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RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 8:29:55 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe
When I was in my two former M/s relationships... for years mind you.. and did not end because I said no to them either. I never gave up my right to say no.

Hell, as I was saying to you earlier, hun, the day I give up my right to say No is the day they bury me. I'm a human being, not a robot. And guess what...I'm still submissive, no matter what anyone else wants to believe. Never had a partner who doubted that for a second.

I understand exactly where you are coming from...I never signed up to be a Stepford Wife...and I never will.

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quote:

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(in reply to BreakMeShakeMe)

Post #: 41

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 9:46:43 PM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

I was in one D/s relatioship for 14 years, and yes, there were times I said "No". He didn't release me, he didn't toss me out on the streets. I was in one for two years, I had occasion to say no then also.
As BreakmeShakeMe said in her OP in the other thread, it is the way in which it is said. I never just stomped my feet, and dug in and said " No, I will not ". I don't know what world everyone else lives in, but there are days or times that a certain request/order is just not managable. And if *my* Dominant does not understand that, then he and I have a big problem. I don't like to say no and have not had to say no often, so when I have had occasion to say it with a reasonable explanation or a I can't today, but will tomorrow, my Dominants have not seen it as disobedient at all.
And if that makes me not subly enough or they not Domly enough... Oh well. it worked for us.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 42

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 10:27:44 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

fast reply

Being able to say no to anyone and everyone means someone has a well developed sense of self esteem and will be able to protect themselves. Many women have trouble saying no, and on some levels this makes them less safe than if they are able to say no and mean it without backing down. I think it that there maybe times when we need to say no, even to our dominants. I think that people with little experience or no experience may hesitate to say no when they need to if they feel that makes them less submissive. If they are in the early stages of a relationship and do not want to displease someone that may not have their best interests at heart they should not feel they are less submissive for using NO to protect themselves.

I think many submissives have trouble saying this word period, and maybe we should say it more than we do.. but that is my opinion and I could be wrong (Ive been thinking about this thread since I first read it...lol)

_____________________________

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(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 43

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/15/2006 10:48:33 PM

timeoutgurlie

Posts: 588
Joined: 3/21/2006
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To Bearlee...lemme first say I've read a bunch of posts by you and think you're a complete doll. Now, did I just read in the Obedience thread that you have never had a D/s^M/s relationship?

If so, then please, reconsider the whole 100% do as He says mentality...ESPECIALLY in your first relationship! If I read wrong, then by all means call me a dork and sorry I misread lol

(in reply to BreakMeShakeMe)

Post #: 44

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 2:49:18 AM

irishbynature

Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
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If your relationship comes to the point that you are always, or have to continue, to say "No"...then I agree, communication is missing.
Irish:)

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What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

Post #: 45

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 4:58:33 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
In my relationship, refusing to do what he instructs me to do, removes my consent and his ownership of me.

If there is something that I don't think I can do, then I talk to him about it. In the end though, if he says to do it and I refuse, then the M/s relationship is over.

I made this statement earlier in the thread and I want to expand on it. I don't have any difficulty in saying no to someone, including my Lord. The distinction is I will not willfully disobey a direct order. In fact though, there are very few direct orders given on a daily basis. Mostly there are expectations and priorities set and I do my best to meet them all. He asks me questions all the time, and I have no problem saying no, I don't want that. I just won't say it to a direct order. That doesn't mean that I am a robot, have a low self-esteem or that I am more submissive than someone else. It just means that I understand the dynamic that I am in and that this is how I choose to interact in my intimate relationship. This is what I agreed to and wanted when I started this relationship; it is what fulfills me.

kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 46

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 5:16:38 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
In my relationship, refusing to do what he instructs me to do, removes my consent and his ownership of me.

If there is something that I don't think I can do, then I talk to him about it. In the end though, if he says to do it and I refuse, then the M/s relationship is over.

