone out on a date with a rapist. "As manifested in the law of rape, the complainant may be a "true" victim if she was the object of a violent attack by a monstrous stranger rapist," Gruber wrote. "However, if she exercises any agency in the encounter, such as being on a date, she is disqualified from the category of innocent victim and is instead cast as the agent who precipitated date rape ...., wholly responsible for her mistakes." These are the whys. Not because too many men go to jail. Read the bolded parts again, Sam. She is pointing out that in a court of law, the woman's life is on trial. That violent rape crimes, which I said should be incarcerated, is on the decline. That date rape, the one you are arguing most with, is on the rise. And that is because, socially, its accepted as the "norm". What she is saying is that women are beating their heads against the walls because society still wants to blame the woman unless she ends up battered or dead in the process.

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:26:09 AM)
OK Tazzy- Recall Einstein's definition of crazy I posted earlier in this thread- that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.. Trying to incarcerate all the rapists hasn't worked. That's what Gruber is pointing out, and that what I've been pointing out. Here's Gruber's prescription- again... "Feminists can counteract the rape-permissive gender norms largely enforced by women instead of relentlessly focusing on the criminality of men," she said. "And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals." Sam

Snort -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:29:48 AM)
I was stunned by the new stats that are creating headlines. I discussed this with several women who I know well, and was even more stunned to find that almost HALF of them said they had been subjected to or narrowly avoided rape when they were in their teens or twenties. (and yes, we are old enough and close enough to have this kind of discussion) GAH! That leaves me with a knot in my stomach. My friends are reg'lar, got their shit together women who don't engage in "high risk asking for it bullshit" activities. Yeah, don't flame for that remark, but I always assumed (apparently dumbshittingly) that rape was more likely when you had two drunk people who were all over each other until a sudden "no" got ignored. Not an excuse, just figured it was higher risk. Now I just gotta figure otherwise. On the other side, I also know a couple of guys who have been accused of rape and battery by ex girlfriends as payback for the breakup. One was drinking beer in my living room at the precise moment this supposedly happened. Men aren't the only fucked up humans... So now I'm worried. I have a statistically significant tendency to attract friends who get in harms way more than the norm. What's wrong with me?

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 10:51:00 AM)
Hi Snort Well, if you really want to dig into this issue, here's where I'd start: Rape, Feminism, and the War on Crime Aya Gruber University of Colorado Law School Washington Law Review, Forthcoming U Iowa Legal Studies Research Paper No. 09-46 Abstract: Over the past several years, feminism has been increasingly associated with crime control and the incarceration of men. In apparent lock-step with the movement of the American penal system, feminists have advocated a host of reforms to strengthen state power to punish gender-based crimes. In the rape context, this effort has produced mixed results. Sexual assault laws that adopt prevailing views of criminality and victimhood, such as predator laws, enjoy great popularity. However, reforms that target the difficulties of date rape prosecutions and seek to counter gender norms, such as rape shield and affirmative consent laws, are controversial, sporadically-implemented, and empirically unsuccessful. After decades of using criminal law as the primary vehicle to address sexualized violence, the time is ripe for feminists to reassess continued involvement in rape reform. This Article cautions feminists to weigh carefully any purported benefits of reform against the considerable philosophical and practical costs of criminalization strategies before considering making further investments of time, resources, and intellect in rape reform. In advancing this caution, the Article systematically catalogues the existing intra-feminist critiques of rape reform and discusses reasons why these critiques have proven relatively ineffective at reversing the punitive course of reform. The Article then crafts a separate philosophical critique of pro-prosecution approaches by exposing the tension between the basic tenets of feminism and those animating the modern American penal state. Finally, it discusses why purported cultural and utilitarian benefits from rape reform cannot outweigh the destructive effect criminalization efforts have on feminist discourse and the feminist message. The Article concludes that feminists should begin the complicated process of disentangling feminism’s important anti-sexual coercion stance from a criminal justice system currently reflective of hierarchy and unable to produce social justice. Number of Pages in PDF File: 79 Keywords: Crime, Criminal Law, Rape, Rape Shield, Feminism, Criminology, Penal Theory I haven't read the paper yet- not sure I will. I certainly agree with the abstract above, although it's clear that a number of women on this board vehemently disagree. But good scholarship is often provocative since it's upsetting the applecart. Unlearning is an important part of learning- those of us in science have to deal with that in the course of our careers, but a lot of people are so threatened by unlearning that they prefer to remain in error. Sam

