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RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 2:26:17 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska
I'm the kind of person who wants to talk about EVERYTHING. I've found my biggest communication struggle is when the dominant feels like things have been explained sufficiently enough and he doesn't want to discuss it anymore but I'm still going over it in my head. I sometimes wonder if thats just a guy thing or if maybe I'm simply choosing the wrong dominants or do I just talk too much?

A) Nearly every single submissive when they first start out is completely impatient. in two years they either learn patience or they don't call themselves a submissive anymore.

B) Nearly every single submissive when they first start out is insecure about who they are in the scene and overthinks EVERYTHING. In two years they either have come to a place of security or they don't.

The answer to your question? Likely both- you are insecure and have problems which cause you to constantly need external reinforcement, AND you likely pick doms that are harsh and not able to handle your special needs.

< hijack>

LA,

Do you need a hug or did someone pee in your cheerios this morning?..... that was rather harsh and so have a few of your other posts today been as well.... *gives you a chocolate lolli and some midol n runs the fuck away*

Really? I rather liked it and was working on a reply to her post. I've noticed a difference in myself (in spite of not having a Dom) regarding my submissiveness and how I handle impatience. I'm thinking she's right; subs are likely to realize, as time goes on, what it IS that is submissiveness is...and take it or leave it. No?

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)

Post #: 21

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 2:27:57 PM

Submotive

Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline

Ah Bearlee - saying NO would not work with my Master. If i am unable to fulfill the command and have a legitimate reason i discuss it with Him, as well as seek something else to please Him or offer something. Just NO or worse, "hell no" unless i was being very very playful would not be received well at all and would make Him question why i think i'm submissive.

Now i'm not above attempting to get out of something i'm not thrilled to do, but He's on to me and so His response is typically - tough shit - I want it, You'll do it or else. LOL - and does that make this girl melt? You betcha!

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(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 22

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 2:36:17 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

I'm a special needs pet ... lol

But then...aren't they all?

You may or may not have meant this humorously and I apologize if I offend but it hit my funny bone.

(in reply to kiska)

Post #: 23

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 2:39:37 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

Good for you, girl!

(in reply to Submotive)

Post #: 24

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 2:40:53 PM

kiska

Posts: 160
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

I'm a special needs pet ... lol

But then...aren't they all?

You may or may not have meant this humorously and I apologize if I offend but it hit my funny bone.

I thought it was cute! I'm a special needs pet ... Makes me think of all the blind, deaf, three legged, arthritic, traumatized pets I've owned over the past 10 years and I can't help but smile. I get to be one too!

But you're right, every submissive has his or her own set of special needs.

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I speak my mind because it hurts to bite my tongue ...

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Post #: 25

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 2:44:01 PM

Reflectivesoul

Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska
I'm the kind of person who wants to talk about EVERYTHING. I've found my biggest communication struggle is when the dominant feels like things have been explained sufficiently enough and he doesn't want to discuss it anymore but I'm still going over it in my head. I sometimes wonder if thats just a guy thing or if maybe I'm simply choosing the wrong dominants or do I just talk too much?

A) Nearly every single submissive when they first start out is completely impatient. in two years they either learn patience or they don't call themselves a submissive anymore.

B) Nearly every single submissive when they first start out is insecure about who they are in the scene and overthinks EVERYTHING. In two years they either have come to a place of security or they don't.

The answer to your question? Likely both- you are insecure and have problems which cause you to constantly need external reinforcement, AND you likely pick doms that are harsh and not able to handle your special needs.

< hijack>

LA,

Do you need a hug or did someone pee in your cheerios this morning?..... that was rather harsh and so have a few of your other posts today been as well.... *gives you a chocolate lolli and some midol n runs the fuck away*

Really? I rather liked it and was working on a reply to her post. I've noticed a difference in myself (in spite of not having a Dom) regarding my submissiveness and how I handle impatience. I'm thinking she's right; subs are likely to realize, as time goes on, what it IS that is submissiveness is...and take it or leave it. No?

oh bearlee I wasnt referring to that part of the post....

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(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 26

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 3:17:21 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

Dupe

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 6/15/2006 3:32:52 PM >

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Post #: 27

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 3:19:18 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

Hmmmmm......I scream "No!" all the time. He just ignores it.

In all seriousness, I don't think I've ever said just "No". I know that I've said no when asked a direct question. I've brought up anything that I think may not be a good idea. But, I can't ever remember refusing a direct order.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 6/15/2006 3:33:16 PM >

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 28

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 4:28:21 PM

OedipusRexIt

Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline

As with all aspects of bdsm, sexuality, and life in general, I am fascinated whenever someone states "this is the way it is done"

This is the way it is done - by you.

