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RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:20:25 PM   
ScaryJello


Posts: 103
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline 		That would be the point of my post.  I do not think that military service should be a requirement for becoming the president of the United States of America.

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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:21:25 PM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		LOL, I just saw this thread, and as a draftee Vietnam vet I think it is hilarious.

I saw wonderful folks in the military. I also saw people I think very very little of.

Remember that one of the BIGGEST oxymoronic phrases is "Miltary intelligence".

I think Geo. Bush senior is the last president war vet. He has a carrier pilot flying Avenger bombers against Japan, was shot down by the Japanese, got picked up by a US sub, and made a war patrol with them before returning to the fleet. He was lucky. That he stepped forward to serve in time of danger and served best he could I think is good. Some may call that heroic, though I do not.

He was in serious danger though. Some other US fliers shot down in that area and captured are said to have ended up being eaten by the starving enemy, blockaded on little islands with no hope of supply.

I have NOT seen a candidate I liked and trusted get the nomination since I reached voting age, which was a week too late to vote in 1968. I had already been in the army for about 6 months by then.

I suspect we would do far better if we simply drafted our candidates for office from those registered to vote, and ALWAYS throw the incumbent out in the next election!

Many people have gone into military service to enhance their electability to public office. Abraham Lincoln did that, in the Blackhawk war of about 1832, and he was certainly not the only one.





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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:24:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Btw, Raiikin is confusing the deficit with the debt. Its a convenient trick.



The Clinton years showed the effects of a large tax increase that Clinton pushed through in his first year, and that Republicans incorrectly claim is the "largest tax increase in history." It fell almost exclusively on upper-income taxpayers. Clinton’s fiscal 1994 budget also contained some spending restraints. An equally if not more powerful influence was the booming economy and huge gains in the stock markets, the so-called dot-com bubble, which brought in hundreds of millions in unanticipated tax revenue from taxes on capital gains and rising salaries.

Clinton’s large budget surpluses also owe much to the Social Security tax on payrolls. Social Security taxes now bring in more than the cost of current benefits, and the "Social Security surplus" makes the total deficit or surplus figures look better than they would if Social Security wasn’t counted. But even if we remove Social Security from the equation, there was a surplus of $1.9 billion in fiscal 1999 and $86.4 billion in fiscal 2000. So any way you count it, the federal budget was balanced and the deficit was erased, if only for a while.

Update, Feb. 11: Some readers wrote to us saying we should have made clear the difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in a given year. The debt is the total amount the government owes at any given time. So the debt goes up in any given year by the amount of the deficit, or it decreases by the amount of any surplus. The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.

Other readers have noted a USA Today story stating that, under an alternative type of accounting, the final four years of the Clinton administration taken together would have shown a deficit. This is based on an annual document called the "Financial Report of the U.S. Government," which reports what the governments books would look like if kept on an accrual basis like those of most corporations, rather than the cash basis that the government has always used. The principal difference is that under accrual accounting the government would book immediately the costs of promises made to pay future benefits to government workers and Social Security and Medicare beneficiaries. But even under accrual accounting, the annual reports showed surpluses of $69.2 billion in fiscal 1998, $76.9 billion in fiscal 1999, and $46 billion for fiscal year 2000. So even if the government had been using that form of accounting the deficit would have been erased for those three years.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/10/2012 1:28:26 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:26:06 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I suspect we would do far better if we simply drafted our candidates for office from those registered to vote, and ALWAYS throw the incumbent out in the next election!


I have often wondered what shape we would be in as a country if everyone was restricted to a one term limit.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vield)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:27:17 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I was reading another thread about Ron Paul and Newt Gingrich and I was thinking that if presidential candidates were required to be military veterans maybe , just maybe we could by-pass the "deutch bag" factor.
What type of "honor" does someone like Newt Gingrich or Bill Clinton bring to the table never having served in uniform?
And, (I love this!) they're always throwing around the word, "leader" or "leadership" all the time!
Is being a little league coach considered "leadership?"
They don't realize that being president is a management job.
If you want real, fully involved, harsh leadership experience then join the military. That's where leaders come from.
Leaders are afraid too but they do their jobs sometimes under extreme conditions.
If you wanted to go into politics why wouldn't you want that experience behind you?
Wouldn't you trust a Master Seargeant in that job before someone like Bill Clinton or Barak Obama, Newt Gingrich et al?
What say you?


Leadership is a hard concept to explain to people. Teaching one to be a leader is even harder!

