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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:04:04 PM

BambiBoi

Posts: 461
Joined: 8/10/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

... You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it...

This is exactly what led me to realize that I am a service top, not a dominant. Now I'm attracted to dominants who are certain they like something when they ask for it, because they ask for what they want. There's no "I hope they like this...." If they (my prospective dominant) didn't like it, they wouldn't request it.

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(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 21

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:07:43 PM

Dal805

Posts: 1
Joined: 8/13/2012
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This seems like such an odd question, not in my opinion grounded in reality. I tried to get an understanding of where you were coming from with this question by reading your profile which didn’t help it states:

Not bothering with writing a profile text at this point, sorry pal.
Try to read my posts maybe?

So I am forced to make some assumptions you are 22 (according to your profile) and have never had a 24/7 power exchange relationship but have an interest and are trying to get your head around some of these concepts.

If that’s not you then maybe you need to write a profile.

If that is you then here is what I can tell you about the D/s and M/s relationships that I have been involved in. A dominant assumes full responsibility for their submissive. That is to say I assume full responsibility for the emotional, physical and mental wellbeing of a slave or submissive in a 24/7 power exchange with me.

If I require them to do something that damages them emotionally I have failed as a Master.

If I require them to do something they do not like but it does them no harm, that is my prerogative.

If I want them to enjoy a specific task I give them, I either have to select a submissive that likes that type of task, help them find it within themselves to like that task perhaps with training or by building trust in the relationship.

Some of us are physical sadists, some are mental sadists, and some are both. Some will get off on their sub not liking a task, some will get off only if the sub enjoys their service and others of us don’t care if they like it or not as long as it gets done and it doesn’t damage the property.

< Message edited by Dal805 -- 8/15/2012 4:10:03 PM >

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 22

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:08:32 PM

JanahX

Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Because they want to submit and do everything their Doms asks of them and like it so their Dom is happy.

Just because someone tells you to do something doesnt mean that you like it - and them liking it has no bearing on whether or not you like it or not. From what I understand people have access to only their experiences and their emotional response to stimuli.

Just because someone wants to whip me with a single tail - In no way shape or form and I going to like it. Whether they like it or not. And if that person gets off on me being miserable - its time for me to go bye bye.

< Message edited by JanahX -- 8/15/2012 4:13:29 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:39:18 PM

Karnikula

Posts: 55
Joined: 7/21/2012
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Sorry guys for creating this much confusion, I was mixing up issues and changing my mind about some things half way in between and actually was not so sure anymore what I really wanted to ask in the end ...

But the discussion has helped putting my thoughts into order. And some of the answers (especially pins&needles (or was it needles&pins?)) got very straight to the point, it helped me understand the actual problem I was thinking about clearer.

(And yes I'm (almost) 22 and have not been in a 24/7 M/s relationship yet but that's in weak relation to my knowledge about bdsm, especially D/s and M/s relationships.)

Edit: I'll add more context the next time I open a topic / discussion.

I wonder what my own experience/knowledge has to do with the problem/question at hand anways.
I didn't write this question to display what I think about the Issue or how much I know about D/s.

I find it pretty premature to judge me based on how I phrase/lead a topic I'd like to discuss.

< Message edited by Karnikula -- 8/15/2012 4:42:53 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:39:18 PM

subbingincalif

Posts: 24
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Another topic fetched from Carolyn (I suppose it IS the Carolyn you know).

Situation:

Dom tells sub to do X.
Sub doesn't like doing X.
Sub does as told but is obviously unhappy about it.
You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it.

Do you decide not to order sub to do X, be disappointed and have your sub be unhappy about not being pleasing ? (lose-lose)

How do you fix this problem?

Tell your sub to ACT as if enjoying? (tie-tie)
Try to enjoy X without your sub enjoying it? (tie-tie)

Can there be a win-win situation?

I agree with another comment that the way you are framing the question shows little understanding of sub-dom dynamics (no offense, but it is what it is).

It's hard to answer in a vacuum without knowing the specific activity.

But in a nutshell, if this is happening all the time for all sorts of activities, you are probably not compatible.

If it's happening now and then, it's human. Then it depends. You might have not have the sub do it. You might tell the sub to not whine demonstrably but accept he's not enjoying himself. Very few people have the ability to do something they dislike and make it seem like they are enjoying themselves.