I made this statement earlier in the thread and I want to expand on it. I don't have any difficulty in saying no to someone, including my Lord. The distinction is I will not willfully disobey a direct order. In fact though, there are very few direct orders given on a daily basis. Mostly there are expectations and priorities set and I do my best to meet them all. He asks me questions all the time, and I have no problem saying no, I don't want that. I just won't say it to a direct order. That doesn't mean that I am a robot, have a low self-esteem or that I am more submissive than someone else. It just means that I understand the dynamic that I am in and that this is how I choose to interact in my intimate relationship. This is what I agreed to and wanted when I started this relationship; it is what fulfills me.

kyra

I had one finally comment that many seem to forget and really hasn't been stated very clearly. It is a much a responsibility of the My slave kyra and alandra not to "Willfully Disobedy" as it is for me not to give Stupid orders that would require them to say "No". It is a joint responsiblity to keep a relationship going.

I would add that the joint responsiblity is very much a universal thing for a functional relationship to exist.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 47

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 5:16:43 AM

Calandra

Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
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(Fast Reply)

As a Domme, I expect my orders to be carried out. When I give an order, if the sub/slave has an emotional issue they may request "permission to speak freely". Now 90% of the time, I grant it right then, and the sub may speak from his/her heart without fear of reprisal. Maybe they are having a bad day and just don't feel like doing that particular chore. If the sub/slave has a logistical issue they may respectfully say "Mistress, I cannot do as you ask, because......" Maybe the car has been acting up and they forgot to tell me, and they don't think it's wise to perform that errand until it's fixed. Maybe maybe maybe....

On the occasion that I cannot grant that permission to speak freely right then, I will appoint a specific time in the near future to sit down and hear the sub/slave out completely, however I expect that my commands be fulfilled up until that time arrives, unless they have a very good reason not to.

Now on a rare occasion I'll give a command and expect it to be done right then without argument. Usually it's either something that I already know the sub/slave dislikes and I know that the more time they mull over it and dread it, the bigger the deal becomes. Or it's something that I simply do not have time to consider and assign to someone else. I would hope that a dedicated sub/slave would put the needs of the household above their own selfish needs in this case.

An outright "no" without some explanation or request for further dialogue would unfortunately result in their dismissal/release.

We're all adults here, and I put a lot of effort into being approachable whenever possible. Therefore I expect the sub/slaves in my home to communicate any difficulties whenever possible.

Without fail, anyone who has been in my home within the last ten years, but has not lasted, has ultimately been asked to leave/left on their own because they would not take responsibility for their actions and/or their communication.... I think the two phrases I hate to hear the most are "I'm shy" and "I hate confrontation". If a sub/slave is interested in being MINE, they either learn to communicate with me, or they need to look elsewhere...

< Message edited by Calandra -- 6/16/2006 5:20:28 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 48

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 5:28:39 AM

cheshireboy

Posts: 217
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

there are times...not many...that i have said no...but in someways it is me being proactive...such as i forget to get a pillow for the Mistress to sit on...and realize that, then ask may i go get one, and gets told no, now if she doesn't have her pillow to sit on then her back starts to hurt and she can't sleep, so in a way punishing me for my forgetfulness is also punishing her, which is her right, but that doesn't stop me from saying "no, if you need to punish me for defying you right now i completely understand and will accept that punishment with open arms, but you need to be able to sleep tonight, so i am going to get your pillow" it may not be the correct way to act in the moment, but it could be the right one some how.

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

Post #: 49

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 5:34:36 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

timeoutgurlie, I would not call you a dork…but yes, you must have misread.

And please people…this thread IS about communication! Of course if one must say ‘no’, one will say no…but the whole point of this conversation was about HOW one says ‘No’. I had quoted what I thought was a very flip, sarcastic (now she says she was kidding) submissive and…knowing that IS how some ‘play the game’, I was curious to hear how it was handled with folks more seriously into D/s.

I have the feeling some have just jumped in at the middle of this thread and responded off the cuff; without regard for the original post. I am not, for one instant, suggesting submissives become brainless door-mats…but curious for the responses of submissives, earnest in their desire to please their Dominants, regarding just how seriously they took obedience.

(in reply to timeoutgurlie)

Post #: 50

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 5:45:20 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

As with all aspects of bdsm, sexuality, and life in general, I am fascinated whenever someone states "this is the way it is done"

This is the way it is done - by you.

It's a big world full of people who don't do it at all as you do, and consider themselves to be doing it "right".

If I had a partner that I cared about, and it wasn't just "roll play" (sic, snicker) then I would be more patient than the OP suggests. If I had a committed partner who objected, I would take the objection seriously and re-consider where our communication might have gone afoul.