The bigger one's ego, the greater the folly to think one is more a leader and possesses unquestionable leadership skills. Most people can spot these types of individuals pretty quickly as the person does the exact opposite of the desire. Also people mix up 'leadership' with 'management'. So here is the business school textbook defination of 'management' and 'leadership':

A manager leads through using either encouragements (i.e. bonuses, promotions, wage increases, etc) or threats (i.e. being fired, demotions, shit jobs). Some can be enlightening and drive their workers to greater levels of success either directly or indirectly; while others are simply tyrants that care little of what happens to the employee as long as the manager looks good to his or her superiors.

A leader is one that inspires those around them to achieve a greater level of success than they thought was possible. Good leaders convey the vision of what needs to be accomplished to those around them; while bad leaders tend to fail at this concept. Good leaders understand that success depends on the type of individuals one is leading rather than using some gimmick (i.e., pay, being fired, promotions, etc) to gain success.

History is chalked full of military leaders that absolutely SUCKED when place into goverment. Just as every other profession when the individual switchs to a new career and doesnt 'catch on' and fails. Likewise, there are military folks that make a good transition from 'military officer' to 'civilian goverment offical'. But just having military training doesnt grant one 'leadership'. Being a leader is EARNED rather than given. Good leaders are often spoke highly of by those under their command. One good example was featured in the book "Band of Brothers" (which was also turned into a movie series of same name on HBO). In that unit, the men grew to respect their officer, Maj. Dick Winters, largely for what he did both in and out of combat.

I myself believe Mr. Obama is a good president. You of course, will disagree. That is because our two criteria for what makes a 'good president' are different. I didn't think Mr. Bush was a good president in that he failed to accomplish many tasks on 'his plate'. He wanted the metaphorical 'desert' while ignoring 'his greens'; and that costed America greatly during his administration and years proceeding it.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:40:52 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Raiikun and I had this discussion before. He and willbe kept insisting it was due to the trust funds. They insisted those funds were part of the Unified budget... they havent been since 1990.

Not entering that debate. Simply noting that the source he cited doesn't say what he claims.


Erm, yes it does.

Go to the U.S. Treasury website: http://www.treasury.gov/

Scroll to the "Bureaus" section and click on "Bureau of the Public Debt" which takes you to http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/

Scroll down to the section "The U.S. Public Debt" and click on "See the U.S. Public Debt to the Penny."

Check the years in question, and you can calculate these results from the data:
FY . . . .Ending. . . . . Debt . . . . . . . . . .Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion



Did you look at his link?

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04485sp.pdf

Figure 8. I will wait till you do.

He's not going to acknowledge his own site contradicts his claim. He's not even going to address it, just change the subject. It's what he always does.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 1:46:34 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Btw, Raiikin is confusing the deficit with the debt. Its a convenient trick.


No, I'm not, please stop lying.

It's a fact that the FY ending 1999 we had a National Debt of $5.656270 trillion.
It's a fact that the FY ending 2000 we had a National Debt of $5.674178 trillion.

These numbers were gathered through the Department of the Treasury's website, and simple math shows a $17.91 billion deficit for that year.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:02:17 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
He's not going to acknowledge his own site contradicts his claim. He's not even going to address it, just change the subject. It's what he always does.


And meanwhile, back in reality, my *actual* response is to explain step by step how to get the numbers that I derived from my source.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:04:09 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No, it's not. From the same "reality," you're ignoring the data, with no explanation other than you choose to ignore it.

You also don't understand the difference between the national debt and publicly held debt. I'm not holding out much hope.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:13:18 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, it's not. From the same "reality," you're ignoring the data, with no explanation other than you choose to ignore it.


Yes it is. I make a claim with a source. You claim my source doesn't support my claim. I demonstrate where the data is to support my claim. You're choosing to ignore it.

quote:


You also don't understand the difference between the national debt and publicly held debt. I'm not holding out much hope.


Now feel free to demonstrate where I displayed that lack of understanding.

(Hint, you've entirely made that up...back in reality, a detailed discussion detailing the publicly held debt, intra-governmental debt, and the total National Debt occured the last time this topic came up).

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 1/10/2012 2:14:45 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:21:25 PM   
DaNewAgeViking


Posts: 1009
Joined: 4/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


What type of "honor" does someone like Newt Gingrich or Bill Clinton bring to the table never having served in uniform?
Abraham Lincoln never served in uniform......



