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RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:49:12 PM   
Lucylastic


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aaaah there it is

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(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:51:46 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sigh.



Sigh. You. Are. Making. All. Of. That. Up.

I am not ignoring it. We've discussed it in the past. I'm still trying to get you to stop ignoring that the data I claimed existed, does in fact exist.

Then we can move on to why the government has been spinning that data.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 1/10/2012 2:53:21 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:58:47 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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Right from your own source. I even point to the exact location, including the titles. Yup. Made it up. Uh-huh. OK. Sure. Whatever you say.



Now, if you REALLY want to look at real numbers, adjust for inflation, the way we'd compare anything else year to year. Then BOTH sets of numbers show the decline (the top one is in 2010 dollars).



See, you think that if I borrow $10,000 more dollars this year, and if I move $10,000 from one of my accounts to another one, then I'm worse off by $20,000. That my income increased $40,000 (debt as percentage of GDP) would still have you figuring I'm $20,000 in the whole. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying a $30,000 surplus while you're whining I'm confusing you with spin.



Best wishes to America's math teachers.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/10/2012 3:01:05 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 2:59:49 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Update, Feb. 11: Some readers wrote to us saying we should have made clear the difference between the federal deficit and the federal debt. A deficit occurs when the government takes in less money than it spends in a given year. The debt is the total amount the government owes at any given time. So the debt goes up in any given year by the amount of the deficit, or it decreases by the amount of any surplus. The debt the government owes to the public decreased for a while under Clinton, but the debt was by no means erased.

http://factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

Page 4.

This chart shows that the Government has progressed from an accrual deficit in fiscal 1998 to accrual surpluses
in fiscal 1999 and 2000. Revenue has steadily increased each year while Net Cost of U.S. Government Operations
experienced a decrease in fiscal 1999. The largest increase in revenue for fiscal 2000 was for individual income tax
and tax withholdings (an increase of $179.2 billion or 12.3 percent). The decrease in net cost for fiscal 1999 was
due primarily to a change in the interest rate assumptions for the veterans compensation and burial benefits payable
and its effect on net cost was a decrease of $204.8 billion. In fiscal 2000, there were further changes in the actuarial
and interest rate assumptions resulting in an increase in net cost and accrued liability for veterans benefits and
services of $62.5 billion.


Page 8

The excess of revenue over net cost figure (accrual basis) contained in these financial statements for fiscal
2000 is $46.0 billion. In fiscal 2000, there was a unified budget surplus (primarily on the cash basis) of $236.9
billion. The primary components of the difference that have been identified are increases in the liability for veteran
compensation and burial benefits, $62.5 billion; increases in the liability for civilian employee benefits, $55.3
billion; increases in the liability for military employee benefits, $39.5 billion; principal payments of pre-credit
reform loans, $24.1 billion; increases in environmental liabilities, $19.6 billion; and decreases in capitalized fixed
assets, $31.6 billion. For more information on the detailed reconciliation, see the Reconciliation of the Excess of
Revenue Over Net Cost to the Unified Budget Surplus in the Supplemental Information section.

Page 9

Revenue
Government revenue comes from two sources: nonexchange transactions and exchange transactions.
Nonexchange revenues arise primarily from exercise of the Government’s power to demand payments from the
public (e.g., taxes, duties, fines, and penalties) but also include donations. Nonexchange revenue is the U.S.
Government’s primary source of revenue and totaled $2,040.0 billion in fiscal 2000
. More than 95 percent of this
total came from tax receipts, with the remainder coming from customs duties and other miscellaneous receipts.
Exchange revenues aris e when a Government entity provides goods and services to the public or to another
Government entity for a price. Another term for exchange revenue is earned revenue. During fiscal 2000, the U.S.
Government earned $160.5 billion in exchange revenue. Of these revenues, $155.7 billion is offset against the gross
cost of the related functions to arrive at the function’s net cost. The U.S. Government also earned $4.8 billion that
was not offset against the cost of any function (e.g., royalties on the Outer Continental Shelf lands)
.
The following chart shows the components of revenue by major source.

Expenses by Function
The net cost of U.S. Government operations was $1,998.8 billion for fiscal 2000. Net cost represents the gross
cost of operations less related earned revenues. The Statement of Net Cost reflects the cost incurred to carry out the
national priorities identified by the President and the Congress. Costs are allocated to functions and subfunctions
based on accounting standards and, in some cases, may be allocated differently than the budget. The functions and
subfunctions used to accumulate costs associated with the national priorities are identified in the President’s budget
and described in detail in the Supplemental Information section of this Financial Report. The accompanying chart
presents the percentage of the net cost of U.S. Government operations by each of the U.S. Government’s major
functions.

Now, you keep harping on the 17.9 amount.