I know the uber-dommy thing to say is "you're outta here". Do whatever you do however you like, but it isn't any more the "right way" than anything else.

(red hightlights are mine)

First of all, let me say my spelling is atrocious! For that reason, I usually write in a word processor and paste here. Sometimes my mistake is the wrong word entirely and spell-check doesn’t catch it. Kind of like no and know or to, too, and two. I DO know when to use the right words, Sir… but sometimes, for whatever reason, I type the wrong one. I’ve mixed up hear and here, though I DO know the difference. Perhaps I’m a bit dyslexic? Perhaps I type too fast? But…thank you for pointing out my mistake. Role-play…I got it.

Now…you are NOT responding to the original post…perhaps you should read it before you make your own pronunciations about what I suggest.

Edited to add an 'e' to past.... I meant 'paste'...but my spellchecker didn't catch THAT one, either! <shakes head>

< Message edited by Bearlee -- 6/16/2006 5:46:54 AM >

(in reply to OedipusRexIt)

Post #: 51

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 5:59:55 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Being able to say no to anyone and everyone means someone has a well developed sense of self esteem and will be able to protect themselves. Many women have trouble saying no, and on some levels this makes them less safe than if they are able to say no and mean it without backing down. I think it that there maybe times when we need to say no, even to our dominants. I think that people with little experience or no experience may hesitate to say no when they need to if they feel that makes them less submissive. If they are in the early stages of a relationship and do not want to displease someone that may not have their best interests at heart they should not feel they are less submissive for using NO to protect themselves.

I think many submissives have trouble saying this word period, and maybe we should say it more than we do.. but that is my opinion and I could be wrong (Ive been thinking about this thread since I first read it...lol)

You make a very good point…Thank you.

I just wish people would read my original post to see WHAT it was I was hoping to discuss. Gee, some are wondering if I can say ‘no’ to a simple question!

Of course people must be able to say ‘No’… my question was NOT about the necessity to discuss struggles and concerns with one’s dominant but rather about REFUSING a ‘direct order’. (must I state I am assuming this ‘direct order’ is by one’s OWN Dominant, to whom one has submitted control…and that said ‘direct order’ has nothing to do with murder, child molestation or any other suggestion a person in their right mind would say NO to?)

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 52

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 6:07:31 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

Fast reply:

ahhhhhhh... well said Calandra, thank you. I appreciated your last paragraph, too.

cheshireboy... interesting comments! You put a spin on the whole concept of 'No'... LOL I look forward to any comments Dominants have to say about your post.

Communication is hard... perhaps I didn't do so well with my original post; hopefully we can continue this thread more along the lines we're on now.

Thanks

(in reply to Calandra)

Post #: 53

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 6:19:05 AM

Calandra

Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheshireboy

there are times...not many...that i have said no...but in someways it is me being proactive...such as i forget to get a pillow for the Mistress to sit on...and realize that, then ask may i go get one, and gets told no, now if she doesn't have her pillow to sit on then her back starts to hurt and she can't sleep, so in a way punishing me for my forgetfulness is also punishing her, which is her right, but that doesn't stop me from saying "no, if you need to punish me for defying you right now i completely understand and will accept that punishment with open arms, but you need to be able to sleep tonight, so i am going to get your pillow" it may not be the correct way to act in the moment, but it could be the right one some how.

Danggggg,
I thought I heard cubby there for a minute....
cubby us very much like you... I was in a car accident three years ago and I will sometimes refuse my meds, or I'll say no or nevermind when he asks me if I need something (a pillow behind my back, or a refill of iced tea) and he'll playfully say "Mystress, forgive me please, but YOU NEED YOUR PAIN MEDS" Not yelling, just emphasising.

When I was going through physical therapy he'd coach me and say "one more Mystress or I'm telling Lynn (My therapist)"

He would too... apparently it's in the subbie handbook somewhere that a sub/slave can disobey/argue if the Master/Mistress isn't taking proper care of him/herself... ~chuckles~

(in reply to cheshireboy)

Post #: 54

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 6:30:05 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

ROFLMBO ...

awwwwwww, now that's sweeeeet! <big grinzzzz>

See, now THAT is good communication (in my book).