Ultimately, a sub-dom relationship, like any relationship. won't sustain if it's not win-win. But that doesn't mean every single activity has to be a win-win. In fact, the occasional win-lose is usually an inherent part of a sub-dom relationship

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 25

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:43:04 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
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When i met my late dom, he told me in situations like that, i was allowed to say"if it pleases you Sir" to indicate my dislike of what was going on. At that point he could decided to proceed or stop. Most of the time he proceeded, and that was ok, because that was the deal that i bought into. Did the specific instance make me happy? - no, but if he had changed because of what i was expressing he wouldn't have been the dom that i loved.

So, in the larger picture, him doing what he wanted made us both very happy. And for us, the larger picture was what counted.

(in reply to JanahX)

Post #: 26

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:46:22 PM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

No, the Dom in this scenario is just answering a question, not making a request. (actually I phrased that wrong, I'll fix that now)

In that case the sub needs adjust her expectations of being able to be unrealistically perfect.
She's unhappy because she isn't capable of doing something she isn't capable of doing... that's silly... grown ups should realize that wanting something does not equal getting it or being able to do it.

Her being unhappy because she isn't able to feel what he would like her to feel is as stupid as her being unhappy because she doesn't have six-pack abs when she never bothers to do any sit-ups.
If she want to feel like he wants her to feel, she needs to work on that... if she wants six-pack abs, she needs to work on that.

Being unhappy because she doesn't have something she didn't try to have is childish and stupid, not to mention counter-productive.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 27

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:47:40 PM

Karnikula

Posts: 55
Joined: 7/21/2012
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Actually "You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it." is not quite right, the "appears to" shouldn't be there.

The (for me personally now resolved) problem was about how to help a sub get over not being the perfect sub who always is the most pleasing company ever.
Which is shown in the conflict of the dom & subs desire vs. reality of things. It's easier for the sub (rather than the dom) to identify themselves as the issue in that case.

_____________________________

People are like puzzle pieces that are puzzles.

(in reply to subbingincalif)

Post #: 28

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:51:13 PM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Submission is easy when it's something that you like or want to do. Real submission starts when you get to the things you don't like or don't want to do.

Amen to that!
luci

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(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 29

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 4:55:59 PM

poise

Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your
freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing
not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's
currently not possible with the two of them. What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the
emotional intimacy of the moment.

The Dom needs to modify their expectations.
The sub asked "what do you want me to do" and the Dom replied "this is what I want you to feel".

If he wants her to *do* something, he needs to tell her what to do "kneel, bow and say the following".
If he wants her to *feel* "relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable" then he needs to create
that feeling in her, or direct her on how to create that feeling in herself.

The problem with your scenario isn't a conflict between "being pleasing" and "being transparent" but a conflict
between the Dom's desires/expectations and reality.

This x 100. The Goddess of Logic hath spoketh!

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When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 30

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:03:41 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Another topic fetched from Carolyn (I suppose it IS the Carolyn you know).

Situation:

Dom tells sub to do X.
Sub doesn't like doing X.
Sub does as told but is obviously unhappy about it.
You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it.

Do you decide not to order sub to do X, be disappointed and have your sub be unhappy about not being pleasing ? (lose-lose)

How do you fix this problem?

Tell your sub to ACT as if enjoying? (tie-tie)
Try to enjoy X without your sub enjoying it? (tie-tie)

Can there be a win-win situation?

There are two kinds of sub.

A kind of sub that genuining enjoy the submission part, this means that she will enjoy submitting to you EVEN if you make her do things she does not want to do. Like I knew a sub who hates pain, but takes the pain because she enjoys the whole submission process of it, being forced to do take or do something she hates, that's literally her main kink. Her dom knows she hates pain but inflicts pain on her even more, his sadistic, she's very submissive, they work for each other.

On the other hand..., and I think nowadays, the word "bottom" is used, sounds like the sub you are with. She will not do anything happily unless it's mutually enjoyable. MUTUALLY ENJOYABLE is of huge importance to her. Yet she's somewhat submissive because she doesn't want to top. I believe she will take at least the basic of kneeling and being humiliated by you right?

I personally don't believe in the "submission isn't suppose to be easy" part.