Page 103

First column of numbers... Beginning Balance September 30, 1999
Second column of numbers... Net Change During Fiscal 2000
Third set of numbers......... Ending Balance September 30, 2000

Marketable securities .......................................... 3,233.0 --- (240.2)--- 2,992.8--- 6.631%
Non-marketable securities ................................... 2,414.3 -----215.0---- 2,629.3--- 6.628%
Non-interest bearing debt .......................................... 9.0------ 43.1-------- 52.1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Treasury securities ......................................5,656.3 -------17.9---- 5,674.2

Page 12

Treasury Securities

Now that the Federal Government has achieved budget surpluses coupled with projections of continuing
surpluses, focus has started to shift to the impact of the surpluses on the Federal debt.

While we have had 3 consecutive years of budget surpluses, it is important to understand the composition of
budget surpluses, and the relationship that these excess funds have had on reducing or changing the composition of
the Federal debt. There are two components of Federal debt: debt held by the public and intragovernmental
holdings.

Debt held by the public includes all Federal debt held by individuals, corporations, State or local governments,
Federal Reserve System, foreign governments, and other entities outside of the U.S. Government. The types of
securities that are held by the public include, but are not limited to, Treasury Bills, Treasury Notes, Treasury Bonds,
U.S. Savings Bonds, State and Local Government Series securities, Foreign Series securities, and Domestic Series
securities.
Intragovernmental holdings include Government Account Series securities held by Government trust funds,
revolving funds, and special funds; Federal Financing Bank securities held by Government trust funds; and Treasury
securities and agency securities held by Government accounts. The laws establishing Government trust funds (such
as the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds) generally require the balances to be invested in special Treasury
debt securities
. Although intragovernmental holdings are used in the calculation of the Federal debt subject to the
statutory debt limit, intragovernmental transactions are eliminated in the consolidation process of preparing this
Financial Report since they are claims of one part of the Government against another part. However, they are
important to an understanding of total debt because, as the intragovernmental securities are redeemed, other sources
of funds will be identified to fund the redemptions.

Securities that represent Federal debt held by the public are primarily issued by the Treasury and include:
· Interest-bearing marketable securities (bills, notes, and bonds).
· Interest-bearing nonmarketable securities (foreign series, State and local government series, domestic series,
and savings bonds).
· Non interest-bearing debt (matured and other).

As of September 30, 2000, $5,591.6 billion of debt was subject to a statutory limit (31 United States Code
3101). That limit was $5,950 billion. The debt subject to the limit includes: Treasury Securities held by the public
and intragovernmental holdings, as well as Government guaranteed debt of Federal agencies.
Section 3111 of title 31, United States Code, authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to use money received
from the sale of an obligation and other money in the general fund of the Treasury to buy, redeem, or refund, at or
before maturity, outstanding bonds, notes, certificates of indebtedness, Treasury bills, or savings certificates of the
U.S. Government. During fiscal 2000, the Secretary of the Treasury authorized the redemption of $21.3 billion of
outstanding unmatured marketable Treasury securities at a premium of $5.5 billion. These early redemption
transactions are known as Treasury “buybacks.” The net change of the Federal debt securities held by the public
during fiscal 2000 includes $21.2 billion related to these buybacks.

http://fms.treas.gov/fr/00frusg/00frusg.pdf

In other words...The budget was balanced. Its at that point the Treasury has to do something with the surplus.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/10/2012 3:08:32 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:00:26 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
Or maybe I can try it a different way.

Your chart does not change the FACT that the Bureau of the Public Debt, through the Treasury Department's website, reports the National Debt going up every year during the Clinton years.

That was the assertion I made, and I've demonstrated how to see for yourself.

So your statement made here:

quote:

Simply noting that the source he cited doesn't say what he claims.


is provably wrong.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:02:34 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

See how the debt in 2000 is higher than it was in 1999? That's a comparison of the raw data, no spin.


Because the Treasury spent the money after the budget was balanced with surplus funds... as required by law.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:03:20 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
Your crying MY CHART MY CHART doesn't change that you are ignoring the data from your own source that contradicts your dance.

You have no explanation other than insisting on pretending that's not the case. You know..."doesn't change the FACT that" and all that....


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Right from your own source. I even point to the exact location, including the titles. Yup. Made it up. Uh-huh. OK. Sure. Whatever you say.



Now, if you REALLY want to look at real numbers, adjust for inflation, the way we'd compare anything else year to year. Then BOTH sets of numbers show the decline (the top one is in 2010 dollars).



See, you think that if I borrow $10,000 more dollars this year, and if I move $10,000 from one of my accounts to another one, then I'm worse off by $20,000. That my income increased $40,000 (debt as percentage of GDP) would still have you figuring I'm $20,000 in the whole. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying a $30,000 surplus while you're whining I'm confusing you with spin.




