RE: gun control and tragedies

RE: gun control and tragedies (Full Version)

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Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 1:38:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer If that was covered by the 2nd Amendment, it must have been wise, by definition. No? Well if we accept that America is a violent country, rendering its citizens defenseless doesn't seem very wise either. K. But such would be so progressive. [8D] The epitome of wisdom[:(]

tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 1:43:24 PM)
quote: Child, home alone, with access to a gun... home invasion (this is a gun control and tragedies thread) and it was repelled, successfully. Of course you'd suddenly want to talk only about being home alone, since you lose otherwise when staying ON TOPIC (shit, read your posts above) to the discussion and links posted. Two stories... children left alone at home. If children had not be home alone, then who would have been there to fire? First story, mom at work. Take child along, take child to friends, take child to library. Why leave child home alone ? Second story. Child home with younger siblings. Father out. Loaded gun readily available. If the father had taken care of his children and NOT left them alone, this would be a burglary instead of a traumatizing event. This really does escape you, doesnt it.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 1:47:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Child, home alone, with access to a gun... home invasion (this is a gun control and tragedies thread) and it was repelled, successfully. Of course you'd suddenly want to talk only about being home alone, since you lose otherwise when staying ON TOPIC (shit, read your posts above) to the discussion and links posted. Two stories... children left alone at home. If children had not be home alone, then who would have been there to fire? First story, mom at work. Take child along, take child to friends, take child to library. Why leave child home alone ? Second story. Child home with younger siblings. Father out. Loaded gun readily available. If the father had taken care of his children and NOT left them alone, this would be a burglary instead of a traumatizing event. This really does escape you, doesnt it. Other story... child and adults home. Child drives off assailants. You make it sound as if that would never happen when adults are there. Sorry, but it did. It's NOT about being home alone. That is a separate issue. Home alone or not, it's a self defense issue. edit: Look, Tazzy, in the 2 instances you bring up there is nothing to support the unequivocal parental defense had they all been home. In each instance, mine being direct to it, parents could have been home. but that does not say it would not have been the child to perform the act of self defense. All you have to go on is that in your 2 instances, had the kids been with parent they'd not have been home to self defend. That misses the point.

Nosathro -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 1:56:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Child, home alone, with access to a gun... home invasion (this is a gun control and tragedies thread) and it was repelled, successfully. Of course you'd suddenly want to talk only about being home alone, since you lose otherwise when staying ON TOPIC (shit, read your posts above) to the discussion and links posted. Two stories... children left alone at home. If children had not be home alone, then who would have been there to fire? First story, mom at work. Take child along, take child to friends, take child to library. Why leave child home alone ? Second story. Child home with younger siblings. Father out. Loaded gun readily available. If the father had taken care of his children and NOT left them alone, this would be a burglary instead of a traumatizing event. This really does escape you, doesnt it. Other story... child and adults home. Child drives off assailants. You make it sound as if that would never happen when adults are there. Sorry, but it did. It's NOT about being home alone. That is a separate issue. Home alone or not, it's a self defense issue. I saw an interesting story on the Animal Channel recently, a woman who live alone, except for a blind cat, had someone break in during the night while she was sleeping, the cat drove the guy off. So you don't need gun...a cat will do and they are cuter then a gun.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:01:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Child, home alone, with access to a gun... home invasion (this is a gun control and tragedies thread) and it was repelled, successfully. Of course you'd suddenly want to talk only about being home alone, since you lose otherwise when staying ON TOPIC (shit, read your posts above) to the discussion and links posted. Two stories... children left alone at home. If children had not be home alone, then who would have been there to fire? First story, mom at work. Take child along, take child to friends, take child to library. Why leave child home alone ? Second story. Child home with younger siblings. Father out. Loaded gun readily available. If the father had taken care of his children and NOT left them alone, this would be a burglary instead of a traumatizing event. This really does escape you, doesnt it. Other story... child and adults home. Child drives off assailants. You make it sound as if that would never happen when adults are there. Sorry, but it did. It's NOT about being home alone. That is a separate issue. Home alone or not, it's a self defense issue. I saw an interesting story on the Animal Channel recently, a woman who live alone, except for a blind cat, had someone break in during the night while she was sleeping, the cat drove the guy off. So you don't need gun...a cat will do and they are cuter then a gun. No guarantee on that one. Any statistics on home invasion and cat defense? Personally, I think you're purring up the wrong scratching post.[8D]