If one doesn't enjoy it, then why do it? If both of your kinks don't match, it will be quite a unhappy relationship.
I believe the relationship works when submission is easy.
There are even situations the other way round where the dom is too nice for a sub. Especially when you have a sub who loves being made to do what she hates doing, heard of these leaving their doms for being too nice, too easy, too lenient. They did not feel controlled and were unsatisfied.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/15/2012 5:05:45 PM >

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 31

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:10:27 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Okay an example how this *can* play out (there's different variations):

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) What I'd like to happen most right now is for you to: Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.

EDIT: the part what the dom answers.

I gotta wonder why he would be telling her to do something he knows she can't do. I'd be wondering a couple of things.
Here's how it would look (actually sound) in my head:

1. Does he see something in me that I don't? Can I actually do this? I must be able to do this if he believes it because I have seen that he is worthy of my following him. Ok. While this is really tough, I'll still do it BECAUSE I TRUST HIM.

or

2. Why is he asking me to do something he knows will harm me? Ok. Let me completely shut down and just do it. (shut down). *then I do it, and then I leave the relationship.*

He'd darn well better know which scenario will play out, I like to think I don't pick fools. I also like to think I'm generally not a fool myself. (I am at times of course, but hopefully GENERALLY I'm not).

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 8/15/2012 5:43:31 PM >

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(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 32

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:18:14 PM

poise

Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX
Who the fuck is Carolyn? And who are you addressing that you are indicating that knows her?

He referred to Carolyn as the author in one of his previous posts, and several responded by
saying they knew the Carolyn he was referencing. If that helps any. :)
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4194043/mpage_1/tm.htm

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Post #: 33

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:41:01 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Okay an example how this *can* play out (there's different variations):

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) What I'd like to happen most right now is for you to: Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.

EDIT: the part what the dom answers.

I would do exactly what he says and well...I do this quite often. The kneeling thing, every single day. And if I couldn't say it to him I would wonder why I would be calling him Master and I wouldn't be his slave yet. It's that simple.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 34

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:41:28 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Using fast reply.

Why can't there be both?

LP: I want you to do X, boy.

boy: I do not want to do X, Mistress.

LP: The task is not a violation of your hard limits and will please Me.

boy: Yes, Mistress.

(The boy then does the task because he submits to My will and that means he won't always like everything, but does so with a smile on his face because he knows he is pleasing Me.)

Seems like a win-win to Me.

_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 35

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:46:12 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Okay an example how this *can* play out (there's different variations):

Sub: What would you like me to do most right now, absolute honesty.
Dom: (seriously this could be just about anything) What I'd like to happen most right now is for you to: Kneel in front of me, bow down and relish in your freedom to be safely vulnerable, then say "I'm yours, Master."
Sub: But you know I can't do that yet but I want very much for you to have that, I feel very unpleasing not being able to do that and I don't think I'll ever be able to do this.

^ In this scenario the Dom genuinenly desires for such an event to take place, as does the sub, but it's currently not possible with the two of them.
What's the SHORT TERM approach to this as to not ruin the emotional intimacy of the moment.

EDIT: the part what the dom answers.

With my x-dom, we had a similar scenerio like this, not exactly the same, because I do think I'm his and I love kneeling, but there were other questions he was asking me or things he wanted me to say that I felt was not honest and true from my heart, and it would be lying for me to say them.

So I double checked with him if his okay with me saying it even though it's lying.

He said okay, he gave me permission to lie, then I lie. Play goes on, both happily carry on.

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 36

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:50:28 PM

Karnikula

Posts: 55
Joined: 7/21/2012
Status: offline

Ah yes but that's with a doable taks.

What about a non-doable task that doesn't violate hard limits such as "feeling a certain way about something".
That obviously takes time to realize, but what do you do until then? What if the sub thinks she can never feel that way ?

What if the sub thinks that taking on another sub instead would be a better idea to realize that thing? (contrary to what the dom thinks).

_____________________________

People are like puzzle pieces that are puzzles.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 37

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 5:51:49 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

If Master told me to say something that I have a difficult time saying, I would simply explain it to him and at that point he would explain it to me in a way that I could understand and why he is telling me to say it and being that he is a very intelligent man and has explained it in a way that makes sense, I would say it happily, knowing his explanation is correct and that I trust him.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 38

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 6:09:46 PM

subbingincalif

Posts: 24
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Actually "You only enjoy X if the sub appears to enjoy it." is not quite right, the "appears to" shouldn't be there.

