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RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:00:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

But I do agree with her. Assuming you could find this theoretical person who has no self-motivation whatsoever then they would deserve no credit. I just think we're talking about a vegetable here not a functioning human brain.


But the motivation shifts in such a relationship. It would be cruel, in my opinion, looking from the outside in, but lets say an owner decides, for whatever reason, to have the slave totally immerse themselves in an area for study that they have no desire to study, no desire to learn anything about. The slave, wanting to be pleasing, will do just that. The only motivation at that point is the pleasure of the owner.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:03:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

All I know is that I respect the CRAP out of Ishtar and my brain resonates on a very similar frequency to hers but the distinctions she carries in her head on this topic are 100% totally opaque to me despite best efforts at communication including trying to get help from "interpreters" -- a situation I find really amusing given how similarly our brains work.


Having been around Ishtar for far longer than I am sure she wants me to admit too, it took me a looooooooooooooooooong time to wrap my head around how she talks when she gets on a roll. Often, I have to stop, clear my head, read a few times, then try again.

The woman's intelligence speaks for itself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:03:54 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I understand Nueva. I just don't think that person exists as a literal statement. That is not a functioning human being... not even minimally functioning. In my head I can only come to "vegetable" when I play that out.

So when this theoretical person breaths it's "for the master"?
When they <insert ANYTHING here> it is "for the master"?

I'm not buying it. That's a theoretical model not an actual human. How the heck did such a person even grow up enough to find or be handed a master? When that baby with no sense of self at all came out of the womb, why did it breath? What did it do next? Why was it's brain not operating as every single other brain in all of nature does and start acquiring data, forming strategies, etc.

I mean seriously, given the nature of Carol's and my relationship we think pretty much along those lines but we are nowhere even close to what Ishtar talks about.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:08:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I am not sure about that, Jeff. I felt myself teetering on that edge more than once. Blessfully the ex was able to reel me in. Its not what he wanted, and I think he would have resented himself for doing that to me. So, yeah, I can see that happening.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:08:59 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		The focus of that previously functioning person shifts so that all he/she does is truly for the owner. It takes being "owned completely - mind, body and spirit" literally.

It's what IE was for me.

Does he own EVERYTHING, or not? If yes, then he owns my breath. Mind you, I am the one actually breathing, but he owns it.

You don't have to buy it, or even understand it. But it's a mindset that exists and in some complete IE situations, is felt internally.




ETA: In demonstrations of that kind of ownership, he would cut and bleed me, to demonstrate he owned my blood. He would choke and suffocate me, to demonstrate he owned my breath and could take it away. Trust me when I said there were times I wondered if he'd choke me to death....but didn't stop him.

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 6/7/2013 10:11:07 AM >

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:18:27 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I am not sure about that, Jeff. I felt myself teetering on that edge more than once.

It is not my place to tell other people what they experience. All I can tell you is that the image I have in my head equates to coma/vegetable. In all of nature this is not what brains do. Personally, I suspect the rub here is that I'm a literal engineer taking literal specs without any interpretation whatsoever. Very, very few people think like that.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:20:49 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		It was a very long thread but if you feel so inclined and can sift through it, the Loss of Control thread has posts from Ishtar, tazzy and I which might explain further.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:24:56 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
It was a very long thread but if you feel so inclined and can sift through it, the Loss of Control thread has posts from Ishtar, tazzy and I which might explain further.

No, it won't. Nobody will ever convince me that their brain is unique among every single human and non-human brain which has evolved in the planet earth. Again, the problem here I suspect (and one I face frequently) is that I'm a literal guy not a poetic one. For instance, I have the same problem with [unbounded] TPE. No, it's not "total" in a mathematical sense. It may be "total" in the sense people mean it or it may be "close enough to not matter" or "my boundaries are his boundaries so long as his don't change that much" but it is not total in the mathematical sense... ever... nor can it be.

edited to add per Carol's suggestion
The thing we are discussing here in a literal sense would require some sort of cable or data connect between the two brains. Consider... a brain which has ZERO internal motivation? This is just not reality at a biochemical level.


< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/7/2013 10:28:43 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:26:46 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I don't think anyone is trying to convince you that their brain is more unique. You said you didn't understand where we were coming from so I was offering some enlightenment into that, if you so chose to see it.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:31:35 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I don't think anyone is trying to convince you that their brain is more unique. You said you didn't understand where we were coming from so I was offering some enlightenment into that, if you so chose to see it.

Actually, I have my guesses where Ishtar is coming from and I don't really know where you are coming from but it's unimportant.

This is a lot like me arguing on the Gorean boards that goreans, AS WRITTEN, would be more like bears than humans. There was a lot of good solid reasoning there based upon observed differences in species behavior and mating/courtship rituals and some inferences about underlying differences in things like oxytocin chains. But all of it was a flight of fancy and had no relevance to any reasonable discussion because by definition what I'm speculating about is a different species.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:33:47 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I understand Nueva. I just don't think that person exists as a literal statement.


I reread some things. I understand this, and might actually agree with "as a literal statement." It is a mindset, and a very real one to those experiencing it.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:39:08 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Actually, I have my guesses where Ishtar is coming from and I don't really know where you are coming from but it's unimportant.