Arpig -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:01:43 AM)
quote: I haven't read the paper yet No shit.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:12:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Snort I was stunned by the new stats that are creating headlines. I discussed this with several women who I know well, and was even more stunned to find that almost HALF of them said they had been subjected to or narrowly avoided rape when they were in their teens or twenties. (and yes, we are old enough and close enough to have this kind of discussion) GAH! That leaves me with a knot in my stomach. My friends are reg'lar, got their shit together women who don't engage in "high risk asking for it bullshit" activities. Yeah, don't flame for that remark, but I always assumed (apparently dumbshittingly) that rape was more likely when you had two drunk people who were all over each other until a sudden "no" got ignored. Not an excuse, just figured it was higher risk. Now I just gotta figure otherwise. On the other side, I also know a couple of guys who have been accused of rape and battery by ex girlfriends as payback for the breakup. One was drinking beer in my living room at the precise moment this supposedly happened. Men aren't the only fucked up humans... So now I'm worried. I have a statistically significant tendency to attract friends who get in harms way more than the norm. What's wrong with me? No, you just know regular folks. I was sexually harassed on the job when I was young, but sometimes I feel like I "managed to avoid" being raped. And I can tell you that if I were to be raped, I would go to the ER and do a rape kit, and that is ALL. No way in hell would I have my life paraded on the judicial stage.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:33:18 AM)
quote: Trying to incarcerate all the rapists hasn't worked. Sam Did I Say Incarcerate All Rapists? Or Did I Say Incarcerate Certain Ones. You are coming across as wanting to send none of them to jail.

lemmony2 -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:36:19 AM)
Give it time. the New American Elizabeth draconian sex laws and adam walsh acts coupled with the patriot spying act will have everyone under some type of police state surveillance before they are done.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:37:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Hi Snort Well, if you really want to dig into this issue, here's where I'd start: Rape, Feminism, and the War on Crime Aya Gruber University of Colorado Law School Washington Law Review, Forthcoming U Iowa Legal Studies Research Paper No. 09-46 Abstract: Over the past several years, feminism has been increasingly associated with crime control and the incarceration of men. In apparent lock-step with the movement of the American penal system, feminists have advocated a host of reforms to strengthen state power to punish gender-based crimes. In the rape context, this effort has produced mixed results. Sexual assault laws that adopt prevailing views of criminality and victimhood, such as predator laws, enjoy great popularity. However, reforms that target the difficulties of date rape prosecutions and seek to counter gender norms, such as rape shield and affirmative consent laws, are controversial, sporadically-implemented, and empirically unsuccessful. After decades of using criminal law as the primary vehicle to address sexualized violence, the time is ripe for feminists to reassess continued involvement in rape reform. This Article cautions feminists to weigh carefully any purported benefits of reform against the considerable philosophical and practical costs of criminalization strategies before considering making further investments of time, resources, and intellect in rape reform. In advancing this caution, the Article systematically catalogues the existing intra-feminist critiques of rape reform and discusses reasons why these critiques have proven relatively ineffective at reversing the punitive course of reform. The Article then crafts a separate philosophical critique of pro-prosecution approaches by exposing the tension between the basic tenets of feminism and those animating the modern American penal state. Finally, it discusses why purported cultural and utilitarian benefits from rape reform cannot outweigh the destructive effect criminalization efforts have on feminist discourse and the feminist message. The Article concludes that feminists should begin the complicated process of disentangling feminism’s important anti-sexual coercion stance from a criminal justice system currently reflective of hierarchy and unable to produce social justice. Number of Pages in PDF File: 79 Keywords: Crime, Criminal Law, Rape, Rape Shield, Feminism, Criminology, Penal Theory I haven't read the paper yet- not sure I will. I certainly agree with the abstract above, although it's clear that a number of women on this board vehemently disagree. But good scholarship is often provocative since it's upsetting the applecart. Unlearning is an important part of learning- those of us in science have to deal with that in the course of our careers, but a lot of people are so threatened by unlearning that they prefer to remain in error. Sam And yet you give one woman's opinion in the face of all these women who have personal knowledge of the feelings and the attitudes resulting from rape. Are you really that narrow minded on this issue?

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:38:07 AM)
quote: Give it time. the New American Elizabeth draconian sex laws and adam walsh acts coupled with the patriot spying act will have everyone under some type of police state surveillance before they are done. Do you have any clue how many men dont report rape?

Snort -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 11:41:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I can tell you that if I were to be raped, I would go to the ER and do a rape kit, and that is ALL. No way in hell would I have my life paraded on the judicial stage. I understand that the decision would be tough. I really wouldn't like the event or my life or my sexual appetites made public record for friends and family and employers, etc. And I suspect I would find this pretty humiliating in general, having to relive it on stage. On the other hand, I wouldn't want someone to be encouraged to do it again because they got away with it. A hard decision to press charges. And one which many choose to avoid.

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