The (for me personally now resolved) problem was about how to help a sub get over not being the perfect sub who always is the most pleasing company ever.
Which is shown in the conflict of the dom & subs desire vs. reality of things. It's easier for the sub (rather than the dom) to identify themselves as the issue in that case.

It really isn't much of an issue.

One thing you can tell the sub is it's OK if the sub doesn't enjoy the activity, as long as they just do it with a minimum of whining and complaining (assuming it's not a limit). It can be liberating for some subs to realize they aren't expected to enjoy some things.

For the dom, it's often simply a matter of accepting that a sub is a human being not a machine. Sometimes a sub won't enjoy stuff. Sometimes a sub will complain. Sometimes a sub will say flat-out they aren't in a mood to do something and that's that. All that can vary depending on the nature of the relationship. (I know you started talking off about 24-7 but that's pretty uncommon. You'll probably get a dispropotionately high number of 24-7ers on chat forums like this, but overall the percentage of people involved in BDSM who engage in or want 24-7 is very small.)

This idea of a sub being frustrated by not being "perfect" and "not being the most pleasing company ever" is simply the sub being unrealistic and the dom having poor communication skills. Because no one in any kind of relationship can live under that kind of expectation/pressure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

Ah yes but that's with a doable taks.

What about a non-doable task that doesn't violate hard limits such as "feeling a certain way about something".
That obviously takes time to realize, but what do you do until then? What if the sub thinks she can never feel that way ?

What if the sub thinks that taking on another sub instead would be a better idea to realize that thing? (contrary to what the dom thinks).

That's pretty simple too. The problem as you're describing it seems to be the dom have unrealistic expectations. If someone hates strawberry ice cream, they might eat it to please you but it's unlikely they'll ever like it. So if you continue command them to like it for real you are simply setting everyone up for failure. Sure, you can stretch limits and modify behaviors but if a sub continually tells you she doesn't think she will ever feel that way, she's probably right. And her telling you to find another sub is probably a warning flare that you are beginning to test her patience with unreasonable demands.

< Message edited by subbingincalif -- 8/15/2012 6:15:57 PM >

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 39

RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 6:19:12 PM

UllrsIshtar

Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

What about a non-doable task that doesn't violate hard limits such as "feeling a certain way about something".

If it's a non-doable task, both parties need to be mature enough to realize that non-doable task are... well... non-doable.

Either of them being unhappy about a non-doable task not being done is silly, childish and immature.

If they want a currently non-doable task to be doable in the future, they both need to work towards making that happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

That obviously takes time to realize, but what do you do until then?

You take gratification in the fact that you are working towards making a task become doable.

Again, if you want six-pack abs, you need to work out.
Choosing to not work out is not a a reason to be unhappy, even if you want six-pack abs.
Working out should make you happy, because you are working towards having the six-pack abs you want, even if you currently don't have them yet.

If you do not achieve gratification from working towards your goals, or if not being able to do the impossible makes you unhappy, something is significantly fucked up in your head, and you need therapeutic help of the sort that a D/s relationship cannot provide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

What if the sub thinks she can never feel that way ?

Both the Dom and sub need to decide if it's important to them that the sub may potentially never feel this way.

If their relationship is more important to them than the sub achieving feeling X they need to just accept that she may not be able to ever do it, and decide whether or not they even want to bother with trying to work towards.
If the X they want her to feel is more important than their relationship, they need to decide whether or not it's even worth it to them to try and work towards X, or if they should break up right now, and find somebody more compatible to both of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karnikula

What if the sub thinks that taking on another sub instead would be a better idea to realize that thing? (contrary to what the dom thinks).

If they both believe opposite things are necessary to make their relationship work, they need to decide who's path they are going to try to follow, and whether or not it even makes sense to try and follow any path, or they should breakup and find somebody more compatible instead.

In D/s relationship, it seems most traditional that the sub follows the Doms path, instead of the other way around.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/15/2012 6:22:29 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Karnikula)

Post #: 40

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