quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA
When social etiquette is built around gender roles established by the power dynamic and you invert those power roles, clinging to the normative social etiquette is monumentally dishonest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EsotericLady


How in the world can ANY submissive, (new or otherwise), who is respectful, obedient, and conscientious enough to wish to act in the most appropriate way when in the presence of a Dominant, deserve the comments I just read?

Good manners coming from the "1912 old-fashioned" variety could certainly teach a thing or two to those manners originating from the "2012 it's all about MEEEEEEE" variety!!!

I certainly consider that his concerns reflect "brains and politeness as essentials in a submissive."

(Thank you)

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

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ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

.....Bear in mind I have never subbed in my life in real time, so, I am unsure of protocols.
I'm sure they vary - but is there a norm?

First of all, 1912 called and they want their dating manual back. How dare you state it as "fact" that men are supposed to ask for dates, choose the place, and then pay for everything? Are you saying you think the man is also supposed to choose what his date orders from the menu? It's these old fashioned ideas of yours that are preventing you from knowing what to do in this situation.

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ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

All I know is the protocol in the real world - which is basically, for the first date, the guy asks, the guy chooses, the guy pays.

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ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.

See this is what I find repulsive. When a Dom has lunch with a sub, he pays because he's responsible. When a Domme has lunch with a sub, HE pays because she's a princess and is entitled to tribute.

FemDom reeks of this entitlement mentality.......Yet Dommes seem to think they're entitled to this behaviour. Amazing.

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

I almost always offer to pick up the tab on a first date. I have noticed that this bothers some men, but I have also noticed that it bothers them when women do not offer to pay.

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When social etiquette is built around gender roles established by the power dynamic and you invert those power roles, clinging to the normative social etiquette is monumentally dishonest.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
It doesn't matter if she's a dominant woman or a submissive woman. Societal norms still apply.

And even though she is dominant, I still hold the door for her, help her with her coat, and pull her chair out for her. It's been my experience that many (most?) dominant women still like to be treated like a lady. You, on the other hand, are assuming that since she is a Domme, she should perform the stereotypical male functions. IMO, dominance doesn't necessitate acting like a man.

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ORIGINAL: skareamoose

Pay. There are limits to frugality.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
by definition, female domination violates most societal dating norms.

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ORIGINAL: Agent99

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When social etiquette is built around gender roles established by the power dynamic and you invert those power roles, clinging to the normative social etiquette is monumentally dishonest.

Wow. Just wow. That sagacious observation just blew me away.

All the people here who wrote that the same rules should apply in all situations should re-read that sentence over and over again until it sinks in.

Clearly, the Domme should take the power position here.

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ORIGINAL: Agent99

quote:

When social etiquette is built around gender roles established by the power dynamic and you invert those power roles, clinging to the normative social etiquette is monumentally dishonest.

Wow. Just wow. That sagacious observation just blew me away.

All the people here who wrote that the same rules should apply in all situations should re-read that sentence over and over again until it sinks in.

Clearly, the Domme should take the power position here.

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ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
It doesn't matter if she's a dominant woman or a submissive woman. Societal norms still apply.

And even though she is dominant, I still hold the door for her, help her with her coat, and pull her chair out for her. It's been my experience that many (most?) dominant women still like to be treated like a lady. You, on the other hand, are assuming that since she is a Domme, she should perform the stereotypical male functions. IMO, dominance doesn't necessitate acting like a man.

You're misunderstanding his position. I'll grant you that this is easy to do, because of his fondness for a conversational gambit of posting in a combative tone, to see which posters react to the tone (a form of submission in his eyes) and which cut through the bullshit to the argument itself. (As an aside, if you extract and ignore the tone, there's almost always something substantial to grapple with. It's a bit like how some people didn't "get" Domiguy.)

Acting like a man and wielding power aren't the same thing. The man can hold the door, and all that other stuff -- even choose the restaurant -- but if he also pays, there's a clear asymmetry between "traditional" maledom, and the femdom on display in this example. The traditional male leads the female, and also provides her protection and security. This protection and security is largely financial in modern society, and paying for the first date is a way of saying, "As I begin, so shall I continue." By contrast, if the female wants to be in charge of everything, but still rely on the man to provide protection and security, then what is she really bringing to the table? She's insisting on power without having anything to back it up. Ultimately, this diminishes her, because her value to the relationship is that she provides sex and eroticism.
At least, that's Tafkaa's argument, as I understand it. Also, I largely agree, and the women who are close to me agree with that also. Ladies who want quality men to stick around buy them things. This is the 21st century, and money doesn't just flow one direction, unless the "femdom" wants to be a kept woman.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha


I do feel that "the one who asks/pursues is the one that pays." Since I usually was the "predator" and liked that role, I expected to pay. I also preferred to drive, etc.

On dates when I was a little older and the ages were closer, and the men were more "mature" for lack of a better word, I do recall after reflecting on it a bit, I still always planned to pay. However, I would be disappointed if a man did not make a move to pay, or try to take the bill. I would never let him, as "paying" was a position of power, and "not letting the man pay" was something I could do. It was something I could take away from him in the courting process to establish a since of "I am objectifying you. And I am not letting you assume a traditional role of control."

If a man who was more established (ie, had a career) and sophisticated "expected" me to pay because I was the femdom I might find that a bit lack in tact even if it was my intent, but I'd blow it off it there was chemistry anyway.
I think it's classy if a man tries to pay. As a femdom, I think it shows who is in charge if I don't let him.

Akasha

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ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Well technically the op asked her first out for coffee. All she did was say, let's not go for coffee....dinner instead. He still asked first....thus he pays. See? Easy. I've had guys do the same. They would ask me out for a drink at a bar. I would say, let's meet for coffee at such and such place. All I did was clarify a place. I never asked him out. Thus he pays.

But hey, whatever. I like traditional etiquette.