Hmm, well I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but if it's unimportant to understand where I'm coming from, then I'll stop answering your questions and comments about it.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:44:54 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I understand Nueva. I just don't think that person exists as a literal statement. That is not a functioning human being... not even minimally functioning. In my head I can only come to "vegetable" when I play that out.

So when this theoretical person breaths it's "for the master"?
When they <insert ANYTHING here> it is "for the master"?

I'm not buying it. That's a theoretical model not an actual human. How the heck did such a person even grow up enough to find or be handed a master? When that baby with no sense of self at all came out of the womb, why did it breath? What did it do next? Why was it's brain not operating as every single other brain in all of nature does and start acquiring data, forming strategies, etc.

I mean seriously, given the nature of Carol's and my relationship we think pretty much along those lines but we are nowhere even close to what Ishtar talks about.


I don't think it's theoretical at all, I just don't think it's absolute in the way you always think about absolutes.

My dog is an example of such a creature. It does what I want, when I want, how I want, because I want. It will not leave my side unless I order it to. When with me, it won't do anything without permission, and there is a whole hoist of things it's trained not to do without permission in my absences either.

That doesn't mean it's a vegetable. It doesn't mean that it's not longer a dog, or no longer thinks dog-thoughts. It doesn't mean that when I drop it off at the kennel, it can no longer autonomously get along with other dogs in a group or play setting. It doesn't meant that it's incapable of reacting to unexpected situations that come up in my absences.

It can do all those things. It's still a dog. But at the same time, it's completely under my control. I am the center of its existence. The choices it is mentally capable of making are there because of the way I have it trained. It's bound by those choices that I've made available to it whether I am there or not, because even if I'm absent it's trained to think of the world in a certain way.
If tomorrow I decide I want a different dog, I can retrain it completely, and end up with it having completely different patterns it follows than it does now.

I love that dog... deeply... and I appreciate it in all it's "dogness" who what it is, and for it's individual qualities. I may go so far to say that I "respect" its nature and the individual attributes unique to it, but respect really would be a poor choice of words in that context.
What I do not do is respect the dog for displaying exactly the behavior I've trained it to display. That behavior is on me, not on it.

I don't respect it for not barking at the mailman, despite it really wanting to do so. Nor would I respect it for barking at the mailman where I to let it have free reign and allow it to do so.

It may be capable, still, of behavior that is autonomous enough to display its mind as a free creature that the day may come that it does something that I'll respect if for. But right now, that sort of behavior is never displayed, so I have no grounds to start building respect for it on.

The same with a slave. I don't exclude the possibility that a slave may be capable of displaying behavior I may come to respect it for. But such an act I wouldn't consider an act of slavery, or slavish behavior. It would be the act of a free person.
If such acts never occur, I simple have no basis to respect a slave.

Somebody who behaves honestly out of self-motivation is somebody I may respect for instance. Somebody who behaves honestly because they fear being punished if they're caught lying, not so much.
With a slave, you wouldn't be able to tell which is what, especially when they have already shown you that there is part of their behavior that is not their own.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 6/7/2013 10:51:53 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 10:46:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

had no relevance to any reasonable discussion because by definition what I'm speculating about is a different species.


But we arent a different species. There are many people who live merely to please someone else in their life. I realize that you may not understand how that works, but it doesnt make it any less of a fact.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 11:00:08 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But we arent a different species. There are many people who live merely to please someone else in their life. I realize that you may not understand how that works, but it doesnt make it any less of a fact.

Again, I am not denying anyone's experience here because honestly the things I generally hear people talk about are totally and completely understandable to me and in fact i resonate with myself solidly. This is why I canned the conversation with Ishtar also until it could be done in a better communication format than text messages. I don't think there is any actual disagreement here. I think what's happening is entirely different conceptual models.... a meta-level disagreement if you will.

I've said this a zillion times... this is like the engineer laughing at the poet and saying, "Dude! If the sun rose in her eyes it would have scorched the entire planet earth and she certainly wouldn't be beautiful anymore." That's a ridiculous thing to do. In other words, I'm "wrong" here and I know it and I don't feel any particular problem understanding tazzy or Nueva. The rub with Ishtar has to do with fine-grained conversations.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 11:15:32 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCy8MpT45gk

Thats me right now

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 11:46:24 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline 		Thanks... you're making me blush... and start analytical procedures to figure out why I'm hard to read... hell I try to keep things simple. It's not like I write like Aswad or anything. I always assumed that my biggest flaw is that I repeat myself too much.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 11:51:41 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I think its because I speak as I type, plainly. Having to deal with patients, many of which had only an 8th grade education, forced me to dummy down at times. So I would often read the gorean slave thread and think "Huh? Just wtf are they saying??" It was more often me than you. The boards became my place for adult conversations... lol.. as bad as that sounds.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 1:48:58 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ok.. lets make this more personal since you arent quite understanding the question.

Do you deserve more respect from your girls than you give them?


Respect is not a more than or less than. It is or it isn't

My girls have earned my respect... Just as I have earned theirs! What we believe we deserve in this case has been earned in each others eyes.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Respect - 6/7/2013 1:54:58 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Lets put this another way....

I have respect for my girls but it is neither more or less than the respect of the friends I have coming over this weekend. They all have my respect. Their is no greater than or less than.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 120
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