It's a big world full of people who don't do it at all as you do, and consider themselves to be doing it "right".

If I had a partner that I cared about, and it wasn't just "roll play" (sic, snicker) then I would be more patient than the OP suggests. If I had a committed partner who objected, I would take the objection seriously and re-consider where our communication might have gone afoul.

I know the uber-dommy thing to say is "you're outta here". Do whatever you do however you like, but it isn't any more the "right way" than anything else.

_____________________________

"My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die..."

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

Post #: 29

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 4:46:58 PM

trippingdaisy

Posts: 113
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

I'm the kind of person who wants to talk about EVERYTHING. I've found my biggest communication struggle is when the dominant feels like things have been explained sufficiently enough and he doesn't want to discuss it anymore but I'm still going over it in my head. I sometimes wonder if thats just a guy thing or if maybe I'm simply choosing the wrong dominants or do I just talk too much?

i think it may just be somewhat of a guy thing. :) The difference with my Master, though...is that He's been with me through the really rough times. The diagnosis of DID, the hospitalization, whatnot. i'm much much better now, but He learned right along with me. He had the option of staying with me through it, or not...and when He chose to stay with me, then honestly? He needed to be able to listen and understand, in case an episode came on. He wasn't always so good at listening. lol

quote:

Original: LuckyAlbatross

A) Nearly every single submissive when they first start out is completely impatient. in two years they either learn patience or they don't call themselves a submissive anymore.

Agreed.

quote:

B) Nearly every single submissive when they first start out is insecure about who they are in the scene and overthinks EVERYTHING. In two years they either have come to a place of security or they don't.

The answer to your question? Likely both- you are insecure and have problems which cause you to constantly need external reinforcement, AND you likely pick doms that are harsh and not able to handle your special needs.

This last part, i disagree with.

DID, or dissociative identity disorder, used to be known as Multiple Personality Disorder.

This disorder requires a high level of communication, moreso than most D/s relationships. This doesn't have anything to do with the 'scene' or being insecure. It has everything to do with yes, being 'special needs'. She very well may choose Doms that aren't able to handle things like that. That part i agree with wholeheartedly, because it takes a very special man, Dom or not, to be able to do it.

The 'special needs' and the need for communication doesn't mean that she, or myself for that matter, is in need of external reinforcement. It is quite reasonable that she be able to talk out her feelings, especially since bottling it up can lead to severe dissociation, and a DID episode, which is never, ever fun. The Dom, if there is not sufficient communication, will not be aware of what triggers a dissociative episode, and will suddenly be surprised with someone who is definitly not 'us'.

i know you may have meant well, and what you said is very, very true for most people. But when there are disorders like DID involved, while it may look like it's an over-needy sub, in reality it's necessary to pay close attention to us, so episodes can be avoided. It's much like someone with epilepsy...you wouldn't show them a seizure-causing animation, would you? :) It's risk assessment and control, nothing more...though it might seem like way too much work for the average Joe.

(in reply to kiska)

Post #: 30

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 5:10:04 PM

kiska

Posts: 160
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

daisy, I'd love the opportunity to discuss with you on the other side ... I've never met anyone else who was dealing with the same things I am and you seem so much better at articulating these things (than me) ...

When I dissociate you can either end up dealing with a 6 yr old child or something more like a living statue ... The thing is, the real me remembers every moment of these episodes. Its like I'm there but I'm just watching and listening. So talking about it afterwards is helpful for me because I learn to identify what triggered it, what I was feeling leading up to that point and how to avoid or deal with those feelings in a more constructive manner. It helps for when I do talk to a professional about it because I'm not wasting time trying to formulate my thoughts. I already have them in order.

I've learned that just because I tell a dominant that I have this problem and that this can happen doesn't mean that he's going to have any idea how to deal with it when it does. Most dominants tend to either run away from a submissive with my kind of problems or they get this whole hero complex and they want to save me and fix me. I don't expect my dominant to save me or fix me. He's supposed to be my lover, not my doctor. I do expect him to try to learn about whats happening to me and I do expect him to make every effort to prepare himself and if he can't deal with it, then just be honest with me. I won't think less of him because of it.

I've learned that I tend to rush into things. When it feels right I just go with it. I need to slow down ... I need to stand firm even when the dominant is pushing for more to make sure he understands. Its a difficult thing to do ... My very nature tends more towards surrendering control and going with the flow rather than trying to hold back.