PeonForHer -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:01:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro they are cuter then a gun. Nothing's cuter than a gun, Nosathro. Nothing. ;-)

Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:04:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro I saw an interesting story on the Animal Channel recently, a woman who live alone, except for a blind cat, had someone break in during the night while she was sleeping, the cat drove the guy off. So you don't need gun...a cat will do and they are cuter then a gun. Sounds like something Biden would say. K.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:04:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro they are cuter then a gun. Nothing's cuter than a gun, Nosathro. Nothing. ;-) Some firearms are downright gorgeous in their workmanship. Mostly shotguns though.

tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:04:27 PM)
quote: Other story... child and adults home. Child drives off assailants. You make it sound as if that would never happen when adults are there. Sorry, but it did. And, again, you are totally missing the point all the way around. Home invasion can happen at any time to anyone. Why the hell leave your kids at home alone to deal with the possibility of it happening to them when they are alone????? That other story was 2 children and mom. They saw the gun and split. Thankfully the "kid" didnt have to fire.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:12:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Other story... child and adults home. Child drives off assailants. You make it sound as if that would never happen when adults are there. Sorry, but it did. And, again, you are totally missing the point all the way around. Home invasion can happen at any time to anyone. Why the hell leave your kids at home alone to deal with the possibility of it happening to them when they are alone????? That other story was 2 children and mom. They saw the gun and split. Thankfully the "kid" didnt have to fire. Of course. But the simple fact is, IT HAPPENS and you'd prefer them defenseless (access to a firearm? What??) except when they are adult supervised. Even then they might be the ones to pull the trigger.

tazzygirl -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:30:34 PM)
quote: Of course. But the simple fact is, IT HAPPENS and you'd prefer them defenseless (access to a firearm? What??) except when they are adult supervised. Even then they might be the ones to pull the trigger. I would PREFER holding the parents accountable when children are left home, unattended, with a loaded gun in the house.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 2:37:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Of course. But the simple fact is, IT HAPPENS and you'd prefer them defenseless (access to a firearm? What??) except when they are adult supervised. Even then they might be the ones to pull the trigger. I would PREFER holding the parents accountable when children are left home, unattended, with a loaded gun in the house. What? [8\|] I thought it was only about home alone! So why the "gun in the house" distinction? Oh, that's right. Victim-hood is laudable. Allows you to wear your heart on your sleeve. It's only about the fucking guns to you. Disgusting. [:'(]

Focus50 -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:00:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Of course. But the simple fact is, IT HAPPENS and you'd prefer them defenseless (access to a firearm? What??) except when they are adult supervised. Even then they might be the ones to pull the trigger. I would PREFER holding the parents accountable when children are left home, unattended, with a loaded gun in the house. What? [8\|] I thought it was only about home alone! So why the "gun in the house" distinction? Oh, that's right. Victim-hood is laudable. Allows you to wear your heart on your sleeve. It's only about the fucking guns to you. Disgusting. [:'(] Seems to me tazzy's talking about principles whereas you're an "after the fact" kinda guy clinging to an isolated incident that just happened to end well. I'm sure if this kid had accidentally shot one of her siblings during, you and your 20/20 hindsight wouldn't be here whereas the principle tazzy's advocating rings as true as ever. Principles do that; stand the test of time and circumstance...! Focus.

PeonForHer -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:11:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro they are cuter then a gun. Nothing's cuter than a gun, Nosathro. Nothing. ;-) Some firearms are downright gorgeous in their workmanship. Mostly shotguns though. Myself, I think corpses with bullet holes in them are cuter, Yachtie. Like big red rosebuds, with speech bubbles in them saying 'God Bless America!' Lovely! [:)]