(in reply to Calandra)

Post #: 55

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 7:16:13 AM

Calandra

Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline

I love our communication... It's often difficult when I am considering someone new for the family because they have a really really tough act to follow with cubby as My alpha...

I guess my simplest answer to the original OP is this... if you feel you have to say no, be respectful in your tone, and have a reason for the refusal immediately so that your Dom/me can assess whether you have good cause or whether you are being willfully disobedient...

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 56

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 7:24:24 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

Fox never says "no" to me, ever!

He still has access to his stopword if things are that bad but I can'r recall the last time I heard it.

As for refusing my orders, that would result in a "one week's notice to move out" because as said in quotes the OP used he has all ready ended the Ds relationship by doing so.

He can instead do other things. Explain he needs more time or that he is in the middle of something else he was doing but that only gets him time to finish up quickly or save the work (he does web design from home) so he can do as commanded. He can also tell me that he isn't feeling well. He gives me information; he does not say "no".

I can't even remember the last time I had to add an "now" to an order....

He also knows that I don't give orders for no reason. Most of his life is doing things that he knows I want done, that he wants or that he needs, he learned enough in training and by living with me to not need many orders. So if I give an order, there is a reason and I'm the one with the authority so my order holds.

My guess is that either the OP quote first listed is a casual and uncareful way of wording a similar situation or a situation that I would not define as a Ms relationship.

By the way, telling me to "do it myself" is being mouthy and that will result in one of my rare punishments. Second time, that's a breaker for the relationship.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 57

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 7:36:30 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe
When I was in my two former M/s relationships... for years mind you.. and did not end because I said no to them either. I never gave up my right to say no.

Hell, as I was saying to you earlier, hun, the day I give up my right to say No is the day they bury me. I'm a human being, not a robot. And guess what...I'm still submissive, no matter what anyone else wants to believe. Never had a partner who doubted that for a second.

I understand exactly where you are coming from...I never signed up to be a Stepford Wife...and I never will.

I should not presume to speak for most dominants but I'm going to go out on a limb and state that most dominants, myself included, do not have a problem with the word "No". Where the problem comes in is, as suggested earlier in my post and in several others' posts here, is sometimes the situation or reasoning behind the no and sometimes, as bearlee suggested in her original post, the way it is delivered.

I don't want a Stepford wife nor do I want a parrot. I do want communication and the respect I have earned from the one who is submitting to me. As I stated earlier, if she has a problem with something that I have told her to do, I would expect her to tell me so and ask to discuss it. Just saying no without a valid reason or to be difficult or to 'test' me will be ignored. Bitchy doesn't work well with me either...understandable if I don't pay attention to a respectful attitude (yeah, it is possible in most situations, unless your life is being threatened or you are in imminent danger of being harmed permanently)...but not otherwise. That is a slight glimpse of what works/does not work for me and as has been noted, there are differences in relationships.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 58

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 7:44:41 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
...
As for refusing my orders, ...he has all ready ended the Ds relationship by doing so.

He can instead do other things. Explain he needs more time or that he is in the middle of something else he was doing but that only gets him time to finish up quickly or save the work (he does web design from home) so he can do as commanded. He can also tell me that he isn't feeling well.

He gives me information; he does not say "no"....

color and bolding are mine (sorry for the re-arranging; I wanted to look at it again!)

Wow... I like that. Thank you for your post...

And...as for saying no equating to ending the relationship...I couldn't agree more. To just flat-out refuse, IMHO, has got to end a D/s relationship....in my book. I can't imagine how it could work to just 'obey' if ya felt like it; yanno?

Thanks again

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 59

RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/16/2006 7:45:53 AM

trippingdaisy

Posts: 113
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

(Fast reply)

i wanted to add that i agree that this isn't about not being able to say no...that never was the case. It's about how it's said, which differs in every dynamic.

i admit i was very quick to say 'don't say it like THAT!' because...honestly? If i were, i'd just end up horrified at myself. i apologize if that sounded like judgement on my part.

Suffice it to say that in -any- relationship. M/s, D/s or not...outright saying 'NO' cuts off a lot of communication. There are always exceptions to the rule, however...so it's all really subjective.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 60

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