I really liked your comparison to epilepsy. I've been told so many times over the past year to just get over it, deal with it, let it go ... I get so frustrated because I know if I had a physical limitation I wouldn't be told to just get over it. I don't think its unreasonable to expect the person who wants to take control and responsibility over me to learn about how to take care of me, how to keep me safe ... Risk assessment and control is a perfect way to put it, in my opinion. Although, yeah, it is A LOT of work for the average Joe.

Wow, have we totally hijacked this thread or what? lol

_____________________________

I speak my mind because it hurts to bite my tongue ...

(in reply to trippingdaisy)

Post #: 31

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 5:13:59 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

The person I am seeing has been teaching women to say "No!" for a few years. He would expect me to say it if I felt I needed to. I wouldn't say it just to be contrary, only if I felt like I could not stand something, as in using a safeword.

I would have a hard time saying no to him because I just do not like to, but to say I never would? Well our situation is new so I couldnt say that. I am not afraid to use the word no with ANYONE. He is probably a rare dom in that since he teaches women to say it he would expect me to also if my boundaries had been reached or breeched. He is so respectful in establishing our dynamic slowly that I cannot see myself needing to use the word with him.

But this is just me, and others have different views

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/15/2006 5:21:04 PM >

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(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 32

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 5:14:15 PM

NINASHARP

Posts: 295
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: NJ/NYC
Status: offline

Good topic Bearlee,

I have a rule about the word No. I don't like it, so I require mine not to say it to me. Now this is just how I do it, not that it is the one true way or anything.

What I insist on, since I don't like to hear the word No, is "Only if it pleases you, Mistress". I might teasingly ask a specific question that would respectably require a "No" answer, like "Do you eat shit?, or "Do you suck your own cock?", and it usually is in play and testing for fun. If ever I get the answer "No!" instead of "Only if it pleases you", I will give one warning, after that an appropriate punishment will be given. Of course there is always an exception to my No saying No rule, that doesn't warrent a scolding, but even then I do give a reminder and say something like, Did you just tell me NO?

If its something of a more serious discussion, and I get the, "Only if it please you", then I back it up and we talk about why or why not. I'm not that unrealistic about things.

Just don't like to hear the word "No".

Nina

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 33

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 5:44:42 PM

trippingdaisy

Posts: 113
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

kiska, i'll send you a message. :) So we stop hijacking.

Sorry everyone!

(in reply to kiska)

Post #: 34

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 5:57:24 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear Bearlee, Ladies and Gentlemen;

In my youth in the scene, I was informed that should it be said, "Not if it pleases you," was a "No," from a slave. The Master would be keen on this and he/she would then change course as not to tread in that direction. To say "Yes," the words "If it pleases you" would be used.

I know to some it is a play with words however, it allowed the slave to say a polite and obedient no and allowed the Master/Mistress an opportunity to move away from that direction. I do think it is a dual opportunity in any communication setting, no matter what individuals create between them as things are less uniformed now days.

I also find it an opportunity to explore with the slave why they are unwilling to say yes, without being so harsh. I also have used, "Not at this time," to which leads me into the response and another opportunity for the slave to lead into or out of the area. Additional responses that have worked well through the course of time has been;
No [insert Title/Master/Mistress] with an explaination. This again, allows me as a dominant to open the door to the explaination.

I also depend on honest communication from slaves. It is really hard for some lads and lassies to say no without crumbling into an emotional wreck, as most do so much want to say yes--but, something holds them back. Be it past history, unable to understand or not totally able to analyze fast enough they fumble as it is a trust issue, etc.

It is further important to understand that dominants will want to push a slave/submissive towards the things that challenge the trust and communication but, they also do not want to fracture that trust and or communication. Indeed, real life does interfere with so much of life's pleasures and lifestyle. However, that is a silent understood boundary, that real life takes front seat per se.

No, should not be seen as a dirty word. The "no" can be said so many ways as to keep the authority and submission in a M/s or D/s relationship active and the communication and trust, which is the foundation of consent going.

The real question that runs through my mind when a slave/submissive says "no," is the intent of the word 'no;' to which sets the tone from there. Is it a boundary. Is it an excuse to avoid. Is it really a 'not at this specific moment,' etc.

I also think that dominants need to get a 'grip' on themselves when they are told 'no' by their slaves/submissives. Some green dominants find 'no' as a threat and get an attitude. However, with time and experience they will come to find, that 'no' is a pause in the fluid of the shared experience. Taking the time and gently working with a slave or submissive as to why it is a no; is an investment in the slave and or submissive, as to make it possible in time at their speed to say yes.
And, if 'no' is uttered by a slave/submissive; I consider that slave and or submissive protecting themselves, as I would want them to protect themselves--even from me. That is the duty of the slave/submissive of mine. As, they know from me--they are the most important person in my life.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 35

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 6:17:31 PM

NINASHARP

Posts: 295
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: NJ/NYC
Status: offline

Lady Hugs,

I just have to say you are a remarkable woman! I just had a light go off in my head regarding hearing the word "No", as I re-read your post. Much like I do with many of your postings that you put forward with such mannerism and articulacy. I know this is off topic, but I think you are just an amazing woman. If I ever had a desire to serve another, I would hope that he/she would be like you.