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:32:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Of course. But the simple fact is, IT HAPPENS and you'd prefer them defenseless (access to a firearm? What??) except when they are adult supervised. Even then they might be the ones to pull the trigger. I would PREFER holding the parents accountable when children are left home, unattended, with a loaded gun in the house. What? [8\|] I thought it was only about home alone! So why the "gun in the house" distinction? Oh, that's right. Victim-hood is laudable. Allows you to wear your heart on your sleeve. It's only about the fucking guns to you. Disgusting. [:'(] Seems to me tazzy's talking about principles whereas you're an "after the fact" kinda guy clinging to an isolated incident that just happened to end well. I'm sure if this kid had accidentally shot one of her siblings during, you and your 20/20 hindsight wouldn't be here whereas the principle tazzy's advocating rings as true as ever. Principles do that; stand the test of time and circumstance...! Focus. Nope. It's all in the posts. Tazzy is correct in that it is better to not leave children home alone, unsupervised. But she points, emphatically, to guns when she says that. I would PREFER holding the parents accountable when children are left home, unattended, with a loaded gun in the house. This implies that leaving children home alone with no accessible gun in the house as okay as she made no distinction but to point to the gun in her assertion. It's right there. She also states that not leaving children home alone removes the home invasion/child home alone scenario from consideration. To that I agree. But the simple fact is, children are left home alone a lot (ignoring ages here). So, given that such does occur regularly it is quite apparent that she favors no gun at all in all circumstances. Thus children home alone are defenseless. Now comes children who have self defended themselves, even where adults are present. Sure, accidents do happen. Of all sorts and varieties. But this is not sufficient reason to reduce to the least common denominator of absolutely no self defense where unsupervised children are the sole issue. To wit, see the links. Ignoring the home alone aspect, it appears Tazzy would have preferred that unknown outcome, being one without gun use. It's not 20/20 hindsight here. The fact is children are left alone a lot. Home invasions do happen. An accessible gun is not determinative THAT an accident SHALL happen no more than having an automobile is of one. But it's quite apparent Tazzy prefers the defenseless posture. It is debatable but without absolute answer. Yes, principles do stand. The links point to principles of a different sort than Tazzy applauds. The results speak to the result of those principles whether one agrees or not with their tenants. The children did self defend. Result known. There are also many cases where no defense was ever offered and there are also many outcomes, some fatal to the victim. Whether a firearm would have changed those results is unknown, but if taken from the worst case, being fatal, there was no other direction to go but up - life. I'm not looking to isolated incidents. Those are but a few posted. They are not the only ones. Hell, when I was 12 I was home alone a lot. Knew how to use the 20ga and 12ga. Didn't matter as I was quite aware about them. I wasn't to touch them as play things. But damn if I wasn't expected to use them if necessary. If I was looking after another younger kid too I was expected to do as needed. Including making dinner (PB&J) edit: one also does not know what end result shall occur from any incident. One might hope for merely being robbed yet wind up dead. The film In Cold Blood covered that (true story). Rape can turn into being killed. There is no clairvoyance for the victim. So what would be better? Act as if one shall survive, thus requiring no firearm defensive posture? That's taking quite the gamble. Like driving without using the seat belt; a won't happen to me posture. Seems more prudent to train your children right.

Yachtie -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:35:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro they are cuter then a gun. Nothing's cuter than a gun, Nosathro. Nothing. ;-) Some firearms are downright gorgeous in their workmanship. Mostly shotguns though. Myself, I think corpses with bullet holes in them are cuter, Yachtie. Like big red rosebuds, with speech bubbles in them saying 'God Bless America!' Lovely! [:)] Well, tastes do vary[8D] How do you like your women again? [8\|]

Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:46:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I would PREFER holding the parents accountable when children are left home, unattended, with a loaded gun in the house. That's it? Period? The end? As it seems to me, the examples clearly show that at least some young people of a certain age can be left alone with firearms present, perfectly safely, and to their benefit if untoward circumstances arise. Why do you PREFER to ignore evidence of that fact even when it's put right under your nose? K.

Kirata -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:51:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Myself, I think corpses with bullet holes in them are cuter... Ah, well, in that case, it's no wonder you've developed a neurotic reaction-formation against guns. [:)] K.

PeonForHer -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 3:59:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Ah, well, in that case, it's no wonder you've developed a neurotic reaction-formation against guns. [:)] Superb. Only in America would disliking guns be considered a sign of some psychological failing. [:D]

PeonForHer -> RE: gun control and tragedies (3/13/2013 4:00:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Well, tastes do vary[8D] How do you like your women again? [8\|] Attractive. And alive. And not gun-toting reactionary fruitcakes, if at all possible.

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