Actually he did briefly, as a junior militia officer in the Blackhawk war. His first attempt to issue an order to his troops earned him a loud "Go to Hell!". He was later court marshaled for 'gawky, unofficer-like conduct', and ordered to wear a wooden sword for a few days. He later made fun of his own military pretense during his Presidential campaign. And yet, when you look closely at the record of the Civil War, he clearly earned his place as the best US President of all time. He kept the Union together despite all the scheming of the Radical Republicans and the endless defeats inflicted by inept political generals, and tried his best to make a generous peace when it was ended. This country would be a lot different today if he hadn't been murdered by a right wing lunatic.

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RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:25:25 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

I make a claim with a source. You claim my source doesn't support my claim. I demonstrate where the data is to support my claim. You're choosing to ignore it.


Actually I specified the exact location, by link, figure number, and page number.

The data refutes your claim.

Sorry. Reality.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/10/2012 2:26:46 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:27:40 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sorry. Reality.



Reality is that the actual raw numbers agree with me, as I demonstrated.

"Both Democrats and Republicans are all running this year and next and saying surplus, surplus. Look what we have done. It is false. The actual figures show that from the beginning of the fiscal year until now we had to borrow $127,800,000,000."

- Democratic Senator Ernest Hollings, October 28, 1999

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:31:53 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No, they don't, as you continue to ignore. You just choose the numbers that seem to support your fantasy, ignoring the rest *from the same source* and without ANY explanation but to ignore them.

One shows public investment. The other shows the entire unified budget with all its components. Perhaps you aren't aware that we have business and government investment in addition to the consumers. More likely you don't want to be aware.

But if you're just going to jump up and down and shout "NO! MY Chart! Your chart doesn't exist!" and in answer to the explanation for yours just whine "We talked about this last time," then this is just your usual fingers in your ears dance.


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:34:32 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, they don't, as you continue to ignore. You just choose the numbers that seem to support your fantasy, ignoring the rest *from the same source* and without ANY explanation but to ignore them.



Yes, they do. I made the statement that the National Debt has gone up every year under Clinton. The National Debt includes the debt held by the public and intragovernmental debt. And I've demonstrated that the National Debt has, in fact, gone up every year under Clinton. All your dancing, distractions, and invented bullshit doesn't change that reality.

Regardless of how politicians play with the numbers, the current national debt reported by the Bureau of the Public Debt is what we owe. If, at the end of each year, we owe more than we did the previous year, politicians can call it a surplus all they want--but the fact remains that we owed more money than we did the previous year. Playing accounting and political games to call it a "surplus" doesn't change the fact that we're more in debt than we were the year before.



< Message edited by Raiikun -- 1/10/2012 2:37:09 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:37:15 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		My "invented bullshit" is from your source. In fact, it's even labeled "the entire unified budget with all its components" -- which you'd know if you bothered to look. Someone preached to you about spin, you parrot it. But you're ignoring your own source. Either there's another explanation, if you don't like the obvious one already given, or your own source contradicts itself, in which case, we'll have to find a more reliable one. That's simple logic, dude.

Sucks, I know. Reality does when in a fantasy.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/10/2012 2:40:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:42:56 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon.


I don't remember there being all the ridicule and jeering aimed at Gore's service in the technical branch in 2000 that there was at Kerry's purple heart in 2004, though. Gore's service (or otherwise) doesn't seem to have been quite the same issue for the Republicans.
Engineers didn't just build airstrips and barracks.


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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:43:15 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My "invented bullshit" is from your source.


No, the "invented bullshit" I was referring to had nothing to do with the source. You were making claims about my understanding of the public debt that was entirely invented and unsubstantiated.

quote:

Someone preached to you about spin, you parrot it.
A

nd yet I'm the one that's going to the source numbers themselves; the basic raw data and reporting precisely what they say. They show the National Debt going up every year.

Again:

It's a fact that the FY ending 1999 we had a National Debt of $5.656270 trillion. Raw data there, no spin.
It's a fact that the FY ending 2000 we had a National Debt of $5.674178 trillion. Raw data there as well, no spin.

See how the debt in 2000 is higher than it was in 1999? That's a comparison of the raw data, no spin.



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:45:01 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Now, if you want to take Tazzy's position that the intragovernmental debt shouldn't count in what we owe, that's an entirely different argument. But at least have the honesty to say that instead of lying that my source doesn't say what I said it does.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:48:50 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Sigh.

It's. Right. From. Your. Source. Dude.

It's. Even. Labeled. In. Both. Cases. Exactly. As. I. Explained.

You. Are. Ignoring. The. Data. That. Doesn't. Fit. Your. Willful. Misunderstanding.

You. Aren't. Even. Trying. To. Reconcile. The. Discrepancy. From. Your. Own. Source. Pretending. Instead. It. Doesn't. Exist.








(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 80
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