Best wishes to America's math teachers.



It's your head that's spinning.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/10/2012 3:06:23 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:06:10 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

Musicmystery

See, you think that if I borrow $10,000 more dollars this year, and if I move $10,000 from one of my accounts to another one, then I'm worse off by $20,000.


Wrong, that's a strawman. That is nothing like what I think.

You really oughtta try asking what someone thinks before making it up off the top of your head; you've been wrong every single time.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:07:22 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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You don't think anything. You just keep repeating, "No! My Chart!"

Been asking you for pages. "No! My Chart!" No reconciliation of the data, no explanation. "No! My Chart!"

Perhaps you've heard of analogy. Very different from straw man fallacy. And in this case, it illustrates your error on insisting on looking at just a single component, when even your own source points this out.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/10/2012 3:09:37 PM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:10:04 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Your chart does not change the FACT that the Bureau of the Public Debt, through the Treasury Department's website, reports the National Debt going up every year during the Clinton years.


Again... IT WENT UP BECAUSE THE TREASURY HAD TO SPEND THE SURPLUS

quote:

The net change of the Federal debt securities held by the public
during fiscal 2000 includes $21.2 billion related to these buybacks.


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/10/2012 3:11:24 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:10:06 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You don't think anything. You just keep repeating, "No! My Chart!"


So when the strawman is pointed out, you go with an ad hominem, great job!

Meanwhile, back in reality, what I *actually* think goes more like this:

It's like earning $30k in a year and only having $29k in expenses--so you have a $1000 surplus. Then you realize you have some funds loaned to you for expenses that aren't due back for many years, so to celebrate, you then go out and spend $2000 on a new LCD TV. All the sudden you earned $30k and spent $31k and what originally looked like a $1000 surplus is now a $1000 deficit and you're further in debt.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:12:14 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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Actually, I'm reporting on what you're doing, not ad hominem at all. Look that your posts.

And how about the inflation point? You don't want to look at the data in that light either, though it's how we'd compare any other costs year to year.

Let alone as a percentage of GDP. Debt relative to income is also an important factor.

"No! My Chart!"

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:14:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
I gave him the proof of his fit over 17.9 billion. Of course he wont look at it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:20:18 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Actually, I'm reporting on what you're doing, not ad hominem at all. Look that your posts.


Actually the ad hominem was "You don't think anything."

And, my posts were in direct response to you trying to claim that my data didn't exist. I figured maybe it was drilled into your head enough you'd finally get it, and since you've moved on, it looks like it worked.

quote:

And how about the inflation point? You don't want to look at the data in that light either, though it's how we'd compare any other costs year to year.


But then you go and invent ANOTHER strawman. So, back to reality yet again:

Adjusting the national debt for inflation is valid for comparing the debt load of the federal government but it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the federal government had a surplus a given year. If you spend more than you take in in a given year, you have a deficit even if your relative debt load went down because of inflation. Explained numerically, let's say you owe $50,000, earn $30,000, and spend $31,000 (debt load=50,000/30,000=167%)--that leaves you with a deficit of $1000 so that the following year you owe $51,000. The next year inflation is 5% so you now earn $31,500 and spend $32,550 with a deficit of $1,050. $31,500 in earnings with a $51,000 debt is a 162% debt load--so your relative debt load went down thanks entirely to inflation but you still had a deficit of $1,050 that year and your debt continued to grow.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:21:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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For fiscal 2000, the unified budget reported a surplus of $236.9 billion. For the same period, the Financial
Report of the United States Government reports an excess of revenue over cost of $46.0 billion.
The difference
between these two amounts occurs because they are prepared primarily on different measurement bases to carry out
their different objectives.

The Financial Report of the United States Government is based on Generally Accepted Accounting Principles
(GAAP). Thus, expenses and exchange revenue generally are recognized when the events giving rise to the
transactions occur rather than when the cash is received or paid. Non-exchange revenues are recognized on a
modified cash basis of accounting.


Explain that away.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:21:42 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I gave him the proof of his fit over 17.9 billion. Of course he wont look at it.


No, I've actually covered that before.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:24:28 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
You have? Where? What does the 17.9 billion represent?

Total Treasury securities ................................ 5,656.3-- 17.9--- 5,674.2

Per your chart... and mine... what does that 17.9 reflect?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/10/2012 3:26:55 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:26:13 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You have? Where?


We covered a lot of this the last time we hashed this out. :p

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:27:28 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Again, if we have been over this, what does that 17.9 reflect?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Should a presidential candidate be required to be a... - 1/10/2012 3:29:47 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
I've demonstrated that you take the national debts between 1999 and 2000, 17.9 billion is how much the overall National Debt increased in that year.

Even if that debt came from money borrowed from the Social Security and other trust funds.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 100
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