Sincerely,

Nina

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 36

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 6:38:46 PM

sharainks

Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

I also find Lady Hugs to be a shining beacon of common sense and insight. She reminds me a lot of two good dom friends who got into this back in the 1970's. There seemed to be a lot more respect flowing between members of the lifestyle back then and more understanding of people dynamics.

Sometimes it seems too many are into throw away relationships...you either do it now without question or to hell with you. To me that demeans both sides of the relationship and says little about the vaunted communication that is supposed to take place inside a D/s relationship.

(in reply to NINASHARP)

Post #: 37

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 7:36:13 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear NINASHARP, sharainks, Ladies and Gentlemen;

I do thank you for such kind words. I really do wish to respect and foster success in others through my sincere wish, that all find happiness in their lives.

I am a product of the scene in the 1970's, to which being discreet, respectful, compassionate, understanding and forgiving was normal.
We all start the same way per se, walking the same journey but, only in our individual ways. So, sharainks--Yes, I am one of those that remember such kind exchanges among peers. One person can make a difference. Many people joined in like mind can make an impact.

The lifestyle that I know and cherish, is very sincere about "How may I be of help to you;" regardless if Master, Mistress and or slave.

Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to sharainks)

Post #: 38

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 7:58:06 PM

timeoutgurlie

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline

Recently, my partner and I were playing with wax, he isn't experienced, he put it *WAY* too close to my skin, on my back no less (not sure of everyone, but for me, back and sides can't take the heat like the front of my body...who knows

)...I immediately said stop, but said ti with a lot more of a bitchy tone, I was fucking being burned, of course it was bitchy lol

I don't see how this has potential to "end" the D/s relationship. He made a mistake from inexperience, I know damn well he would never intentionally burn me, but it happened, and I yelled and that doesn't make me any less of a submissive than the girl who lays there and takes it or asks him to stop in a more 'submissive tone'.

Bottom line: There's no right and wrong, no absolutes. What one sub does with their Dom could break another couple's relationship. The same can be said for every relationship, kinky, vanilla, romantic, platonic. Everyone's standards and expectations are different.

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

Post #: 39

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 8:22:47 PM

BreakMeShakeMe

Posts: 339
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

As with all aspects of bdsm, sexuality, and life in general, I am fascinated whenever someone states "this is the way it is done"

This is the way it is done - by you.

It's a big world full of people who don't do it at all as you do, and consider themselves to be doing it "right".

If I had a partner that I cared about, and it wasn't just "roll play" (sic, snicker) then I would be more patient than the OP suggests. If I had a committed partner who objected, I would take the objection seriously and re-consider where our communication might have gone afoul.

I know the uber-dommy thing to say is "you're outta here". Do whatever you do however you like, but it isn't any more the "right way" than anything else.

OK sense the quote in question was mine on another thread...and only part of the post was quoted....as was added.. it depends on the way it's stated. When I agree to submit to someone..I do not give up my right to say no. When I was in my two former M/s relationships... for years mind you.. and did not end because I said no to them either. I never gave up my right to say no.

As to what you will or will not do in your relationship... differs from what I will or will not do. It's between the dom and me that I am submitting to. You do not like that I will say No to a damn dom... too damn bad.

You simply do not like the way things work in others worlds... that they're not exactly as yours.. too damn bad.. give over it and yourselves into thinking it's your way or no damn way.

Sense being on CM i've had much of the same things thrown at me over my way of thinking of things. So I just simply state what I do... I don't give a damn what you do or do not do... why think because I say No.. i'm fucked up.... not anything but a role player.. you do not know me.. you've never seen me scene..submit.. or anything else.. best thing to do is remember... this is something you may not do... but doesn't mean others do or don't.

Oh and before I forget... in the other thread... you didn't want to discuss this further...And I agreed... so you bring it up again..... now that was fucking funny.

edited to add.... OedipusRexIt....... thanks for bringing this up btw.. that's why I used your response in my quote...

< Message edited by BreakMeShakeMe -- 6/15/2006 8:24:51 PM >

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Wisdom is knowing what to do, Skill is knowing how to, Virtue is just doing it.

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 40

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